What is a Fleet?

[McPerth]

Speculating further on the issue of High Guard verses the canon fleet, I see four options:

4. Assume some third factor is involved. Perhaps fleet ships factor in ammunition, though High Guard does not. Perhaps the big ships' recycling systems benefit from economies of scale, with on-board waste recycling and food synthesis facilities allowing for longer deployments away from supporting bases and ports. Perhaps the Emperor's just got a fascination with big ships.

IMHO there's a third factor involved, just not commonly used: crew quality (skills).

Probably your fleet has a handful of individuals that are Ship Tactics 5 and another handful that are Pilot 5.

If you concentrate them on very powerful ships (let's say your Tigris), they suddenly have +2 to computer size and +2 to agility, so making your gebil/hamster quite less powerful (they hit you on a 10+: base 2, DM +2 for size, -8 for modified agility, -2 per modified computer size), and penetrate your nuclear damper on a 12 (base 10, DM -2 per modified computer size.

In the meanwhile, your Tigris will be using its own missile batteries (with its +2 computer size) against your gebil/hamsters to quite good effect (to hit is 6+: base 2, DM +2 per modified computer size , -6 per agility and penetrate even a factor 9 nuclear damper on a 8+.

Sure, some of you gebil/hamsters will have similar officers, but they are only a handful, so greatly reducing the numbers advantage (and probably losing them quite more often that those on the Tigris)...

 

[mike wightman]

I agree with you on this. The crew quality/PC skill level is rarely factored in and is totally absent from TCS tournament play.

But in the "real" world you will indeed have veteran crews and elite crews.

I've posted this house rule a few times, I often use:

green -1
regular 0
veteran +1
elite +2

the DMs are derived from the skills of the experience level of the crew.

 

[McPerth]

I agree with you on this. The crew quality/PC skill level is rarely factored in and is totally absent from TCS tournament play.

But in the "real" world you will indeed have veteran crews and elite crews.

I've posted this house rule a few times, I often use:

green -1
regular 0
veteran +1
elite +2

the DMs are derived from the skills of the experience level of the crew.

But the only skills that are told in HG (at least in HG2) to have effect are Ships Tactics and Pilot, gunnery not having any (I guess as ships have more gunners than tacticians or pilots, it is assumed to have less influence).

And ,assuming the ratio for high skill individuals is more or less constant in various fleets, it can be best used by concentring it in some powerful ships that to dispersing it among small ones. And this may give sense to those large, powerful ships, even without changing any rule.

 

[mike wightman]

You missed out Fleet Tactics

I only apply the DMs to the initiative roll, effective computer model and effective agility. You could easily use the -1 and halve it rule for gunnery and screens to increase their effective factor.

And yes I agree, your veteran and elite crews are going to be used for your most powerful ships - in most cases.

Escort class ships are where junior officers learn their trade, with the most skilled being promoted to the capital ships.

 

[McPerth]

You missed out Fleet Tactics

I didn't, I just treat it diferently, as only one individual with it affects the whole fleet, so having no influence in the gebils/hamsters vs battleship balance. Of course it will influence the combat (if you can fight at close range, the -1 to the missiles will affect more your gebils than your Tigris, in the scenario told about before), but will do it regardless the kind of vessels you have. In this way (inititative ) we must take for given the advantage is for the Gebils, due to superior numbers.

The ship's tactics/pilot skills, OTOH, affecting only one ship each individual, will be best used in powerful ships, so affecting the Gebil/hamster vs battleship balance.

 

[Carlobrand]

IMHO there's a third factor involved, just not commonly used: crew quality (skills).

Probably your fleet has a handful of individuals that are Ship Tactics 5 and another handful that are Pilot 5.

If you concentrate them on very powerful ships (let's say your Tigris), they suddenly have +2 to computer size and +2 to agility, so making your gebil/hamster quite less powerful (they hit you on a 10+: base 2, DM +2 for size, -8 for modified agility, -2 per modified computer size), and penetrate your nuclear damper on a 12 (base 10, DM -2 per modified computer size.

In the meanwhile, your Tigris will be using its own missile batteries (with its +2 computer size) against your gebil/hamsters to quite good effect (to hit is 6+: base 2, DM +2 per modified computer size , -6 per agility and penetrate even a factor 9 nuclear damper on a 8+.

Sure, some of you gebil/hamsters will have similar officers, but they are only a handful, so greatly reducing the numbers advantage (and probably losing them quite more often that those on the Tigris)...

D'oh! Why didn't I think of that? I like that! I like that a lot!

There are alway going to be fewer of the best-of-the-best pilots and so forth, so fleetwide you concentrate them on your biggest, baddest ships, and it offsets their weaknesses while enhancing their already significant strengths even further.

I'd have to figure some way of calculating percentages - how many elite-skilled personnel out of a given population of pilots/gunners/etc. - but I can see that being a significant factor in a campaign setting that would predispose players to field a few battlewagons to get best use of those elites.

 

[McPerth]

D'oh! Why didn't I think of that? I like that! I like that a lot!

There are alway going to be fewer of the best-of-the-best pilots and so forth, so fleetwide you concentrate them on your biggest, baddest ships, and it offsets their weaknesses while enhancing their already significant strengths even further.

I'd have to figure some way of calculating percentages - how many elite-skilled personnel out of a given population of pilots/gunners/etc. - but I can see that being a significant factor in a campaign setting that would predispose players to field a few battlewagons to get best use of those elites.

Glad to see you like it. It's been there at least since HG2 was published , but as I said, too often forgotten or not used.

See how it changes a TCS contest if, following the 200 pilot limits, it says (e.g., numbers taken out of my hat) 10 pilots and 10 tactics with skill level 3, 2 each with skill level 5. Suddenly, fighters are less powerful, as are gebil/hamsters, and large ships more attractive, aren't they?

Note: see that I leave Fleet Tactics out again, as only one per side cancels any advantage

 

[Vladika]

Instead of moving your largest ship into the "to be fired at" position you move your capital ship plus its escorts. And you allow those escorts to use their weapons in active defence (sic) of the capital ship..

I have always done this simply because it makes sense! Cannon constantly mentions escorts and even though the rules don't define their abilities common sense (and real world experience) does.

 

[AndreaV]

Interesting aside here. For various reasons, I had to work out what the 'average' Imperial navy presence was per subsector. I did the math's and it comes out ON AVERAGE the Imperial navy has about TCr 2 income per subsector per annum. This means the average Imperial navy presence in a subsector is about TCr 20. Split this 50/50 between active and reserve fleet, take off say 20% for supporting depots, independent squadrons, creating and maintaining TL15 fleet bases and shipyards on TL5-14 worlds, as well as the odd Cr 3,000 chair stopper or ball end hammer. This gives an active fleet around TCr 8 of shipping

Working on 30% capital ships, 15% heavy cruisers, 15% light cruisers and 40% everything else (following the rough fleet composition laid out in S9) you have the average Imperial fleet with about 24 BB, 45-50 CA and maybe 90-100 CL.

 

[aramis]

Interesting aside here. For various reasons, I had to work out what the 'average' Imperial navy presence was per subsector. I did the math's and it comes out ON AVERAGE the Imperial navy has about TCr 2 income per subsector per annum. This means the average Imperial navy presence in a subsector is about TCr 20. Split this 50/50 between active and reserve fleet, take off say 20% for supporting depots, independent squadrons, creating and maintaining TL15 fleet bases and shipyards on TL5-14 worlds, as well as the odd Cr 3,000 chair stopper or ball end hammer. This gives an active fleet around TCr 8 of shipping

Working on 30% capital ships, 15% heavy cruisers, 15% light cruisers and 40% everything else (following the rough fleet composition laid out in S9) you have the average Imperial fleet with about 24 BB, 45-50 CA and maybe 90-100 CL.

which would be 2-4 Batrons, 4-8 CA CruRons, and 12-15 CL CruRons... About the mix shown in 5FW... which is 16 colonial squadrons, and 9 regular.... for half a sector.

 

[AndreaV]

I assumed 3% of the GDP average for military spending, 30% of that goiing to the Imperium, and 60% of that going to the navy. Sadly the annual Imperial Navy budget per subsector does come out around TCr 2. Which even being generous with waste and special purposes, still gives you the average Imperial fleet having over 20 squadrons of capital ships and cruisers.

 

[rancke]

I assumed 3% of the GDP average for military spending, 30% of that goiing to the Imperium, and 60% of that going to the navy. Sadly the annual Imperial Navy budget per subsector does come out around TCr 2. Which even being generous with waste and special purposes, still gives you the average Imperial fleet having over 20 squadrons of capital ships and cruisers.

I'm not going to dig out my old calculations, but the figures I came up with was that at a ratio of 1 batron to 3 crurons, the canonical 20,000 combat vessels (plus a figure tacked on to covers the auxiliaries -- I think it was 10%) came to about half the available budget. Assuming that bases and logistics used up the other half results in a picture not impossibly difficult to suspend disbelief in.


Hans

 

[flykiller]

the single most delineating concern for any fleet is its tasking. a fleet tasked with deterring attack by the zhodani will have a composition, basing, and manning different from that tasked with deterring pirate activity. backwater assignments may be allocated obsolete ships and substandard crew. repair and resupply may be its own fleet operating independently of the line fleet, and there is no reason for resupply ships to be at the same tech level as a line fleet. even in a regular line fleet there will be tasking such as scouting that operates semi-independently of the rest of the line fleet. and subsector fleets will vary according to their capabilities and needs and expectations of inter-operability.