What If?
- Thread starter hunter
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M
Malenfant
Guest
So, two months later, is there a response???
Good morning, Hunter,
Have you heard back from Marc Miller on the concept of the limited license as yet? I know you sent him the questions back on March 19th of this year, and was curious as to where things stand right now.
I appreciate any feedback you might be able to give us. In the meantime, good luck, and thanks for all of your hard work.
With Warm Regards,
Jason "Flynn" Kemp
Have you heard back from Marc Miller on the concept of the limited license as yet? I know you sent him the questions back on March 19th of this year, and was curious as to where things stand right now.
I appreciate any feedback you might be able to give us. In the meantime, good luck, and thanks for all of your hard work.
With Warm Regards,
Jason "Flynn" Kemp
Most Definitely Interested in something like this Limited License concept.
Seems to me, even though the OTU is "tied" to the rules, back in the day, the homebrew campaigns were generated without any of that.
So, my spin on it is, if I comrehend, these would be rules, supplements, etc as alternate settings, keeping the "Physics" and "Sciences" of Traveller, but with different histories, governments, etc. Just laid out in the same 8 X 10 subsector format, a la Spinward Marches, or some of the old FASA Sectors, yes?
If that is what you are seeking, I am all for it, both as a player / Ref, and potential contributor of material. I really miss the old school LBB / wild frontier of the "For Use With" licensees days. Not that this will be that. But, I REALLY miss those days.
No offense to d20, but level-based games and the whole skills / feats stacking just doesn't feel "Right" to me, as a player, or referee. CT was my first ever RPG back in 1977, and decades later, it's still my favorite (In it's newest guise as T4).
If others out there have ATU material, I'd love to see it, even if it is a homebrew subsector, or two, with some decent writeups, centered around a common theme, that I could either get ideas from, or use as a launching point for new campaigns.
If it is material that rivals the Environment Series, or new Rules (Such as Robots, Merchant Prince, or High Guard, say, what those did for CT, back in the day) in Style and content, I'd pay cash money, big time, to get access to other Referee's ideas on those kinds of submissions / articles / what have you.
Very Exciting to see this. I hope it comes to fruition.
Seems to me, even though the OTU is "tied" to the rules, back in the day, the homebrew campaigns were generated without any of that.
So, my spin on it is, if I comrehend, these would be rules, supplements, etc as alternate settings, keeping the "Physics" and "Sciences" of Traveller, but with different histories, governments, etc. Just laid out in the same 8 X 10 subsector format, a la Spinward Marches, or some of the old FASA Sectors, yes?
If that is what you are seeking, I am all for it, both as a player / Ref, and potential contributor of material. I really miss the old school LBB / wild frontier of the "For Use With" licensees days. Not that this will be that. But, I REALLY miss those days.
No offense to d20, but level-based games and the whole skills / feats stacking just doesn't feel "Right" to me, as a player, or referee. CT was my first ever RPG back in 1977, and decades later, it's still my favorite (In it's newest guise as T4).
If others out there have ATU material, I'd love to see it, even if it is a homebrew subsector, or two, with some decent writeups, centered around a common theme, that I could either get ideas from, or use as a launching point for new campaigns.
If it is material that rivals the Environment Series, or new Rules (Such as Robots, Merchant Prince, or High Guard, say, what those did for CT, back in the day) in Style and content, I'd pay cash money, big time, to get access to other Referee's ideas on those kinds of submissions / articles / what have you.
Very Exciting to see this. I hope it comes to fruition.
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
Welcome Merxiless! (Jumping right in, I see. 
) This idea may be on the back burner a bit longer - go check out the QLI frontpage for Hunter's note on his current difficulties.
) This idea may be on the back burner a bit longer - go check out the QLI frontpage for Hunter's note on his current difficulties. 
Darkhstarr
SOC-12
It sounds great. The Lord knows with the medical bills the extra money would be great. Personally, for me, Traveller would no longer be a hobby & that would kill the enjoyment. Digging out my Traveller stuff, running games at cons & creating my website has kept me sane-and I would like to stay that way. However, I wish anyone who like to create supplements to Traveller all the best in the world.
Hunter said: 'Would anyone be interested in a 'limited' license to produce and sell their own Traveller compatible products?'
No, I'd like people post them for free. As I see it, most people who play Traveller (I'd love to see an age demographic)are of a standard of intelligence and age in which they have reasonably well paying jobs and see this as a hobby rather than a money making venture.
There is something 'right' about the traveller culture which demands that that we work together to keep it going.
At this stage of the game, I think it's more about survival than pots of money.
ravs
No, I'd like people post them for free. As I see it, most people who play Traveller (I'd love to see an age demographic)are of a standard of intelligence and age in which they have reasonably well paying jobs and see this as a hobby rather than a money making venture.
There is something 'right' about the traveller culture which demands that that we work together to keep it going.
At this stage of the game, I think it's more about survival than pots of money.
ravs
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
A few points ravs...
As you note most people who play Traveller are of a standard of intelligence and age in which they have reasonably well paying jobs.
This means they are sacrificing time and money out of interest to create products to further the game. And the people using these products should and are able to make some small token of renumeration for this effort.
No one is going to be making pots of money on this, maybe it'll pay for the chips and pop for ONE ftf game with enough sales.
The fact that Marc and/or QLI get something from it too also only seems a fair exchange for helping to get the material out there in a professional format.
THAT is how I see the Traveller community working together to keep the game alive. Those who can contribute product do so and get a small token for it, and those who can't contribute product support the game by paying that small token.
The game won't survive, and certainly will never thrive, if we expect it all to be free.
As you note most people who play Traveller are of a standard of intelligence and age in which they have reasonably well paying jobs.
This means they are sacrificing time and money out of interest to create products to further the game. And the people using these products should and are able to make some small token of renumeration for this effort.
No one is going to be making pots of money on this, maybe it'll pay for the chips and pop for ONE ftf game with enough sales.
The fact that Marc and/or QLI get something from it too also only seems a fair exchange for helping to get the material out there in a professional format.
THAT is how I see the Traveller community working together to keep the game alive. Those who can contribute product do so and get a small token for it, and those who can't contribute product support the game by paying that small token.
The game won't survive, and certainly will never thrive, if we expect it all to be free.
I'll publish my material online in order to finance the purchase of more Traveller material (especially T20). Unlike some of the better-off players noted by ravs and far-trader, I'm a cash-deprived student in a country (Israel) where the minimum wage I'll get after completing my (nearly worthless) degree is the equivalent (in local currency) of approximatelt 4 US$ an hour (circa 750 US$ equivalent per month) and the avarage wage is around the equivalent of 1,500 US$ per month. Alot of people (nearly half of the population) get the minimum wage or not much abouve it; the avarage is so high because the upper crust earn extremely high wages.
So, after paying for rent (could be 1,000 US$ per month - that's two thirds of the avarage wage, and for a sucky apartment! If you earn a minimum wage, you'll have to live with partners and/or a working spouse), foiod, electricity, municipal taxes etc, if I want RPG books I could get them in three ways:
1) The generousity (sp?) of others;
2) Second- or Third-hand from people who stop playing a particular game and sell their old books for cheap;
3) And, possibly, publishing my own material online.
What I'm thinking about is publishing the deckplans of a large ship (mining rig? space station? destroyer?) along with its HG stats, crew stats and a few related adventure seeds; the revenue will hopefully buy me T20 with it's supplements.
And the fact that we have both free AND non-free material is the reason our game survives; most of our fan-base works for free (see this forums and Stellar Reaches) but the professional (or, atleast, good hard-copy) products are also required. But money alone is not what holds Traveller togather; money is only a tool. T$R opressed the fan base and built themselves on money and greed alone; do you see T$R around?
EDIT: I don't think I'll publish my Solar Triumvirate setting online, as it has benefited so much from the help and advice of kind and clever people on these forums; I'm opposed to profiting from the work of others (as I feel the Solar Triumvirate was, in many ways, a community effort). Distributing the profit between all involved in relation to their amount of involvement would be difficult. Only with their agreement and encouragement I'll publish this ATU. Otherwise, I'll be more than happy to provide you all with "limited license", pay-for-download quality deckplans and, later on, adventures.
By the way, are alternate rules (such as my consolidated CT chargen system) OK for a limited license?
Or "ship's-locker"-style equipment descriptions taking several pages?
So, after paying for rent (could be 1,000 US$ per month - that's two thirds of the avarage wage, and for a sucky apartment! If you earn a minimum wage, you'll have to live with partners and/or a working spouse), foiod, electricity, municipal taxes etc, if I want RPG books I could get them in three ways:
1) The generousity (sp?) of others;
2) Second- or Third-hand from people who stop playing a particular game and sell their old books for cheap;
3) And, possibly, publishing my own material online.
What I'm thinking about is publishing the deckplans of a large ship (mining rig? space station? destroyer?) along with its HG stats, crew stats and a few related adventure seeds; the revenue will hopefully buy me T20 with it's supplements.
And the fact that we have both free AND non-free material is the reason our game survives; most of our fan-base works for free (see this forums and Stellar Reaches) but the professional (or, atleast, good hard-copy) products are also required. But money alone is not what holds Traveller togather; money is only a tool. T$R opressed the fan base and built themselves on money and greed alone; do you see T$R around?
EDIT: I don't think I'll publish my Solar Triumvirate setting online, as it has benefited so much from the help and advice of kind and clever people on these forums; I'm opposed to profiting from the work of others (as I feel the Solar Triumvirate was, in many ways, a community effort). Distributing the profit between all involved in relation to their amount of involvement would be difficult. Only with their agreement and encouragement I'll publish this ATU. Otherwise, I'll be more than happy to provide you all with "limited license", pay-for-download quality deckplans and, later on, adventures.
By the way, are alternate rules (such as my consolidated CT chargen system) OK for a limited license?
Or "ship's-locker"-style equipment descriptions taking several pages?
I think my first answer was a little too trite, so i'll modify slightly.
For the older more well off players who have had a lot of years of enjoyment from playing Traveller, I think any remuneration ought to be modest, and that Marc Miller and his company ought to get the lion's share. I see it as a way of saying 'thank you' and we'll help you through the hard times. For me, Traveller is a hobby, but for MM and his employees, it's their livlihood.
For the younger, less well off players like employee perhaps the percentage take ought to be higher.
Quite how one assess the percentages, I don't know, but at the end of the day, I suppose it's down to personal choice. Contributors don't have to accept the percentage on offer, they can always accept less - or nothing at all.
I've got no stats to back it up, but I think that Traveller is not as popular as it once was and in the influx of new players is much less than in the heyday of the eighties and nineties - I guess more people play games like 'Eve online' and there is just far more competition in the market.
That was the thinking behind my last post.
Ravs
For the older more well off players who have had a lot of years of enjoyment from playing Traveller, I think any remuneration ought to be modest, and that Marc Miller and his company ought to get the lion's share. I see it as a way of saying 'thank you' and we'll help you through the hard times. For me, Traveller is a hobby, but for MM and his employees, it's their livlihood.
For the younger, less well off players like employee perhaps the percentage take ought to be higher.
Quite how one assess the percentages, I don't know, but at the end of the day, I suppose it's down to personal choice. Contributors don't have to accept the percentage on offer, they can always accept less - or nothing at all.
I've got no stats to back it up, but I think that Traveller is not as popular as it once was and in the influx of new players is much less than in the heyday of the eighties and nineties - I guess more people play games like 'Eve online' and there is just far more competition in the market.
That was the thinking behind my last post.
Ravs
daltoncalford
SOC-12
For a long term, mature player with decades of gaming background, and who has generated alot of free material for the use of the general community, all I can say is that the game will die due to the general feeling of apathy from the current players.
I have found that the joy of the game, although strong enough to keep alot of people coming to these forums, is not strong enough to cause the average player to even test free systems or alternative background material.
I feel sad with the knowledge of the eventual demise of the game.
best regards
Dalton
I have found that the joy of the game, although strong enough to keep alot of people coming to these forums, is not strong enough to cause the average player to even test free systems or alternative background material.
I feel sad with the knowledge of the eventual demise of the game.
best regards
Dalton
Games die {shrug}, people's tastes change and fashions are fickle.
I think the current renewal of the USA's space program, the increase in private ventures looking to space, and the general catch-up of the rest of the world with Russia and the USA will mean that more young people become interested in 'realistic' sci-fi RPGs than ever before.
However, that is balanced against the fact that young people nowadays have more demands on their time, and greater choices for entertainment, than ever before as well.
Personally I think that 2320AD and novel/film licenses are the way the commercial game publishers will survive. Allowing other publishers (read fanboys/girls) to make a buck off the 3rd Imperium and other (essentially dead) settings can only help boost the QuikLink/FarFuture revenue stream, and will encourage people to build material for the 'Long Tail', the huge number of consumers willing to puchase odd or unusual game products.
From Wired magazine:
EDIT: Of course I forgot that in the original post Hunter mentioned that OTU compatibility could not be signalled on the work, only mechanical compatibility. That leaves plenty of room for Long Tail vehicle guides, alternate ship/world building systems etc., but does curtail the amount of usefulness this process has in meeting the need of gamers for their 3rd Imperium fix ... however given the regular 'canon wars' that already take place this is probably a good thing. The sentence "nor any use of OTU material" does bother me (is calling powered armor 'battledress' a violation of this, what about the use of the term "Imperial marines"?). Having said that I would probably produce 3-4 products for very cheap sale ($1-3) immediately.
I think the current renewal of the USA's space program, the increase in private ventures looking to space, and the general catch-up of the rest of the world with Russia and the USA will mean that more young people become interested in 'realistic' sci-fi RPGs than ever before.
However, that is balanced against the fact that young people nowadays have more demands on their time, and greater choices for entertainment, than ever before as well.
Personally I think that 2320AD and novel/film licenses are the way the commercial game publishers will survive. Allowing other publishers (read fanboys/girls) to make a buck off the 3rd Imperium and other (essentially dead) settings can only help boost the QuikLink/FarFuture revenue stream, and will encourage people to build material for the 'Long Tail', the huge number of consumers willing to puchase odd or unusual game products.
From Wired magazine:
In a sense this is what QuickLink are already doing with their Traveller's Aides - this step would just remove the need for them to be so involved in quality control, layout and editing.
EDIT: Of course I forgot that in the original post Hunter mentioned that OTU compatibility could not be signalled on the work, only mechanical compatibility. That leaves plenty of room for Long Tail vehicle guides, alternate ship/world building systems etc., but does curtail the amount of usefulness this process has in meeting the need of gamers for their 3rd Imperium fix ... however given the regular 'canon wars' that already take place this is probably a good thing. The sentence "nor any use of OTU material" does bother me (is calling powered armor 'battledress' a violation of this, what about the use of the term "Imperial marines"?). Having said that I would probably produce 3-4 products for very cheap sale ($1-3) immediately.
Jeff M. Hopper
SOC-14 1K
Personally, I'd like to see if I could make any sales if my material had a price tag attached to it. People will download or grab free stuff just because it is free most of the time, not that the free stuff has any real value. If they give money for it, then it is better proof of its own value IMHO.
The game will not die. Sure, it isn't a mainstream game, not even among RPGers, but it has its own unique appeal, and a well-made T5 will have a good chace of envigorating the game.
Just look at the numbers of daily posts on these forums; Traveller has it's niche.
Just look at the numbers of daily posts on these forums; Traveller has it's niche.
daltoncalford
SOC-12
Ok,
Lets do a quick survey.
How many people have actually gotten into a game of Traveller in the past 5 years? 2 years? 6 months?
I am not talking about making worlds or starships, or dreaming about gaming. I mean a real rpg setting where you have a group of players sitting around exploring the universe?
There are alot of people who talk the theory of the game but I don't know if it would take one hand to count the number of actual players.
Our group started with the concept of traveller, but, since the mechanics are different, the setting is different and the assumptions are different, I no longer say that we play Traveller.
So even though I play about 3 times a month (more if my wife lets me), I would not say that I have been playing Traveller.
best regards
Dalton
Lets do a quick survey.
How many people have actually gotten into a game of Traveller in the past 5 years? 2 years? 6 months?
I am not talking about making worlds or starships, or dreaming about gaming. I mean a real rpg setting where you have a group of players sitting around exploring the universe?
There are alot of people who talk the theory of the game but I don't know if it would take one hand to count the number of actual players.
Our group started with the concept of traveller, but, since the mechanics are different, the setting is different and the assumptions are different, I no longer say that we play Traveller.
So even though I play about 3 times a month (more if my wife lets me), I would not say that I have been playing Traveller.
best regards
Dalton
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Just a quick note, Dalton has now set up a poll for this to run until February 28, 2006. Go there to vote, and post comments there if you like. Thanks.
Do you actually play Traveller?
Do you actually play Traveller?
I game T20 monthly with a group of five players in a tabletop FTF game. I've been doing so for three years now.
I've played T20 since Nov 2002 online as part of an eight-PC PBEM group with Referee, and it has been quite active.
I've played CT since January 2004 online as part of a six-PC(?) PBEM group with Referee, and it has been active, but not as active as the T20 PBEM.
I've run Traveller games at numerous conventions and local game days over the last four years, and attendance is usually very high. In fact, I ran the only Traveller games listed in Gen Con Indy 2005's schedule.
Before I started running T20, I played in a year-long GT game in 2000-2001.
I'm actively playing Traveller, and I know of about eight other people locally who are doing so, as well.
Hope that helps,
Flynn
I've played T20 since Nov 2002 online as part of an eight-PC PBEM group with Referee, and it has been quite active.
I've played CT since January 2004 online as part of a six-PC(?) PBEM group with Referee, and it has been active, but not as active as the T20 PBEM.
I've run Traveller games at numerous conventions and local game days over the last four years, and attendance is usually very high. In fact, I ran the only Traveller games listed in Gen Con Indy 2005's schedule.
Before I started running T20, I played in a year-long GT game in 2000-2001.
I'm actively playing Traveller, and I know of about eight other people locally who are doing so, as well.
Hope that helps,
Flynn
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