What is a Fleet?

[mike wightman]

In attempting to use the Striker power plant design sequence for starships the folks at DGP broke High Guard (they should have read LBB 0 more carefully... )

It doesn't help that to make viable warship designs they authorised bending their own rules.

I am not a fan of the MT design sequence for these reasons - and I haven't even got to the errata yet

 

[robject]

Since High Guard is formula based, what would prevent a 50 billion displacement ton starship (or less than 5 billion displacement ton if the quoted 50 billion tons was mass) from being built using CT High Guard?

Apparently the computer rules limit ship size, and computers are limited by TL. TL9 ships thus max out at around 19,999 tons. So, we can't officially build a 50 billion ton TL9 ship.

Two notes.

1. "Officially" is the only context where this discussion even remotely works, since it's just a game and I could simply handwave one into existence.

2. HG is not the only ruleset out there. But it tends to be foundational for Traveller, and is popular and rather compact and handy.

 

[robject]

In attempting to use the Striker power plant design sequence for starships the folks at DGP broke High Guard (they should have read LBB 0 more carefully... )

Now, wasn't it you who suggested that High Guard may have inadvertently, effectively, switched the maneuver and jump drive percentages as well? So MT compounds the error by breaking power plants too.

We can resurrect one of the threads on "fixing" MegaTraveller...

I am not a fan of the MT design sequence for these reasons

...but even you like some of the things MT vehicle design did.

 

[mike wightman]

Yup, I'm positive that GDW switched the jump and maneuver drive percentages in error when they designed HG

It's an interesting exercise to see what happens to HG designs if you switch the maneuver drive and jump percentages around to more closely match LBB2.

And yes - I do like bits of the MT design sequence, I just don't think they improved on HG for ship design, they broke it

 

[mike wightman]

Here's what you get if you switch m drive and j drive around:

TL--->9   10   11   12   13   14   15
bdg   2    2    2    2    2    2    2
m6    7    7    7    7    7    7    7
ag6  18   18   18   18   12   12    6
f     6    6    6    6    6    6    6
jd    2    2    5    8    8    8   11
f    10   10   20   30   30   30   40
af   40   33   36   26   28   15   16
totl 85   78   94   98   96   83   88

 

[atpollard]

Yup, I'm positive that GDW switched the jump and maneuver drive percentages in error when they designed HG

Personally, I always thought that the FUEL needed to be switched around more than the drives.

 

[mike wightman]

I know what you mean, if the maneuver drive is supposed to be a reaction drive (which it originally was) then jump fuel rates would have been more "realistic" for the drive - a simple switcheroo and done.

Back to teh table I posted last - the numbers are a bit high at TL12 and 13, but I have given them jump 3 as standard. TL12 may want to stick to jump 2, and TL11 jump 1.

Significant note - the Imperium's jump 4 fleet is now doable without major horse trading.

 

[McPerth]

And yes - I do like bits of the MT design sequence, I just don't think they improved on HG for ship design, they broke it

IMHO MT didn't broke the HG system, just changed it (and quite a lot so), some times improving, some others adding needless complexity. The fact to allow you turrets, bays and spinals of the same kind of weapon is a clear improvement, as is the need of munitions for your missile systems, IMHO, the fuel needs are ... ineficient, to say the least (and to keep myslef polite).

Anyway, I just wanted to show people how this affected to ship design and to fleet composition due to that (increased vulnerability, missile costs, etc).

 

[Matt123]

Maybe this isn't part of a fleet discussion, but I've also wondered about High Guard versus the Loeskalth planetoid. It can't be more than TL10, and may only be TL9, yet is estimated to be 50 billion tons, and has jump drives.

Granted that such ships are at best niche designs, HG or its children should still let us build them.

Apparently the computer rules limit ship size, and computers are limited by TL. TL9 ships thus max out at around 19,999 tons. So, we can't officially build a 50 billion ton TL9 ship.

Two notes.

1. "Officially" is the only context where this discussion even remotely works, since it's just a game and I could simply handwave one into existence.

Just to add to this observation, HG is focused on building fleets from advanced but proven technologies. There is scope for a referee (being a ref driven game) to declare a design experimental. More often this comes about through a desire to add better weapons, drives or computers as a one off. But i see no reason an experimental 50 Billion ton TL9 couldn't be built, just expect it to be very very expensive and have very glaring failings that will discourage you from wanting to build a fleet of them, leading me to observe that...

Strategically & tactically it will be a disaster, excepting on Flag Waving missions where it will certainly impress. Only half its weapon systems can fire at any one time (reflecting its size) and it will be prone to weapon scrubbing from swarms of craft ranging in size from 10tn to 10000tn. At higher tech levels where "invulnerable Armour" comes into play, it will be out Meson Gunned by a factor of 1 to thousands. (I'm being generous here, a single 50,000,000,000 ship might equate to hundreds of thousands of 50,000tn ships all carrying Meson Guns.)

I think this falls under the category of Leader Folly's , yes they should happen -rarely- but there is a reason why most people with the credits spend them elsewhere.

 

[aramis]

IMHO MT didn't broke the HG system, just changed it (and quite a lot so), some times improving, some others adding needless complexity. The fact to allow you turrets, bays and spinals of the same kind of weapon is a clear improvement, as is the need of munitions for your missile systems, IMHO, the fuel needs are ... ineficient, to say the least (and to keep myslef polite).

The MT fuel rates for fusion are taken straight from Striker.

 

[Carlobrand]

In attempting to use the Striker power plant design sequence for starships the folks at DGP broke High Guard (they should have read LBB 0 more carefully... ) ...

Don't think of it as broken. Think of it as yet another Traveller parallel universe. There's the small-ship universe, the Evil Empire universe, the High Guard big-ship universe, the MegaTrav Imperial Collapsiverse, the GURPS No-it-didn't-iverse, and so forth, and so forth. You can even play them as parallel universes and really blow your players' minds.

To quote a certain pigtailed lass: "Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore."

 

[Gray Pennell]

Don't think of it as broken. Think of it as yet another Traveller parallel universe. There's the small-ship universe, the Evil Empire universe, the High Guard big-ship universe, the MegaTrav Imperial Collapsiverse, the GURPS No-it-didn't-iverse, and so forth, and so forth. You can even play them as parallel universes and really blow your players' minds.

To quote a certain pigtailed lass: "Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore."

So its RIFTS Traveller we are playing now

 

[atpollard]

So its RIFTS Traveller we are playing now

If you ever tried to use parts of Striker with CT LBB2 and High Guard ... they you know that we always have been playing RIFTS Traveller.

 

[Carlobrand]

If you ever tried to use parts of Striker with CT LBB2 and High Guard ... they you know that we always have been playing RIFTS Traveller.

Oh yeah, big time!

How else can one reconcile the Book-2, High Guard and MegaTrav fighters?

 

[Carlobrand]

Speculating further on the issue of High Guard verses the canon fleet, I see four options:

1. Separate them. Treat the High Guard combat system as a distinct game apart from the canon universe.

2. Modify High Guard to favor a canon fleet. Easiest solution is to either eliminate those multiple criticals, making the spinals less powerful, or to revise the more crippling damage results. For example, it should not be possible to shatter all fuel tanks - a sensible ship designer would install multiple separate and dispersed tanks to minimize the chances of such an event. So, say each such event destroys 10% of the ship's fuel tankage. Similarly, modify the crew hit rule so a single such hit doesn't cripple the ship.

3. Modify the canon fleet to reflect High Guard. Forget the dreadnoughts - the fleet consists of light cruisers and gerbil/hamster-types.

4. Assume some third factor is involved. Perhaps fleet ships factor in ammunition, though High Guard does not. Perhaps the big ships' recycling systems benefit from economies of scale, with on-board waste recycling and food synthesis facilities allowing for longer deployments away from supporting bases and ports. Perhaps the Emperor's just got a fascination with big ships.

 

[mike wightman]

Yet again - play the game.

BBs have a use - they can carry maximum armour, either loads of repulsors to make them hampsterproof or loads of missiles to make them their own hampsters. You need a meson gun to take out a BB. Do you put that meson gun on a BB or a disposable light cruiser?

(A design I played with was to fit a factor J meson gum into a 5kt hull - big BBs could carry these as secondary craft.)

What's missing from HG combat are rules for escort ships actually escorting. Instead of moving your largest ship into the "to be fired at" position you move your capital ship plus its escorts. And you allow those escorts to use their weapons in active defence of the capital ship..

You could also split your single line of battle into 3 - main line and flanks.

HG1 almost had a movement system, all hints of it were dropped from HG2

 

[aramis]

Yet again - play the game.

BBs have a use - they can carry maximum armour, either loads of repulsors to make them hampsterproof or loads of missiles to make them their own hampsters. You need a meson gun to take out a BB. Do you put that meson gun on a BB or a disposable light cruiser?

(A design I played with was to fit a factor J meson gum into a 5kt hull - big BBs could carry these as secondary craft.)

What's missing from HG combat are rules for escort ships actually escorting. Instead of moving your largest ship into the "to be fired at" position you move your capital ship plus its escorts. And you allow those escorts to use their weapons in active defence of the capital ship..

You could also split your single line of battle into 3 - main line and flanks.

HG1 almost had a movement system, all hints of it were dropped from HG2

For all it's flaws, MT's version has a movement system, which renders escorts able to actually escort and screen... but it increases the play complexity considerably, and that's without it being quasi-newtonian movement.

 

[McPerth]

For all it's flaws, MT's version has a movement system, which renders escorts able to actually escort and screen... but it increases the play complexity considerably, and that's without it being quasi-newtonian movement.

Aside from added complexity, as I already posted before, try if you dare in large fleet engagements to use movement rules. you'd need lots of game space and counters.

 

[Gray Pennell]

Speculating further on the issue of High Guard verses the canon fleet, I see four options:

1. Separate them. Treat the High Guard combat system as a distinct game apart from the canon universe.

2. Modify High Guard to favor a canon fleet. Easiest solution is to either eliminate those multiple criticals, making the spinals less powerful, or to revise the more crippling damage results. For example, it should not be possible to shatter all fuel tanks - a sensible ship designer would install multiple separate and dispersed tanks to minimize the chances of such an event. So, say each such event destroys 10% of the ship's fuel tankage. Similarly, modify the crew hit rule so a single such hit doesn't cripple the ship.

3. Modify the canon fleet to reflect High Guard. Forget the dreadnoughts - the fleet consists of light cruisers and gerbil/hamster-types.

4. Assume some third factor is involved. Perhaps fleet ships factor in ammunition, though High Guard does not. Perhaps the big ships' recycling systems benefit from economies of scale, with on-board waste recycling and food synthesis facilities allowing for longer deployments away from supporting bases and ports. Perhaps the Emperor's just got a fascination with big ships.

As my ship manifesto stated I went with number 3. Dropped the big ships down to the 35-50K mark. Cruisers 35-15K Fleet escorts and subsector guard ie coast guard reserve fleet 15K-5k player scale 5K-0tons. Keeping the big ships at the 30-50K tons still gives them some power. Would you want to run a Free trader up against a 50K bb I think not. Second it forces specializations my Tigress is a pure BB now not a carrier and BB.

 

[tanksoldier]

subsector guard ie coast guard reserve fleet 15K-5k

Not to derail the thread, but I've never understood why people assume the Reserve Fleet is pirate chasing and grandma-saving.

Small ships are of little use as a "reserve" in wartime.

Large ships are of little use chasing pirates in peacetime.

IMO the "reserve fleet" should be large battlewagons maintained at reduced levels of readiness and manned by reservists for maneuvers and wars.

IMTU the subsector fleet operates small patrol craft AND maintains the reserve fleet of heavy ships and reserve personnel, including monitoring and certifying the Colonial Fleet elements in the subsector. They call up and train reserve personnel, activate reserve and mothballed vessels and call up the Colonial Fleet levy to feed ships and personnel to the sector fleet as well as coordinating convoy escorts and the like with light units at the subsector level.

The subsector also monitors and certifies the Unified Army elements available to levy from member planets. Anyone familiar how the National Guard system works in the US (dual status National Guard units available for federal call up and state militia units NOT available for federal call up) will see how Colonial Fleet and Unified Army elements work IMTU and how they are similar to but distinct from dedicated planetary defense forces.

The Sector Fleet has heavier, newer warships and conducts border patrols, shows the flag and provides local forces for attack and counter attack. The HQ coordinating a major war would be the sector-level fleet command. Many wars were fought and won by sector and subsector fleet elements before Imperial Fleet units could even arrive. Sectors also control most initial training and basing facilities to increase training standardization. Academies and boot camps operate at the sector level. This is what most people think of as "the Navy".

The main Imperial Fleet includes the Home Fleet and Domain Fleets and provides a check on sector fleet commander ambitions as well as providing heavy reinforcements to sector fleets in the event of a major war. The chain of command for Imperial Marine elements also extends all the way to the Domain level. Commanders at lower levels have operational control of Fleet Marine Force units and detachments at various levels, but their chain of command and ultimate loyalty extends all the way to the Emperor.

System and subsector forces are almost entirely defensive in nature and capability, sector forces provide local attack or counter attack capability while the Imperium main punch is held at the Domain and Home Fleet levels... both as a central reserve to the Empire's huge border and as a check on lower level element's ambitions.