What is a Naval Base?

[rancke]

C3 (Command/Control/Communications) can't be shore side - the ships are often 2 weeks each way out of contact. (4 weeks round trip). More correctly, C3 has to be distributed - Commodores will need the C3 on site for their flotillas, but Fleet HQ won't be doing actual Command/Control. It will be a coordination center, but it can't be doing command effectively in real-time.

I just provided a historical example of admirals who did mostly stay put and directed their ships to cometh and goeth: Age of Sail admirals on foreign stations. Do you think the analogy is flawed or are you talking about something different?

(Admiral on foreign station ~ Admiral of Numbered fleet
Governor ~ Subsector duke
Provincial capital ~ Subsector capital
Ships assigned to station ~ Numbered fleet
Admiralty back home ~ Sector admiral)

I repeat that I'm talking about peacetime deployment, not wartime. A fleet admiral will sit in his HQ (or in his flagship in orbit around the world; either way he isn't going anywhere) with some of his squadrons in orbit. Other squadrons (or half-squadrons or divisions) will be stationed at other bases in the subsector with lesser ships patrolling or picketing.

Not that all fleet admirals will be moving aroung like flies in a bottle even in wartime. Many admirals assigned to defend an area will pick the world where his heaviest squadrons will do the most good and send out smaller forces to cover other worlds. Such an admiral will be away from his HQ, sure, but he's going to try to be someplace strategically valuable.

Incidentally, the movement mechanics in FFW probably make fleets and admirals more active than they were in "reality". In FFW you can't move squadrons around without a fleet counter and an admiral. In "reality" you can order a squadron to go somewhere else and expect them to do so without having their hands held by their admiral.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

Around 37KTd. Mind you... we can work it out mathematically:

TL11
2% Bridge, 36% armor, 1500Td for 500EP, 18% hull additional PP, 17% hull MD6, 5000Td Weapon, 10 tons command section quarters, 30Td Gun Power Engineer Quarters, 0.72% Hull PP Crew Quarters, 30Td for 15 gunners, 0.6% Service Crew Quarters, Model 9 at 13Td, +36Td Comp Power. +500Td and +6% Fuel

1500+5000+10+30+30+13+36+500+H*(2+36+18+17+0.72+0.6+6)%=H
7119+H*0.8032=H
7119=H-(H*0.8032)
7119=h*0.1968
7119/0.1968=H
36173.78=H

We need to round several of these up, so at least 36200Td.

We can get smaller at TL 12
TL12
2% Bridge, 26% armor, 1800Td for 600EP, 18% hull additional PP, 17% hull MD6, 2000Td Weapon, 10 tons command section quarters, 30Td Gun Power Engineer Quarters, 0.72% Hull PP Crew Quarters, 30Td for 15 gunners, 0.6% Service Crew Quarters, Model 9 at 13Td, +36Td Comp Power. +600Td and +6% Fuel

1800+2000+10+30+30+13+36+500+H*(2+26+18+17+0.72+0.6+6)%=H
4419+H*70.32=H
4419=H*0.2968
4419/0.2968=H
14888.81=H

So around 15 KTd. Note that the massive reduction in weapon size and armor size at TL12 is a MAJOR change, and drops LOTS of support costs.

TL 13 gets even UGLIER!!!

Oh, crud. I forgot. COmputer TL... Saves a few dozen tons. I'm too lazy to refigure the above in full. but we need only 5 Td computer and 9Td for PP, and 3 Td for its fuel. 17 instead of 49; 32 tons less.

TL 11: 7087/0.1968=H
36011.178 Td. Round it up to about 36100 Td.

TL 12 - 7Td and 15Td PP, 49-22=27.
4392/0.2968=H
14797.8Td - round up to about 14900.

2% Bridge, 28% armor, 1400Td for 700EP, 12% hull additional PP, 17% hull, 1000Td Weapon, 10 tons command section quarters, 30Td Gun Power Engineer Quarters, 0.72% Hull PP Crew Quarters, 30Td for 15 gunners, 0.6% Service Crew Quarters, Model 7 at 9Td, +14Td Comp Power+7Td Comp Fuel. +600Td and +6% Fuel

1400+1000+10+30+30+9+14+7+500+H*(2+28+12+17+0.72+0.6+6)%=H
3000+h*0.6632=h
3000/0.3368=H
4523 Td, round it up to 4600Td.

TL 14 actually gets bigger... more EP required, no PP shrinkage, more armor.

And Oh, grud... I forgot MD crews... 0.34% of hull.

All crew are presumed double occupancy.

So wow it drops from 36k tons to 4.6k? At 4600 I can see quite a few in use, especially staffed by maintenance bots to do much of the fiddly work and give the crew more endurance: this would work well with mines (IMTU just missiles).

 

[McPerth]

I sort of had that kind of thought as well; however it might not be so. Every base might be different.

Probably they are, as they must adapt themselves to the conditions, but I guess they have quite similar parts and organization, and most important, similar mission.

As for how fleets during the FFW got repaired. I wasn't there, so I can't say definitively, but one option is for the fleet to carry the equivalent of a repair yard and supply warehouse with it. Fuel is more critical than either of those, and presumably fleets can refuel.

Of course, this is a possibility, but, AFAIK, there is no references to such support ships (mobile repair yards) in canon, nor rules to build them.

That means the Fifth Frontier War board game would not precisely be the same as the OTU. But then, neither is the Imperium board game.

Sure some abstractions and simplifications must have been done in FFW board game to make it playable, but I was not talking about the game, but about its history.

I see no way that in the game sieges like Efate's or Jewell's may be represented, nor how a planetary assault may lead to a months long battle (as Invasion of Earth represents), but in its canon history, one fleet was trapped in each of those sieges, and Zhodani troops even achieved a beachhead in Jewell, and those fleets kept fighting as cohesive units along with the planetary navies. I assume that their support came form the bases in the systems, and, as none of those planets is TL15 (Efate TL13, Jewell TL12), I assume they had quite larger stock of spares and munitions.

On the other hand, bases on the "crust" would be more capable than interior bases, assuming a "crustal" defense strategy.

Oh, please, we already discussed the crust defense vs defense in depth issue some months ago...

I'm not sure if an Imperial Navy base qualifies as a starport, or not. It seems to require a class A or B starport, so to me it would be an adjunct, and would use those facilities (shipyard and fuel, for example). Otherwise, why require a starport?

In MT, IN bases can only be generated in systems with type 'A' or type 'B' starports already. MT space combat section related to damage control and repair makes it clear that type 'A' is needed to repair jump drives whereas both type 'A' and type 'B' can repair everything else. MT also makes it clear that tech level applies as a limit to what can be repaired; a tech 13 starport cannot repair a tech 15 system although the rules mention that the ref can make exceptions to this if desired... a copout imho.

Not only in MT, in CT and T4 naval bases may only be at class A and B starports (I cannot talk about other versions, but I guess this will be more or less tha same. Even through...

-In HT (also MT), there's a slight possiblity that naval bases might survive the loss of the starport quality to lower than B and still be rated as naval bases.

-In Rebelion book (also MT) there is a list of imperial Depots (that are described as a sort of specialized bases, where most design, major building and testing, training and refits (along other missions) are done for IN, pages 33-34), yet, 3 of them have B rated starports, one of them has C rated starport (Diaspora) and another even has D rated starport (Lishum), so hinting that their IN starports are not accessible to public, but must be there (and A rated) to perform the missions the depots have, according to its description.

 

[samuelvss]

It is that personal experience that taught me that there is NO set standard for the size and facilities of a base, nor for how that base is (or isn't) tied into the local economic structure.

Each base is unique unto itself, and designed to fit the local conditions and mission in and for which it is placed.

I would agree!

I think it is useful to look at current facilities, and how they handle their functions, to extrapolate how the DIVERSE bases of the IN, IISS and other arms might function.

You gotta train: you do it at home (in your garrison or "on base") or elsewhere (another base, or "out in the black").

You gotta refit: that will be at a base of some kind; all are not suitable

You gotta have places for dependants: if you are securing some bases, then this is a good place for them

You have to have some hardened facilities: likely some parts of some bases are; highly likely most parts of most bases aren't (the whole idea of mobile forces is to go fight somewhere far from where momma's changing diapers).

You gotta control your facilities: having to risk/spend lives and treasure to set up a permanent facility means you'll likely have the more permanent improvements made only where the control of the dirt is vested over at least a term of years in your gov't

 

[pendragonman]

Why not? In the Marches for example, why is 50-some bases serving 700 or 800 warships and an unknown number of auxiliaries among a population of 250-some billion Imperial citizens in 272 systems impractical? There's no lack of room in orbit, and there's a good argument that the IN's budget has way more money than we can account for with the fleet numbers suggested by canon. The pattern of bases puts most of Imperial space within Jump-4 of a naval base, which would seem to be useful from a logistics point of view.

What about supporting just one Tigress, just one not a whole Batron, at every single base? You are saying that every single base, regardless of location, size of base and size of supporting population, can fully rearm and repair a Tigress? So every single one has a shipyard capable of refitting a Tigress? Really? Every one can fully deal with a 500 kiloton warship? Really? Wow.

 

[pendragonman]

C3 (Command/Control/Communications) can't be shore side - the ships are often 2 weeks each way out of contact. (4 weeks round trip). More correctly, C3 has to be distributed - Commodores will need the C3 on site for their flotillas, but Fleet HQ won't be doing actual Command/Control. It will be a coordination center, but it can't be doing command effectively in real-time.

And yet we have a real-world analog of our communications issues, where Fleet control was on the shore---Every single navy in the world up until the advent of radio.

Yes, Admirals Commodores and even individual Captains had considerable latitude, but the penalties for failure were way more extreme than they are now. For evidence look at the historical records from Whitehall for the Napoleonic Wars period. Strategic control of the fleets was the same then as now (when we have near instantaneous communication)-done on shore. Tactical control is the same now as then, except LESS so (when we have near instantaneous communication almost every decision can get approval from shore) as now there is less local latitude, less open ended orders if you will.

I suspect the communication issues in the 3I to be very similar to Age of Sail: lots and lots of small ships running messages back and forth, lots of local latitude tactically.

Ultimate Strategic Control onshore.

 

[mike wightman]

What about supporting just one Tigress, just one not a whole Batron, at every single base? You are saying that every single base, regardless of location, size of base and size of supporting population, can fully rearm and repair a Tigress? So every single one has a shipyard capable of refitting a Tigress? Really? Every one can fully deal with a 500 kiloton warship? Really? Wow.

Nope - we are saying that every single base can support a fleet composed of every tigress in the Marches if that is how the fleet is put together.

The base can refuel the Tigresses (8 to a BatRon), rearm them, re-equip fighter losses, even help rebuild them if necessary.

I think we may now be seeing where the IN budget really goes...

 

[McPerth]

What about supporting just one Tigress, just one not a whole Batron, at every single base? You are saying that every single base, regardless of location, size of base and size of supporting population, can fully rearm and repair a Tigress? So every single one has a shipyard capable of refitting a Tigress? Really? Every one can fully deal with a 500 kiloton warship? Really? Wow.

IMHO, the alernative is your Tigresses needing to retreat to the Depot ( the closer in Deneb, only about 30 parsecs away from the main lines in Regina) to perform even minor repairs.

So, a Tigriss with its jump drive damaged to jump 2 will stay out of commission for about 15 weeks (probably more, as finidng a route where it can jump each week is nearly impossible), 1-4 weeks under repair, and 8 weeks more to reach the lines again... about 6 months in total. And to have its annual overhaul, it surely needs to retreat to depot again (this time the way to depot will only take about 8 weeks), so being 18 weeks a year (about 1/3 of the time) out of commission just for its maintenance...

This way, I guess the Tigriss efective range from a depot would be about 8-12 parsecs, as more than that means losing it too much time only for annual maintenance (as more than 3 jumps away from your maintenance port means needing 8 weeks a year to perform its overhaul, and so a maximum readiness level of about 85%).

 

[Ishmael]

Not only in MT, in CT and T4 bses may only be at class A and B starports (I cannot talk about other versions, but I guess this will be more or less tha same. Even through...

I point this out as it resolves the issue of repairs, etc. for all IN bases.

-In HT (also MT), there's a slight possiblity that naval bases might survive the loss of the starport quality to lower than B and still be rated as naval bases.

It might under certain conditions fall to a type 'C' ( on 7+ from 2d6 for naval bases ), but to fall further would mean elimination of all bases in the system. But in my opinion, that would mean that the base in question had been affected badly and would not have all its capabilities available.

-In Rebelion book (also MT) there is a list of imperial Depots (that are described as a sort of spacialized bases, where most design, major building and testing, training and reffits (along other missions) are done for IN, pages 33-34), yet, 3 of them have B rated starports, one of them has C rated starport (Diaspora) and another even has D rated starport (Lishum), so hinting that their IN starports are not accessible to public, but must be there (and A rated) to perform the missions the depots have, according to its description.

Here is something interesting concerning depots
http://www.angelfire.com/empire2/savage/1WorldOrder/Imperium/Depots_Imperium.html

 

[Garyius2003]

Nope - we are saying that every single base can support a fleet composed of every tigress in the Marches if that is how the fleet is put together.

The base can refuel the Tigresses (8 to a BatRon), rearm them, re-equip fighter losses, even help rebuild them if necessary.

I think we may now be seeing where the IN budget really goes...

I agree. A base, to be effective, needs to be able to rearm the real warships and do some basic repairs. Traveller makes rearming easy since, even in Mongoose, you really only have two sizes of missiles and two kinds of caster rounds. There has to be surface warehouses for quick rearms for a cruiser who came through after blowing a few salvos in a pirate action-- or more likely training. In any sane military that means some sort of larger ammo dump, likely tunnels and stabilized atmosphere, and a crew doing computer assisted robot rotation for the missiles (FIFO) to the ready distribute warehouses. The tunnel complex would have repair parts, ration and life support supplies, spares (modules, small craft, turret weapons), also FIFO.

These would be the bases, and they have the ability to handle a Batron or a Cruron or two, even if they are in the crust. They need to do a complete refill of the ammo, and replace the lost (armor, turret weapons, jump gridding, sensors), and fix the damaged drive. The base would likely do that on its own for the one cruiser that gets stung yearly n a pirate doggy suicide run, and would draft (contract) the starport and yard into doing it for the three cruisers and the battleship that were heavily damaged. Regina needs to have more stuff, many many reloads and spares, much more repair ability for a longer period (or Glisten or Mora...).

The reason the PCs get their ship drafted into a convoy is that the log planners realized that Base X is likely going to need full reloads for two Batrons, plus four Crurons, and they don't have it, leaving them probably short by half. (Probably because they likely already emptied their T-AKEs, command will find out for sure long after it is too late to use the information.) 2.5KdT needs to get shipped there now. The 10 sailors and 8 marines they have as pax are nice to have for the receiving base, but thy are also there to make sure the PCs don't start wondering what 75 dTons of missiles would bring on the open market if there was a misjump.

Other member worlds have some navy: recruiters, starport liaisons, intel, reserve unit I&I staff, industrial purchasing departments, contracting unit to purchase and move life support and chow into the cruiser that rotates monthly or the CEs on patrol. They can't fix (or cause to be fixed) real warships or provide a squadron level rearm.

 

[aramis]

So wow it drops from 36k tons to 4.6k? At 4600 I can see quite a few in use, especially staffed by maintenance bots to do much of the fiddly work and give the crew more endurance: this would work well with mines (IMTU just missiles).

Those are essentially montors, tho'. Agility 6, computer max, best armor for TL. If all you want is a paper tiger to make some admiral grease his stick over, yyou can get TL13 down to about 3KTd... 1000Td PP, 806EP=1612Td, 80Td Bridge, Comp 6... 7t, and 806Td fuel Right about 2800Td. It's useless, fragile, and a type S is a serious threat....

 

[robject]

IMHO, the alternative is your Tigresses needing to retreat to the Depot ( the closer in Deneb, only about 30 parsecs away from the main lines in Regina) to perform even minor repairs.

So, a Tigress with its jump drive damaged to jump 2 will stay out of commission for about 15 weeks (probably more, as finding a route where it can jump each week is nearly impossible)[...]

So I have a question for the guys here who know, because I don't: how often do the U.S. carrier groups have to rotate back to a base for resupply?

(A more interesting question: how would they be deployed for a big war, and how would they deal with taking damage?)

 

[pendragonman]

So I have a question for the guys here who know, because I don't: how often do the U.S. carrier groups have to rotate back to a base for resupply?

(A more interesting question: how would they be deployed for a big war, and how would they deal with taking damage?)

I don't know about them rotating for resupply so much as crew rotation and refits.

 

[Gray Pennell]

I have put fleet training at the Sector level. Its a good question about dependents. As a military brat I find that most rear bases make room for dependents. Even gulf courses and bars. But they are not deployed within the fleet like STnG.

 

[Garyius2003]

During sustained combat in Vietnam the US fleet was good for about one to one-and-a-half months being sustained from ships in the operations area.

These were for repeated deployments, with runs to Subic for parts, work, and time off for the crew, during those breaks.

The more recent wars have seen ship deployments this long, but without the sustained cycles of combat from the fleet.

The US is also seeking more forward basing options, we lost Subic, but seem to want some of it back now. We also now have Guam as a semi-major base, and have really ramped Sasebo back up as a base the last 20 years.

The 3I does not need fuel the same way we do now, and their missiles are one time use as opposed to trying to keep reusing planes being shot and caught over and over in salt spray--with all the parts headaches that causes.

It appears that 3I life support and food is also more compact somehow, which is a big plus. 3I crews get a room, which must help with lack of liberty issues.

 

[aramis]

Exactly. The base is probably the only place that knows where the fleet is, to forward communications. This may actually make base communications more important, though.

No, fritz. at best, they know where they were a week or two ago. If reaction options include breaking from schedule, then they know onky where they might have reached... and given misjump possibilities...they mightn't even be there.

 

[Carlobrand]

What about supporting just one Tigress, just one not a whole Batron, at every single base? You are saying that every single base, regardless of location, size of base and size of supporting population, can fully rearm and repair a Tigress? So every single one has a shipyard capable of refitting a Tigress? Really? Every one can fully deal with a 500 kiloton warship? Really? Wow.

I hear criticism. I don't hear a "why not". In fact, I don't hear anything constructive at all - just a bad effort at sarcasm.:nonono:

Is there some canon rule that says a ship must be inside some structure to be repaired, where the difference between dreadnought sizes makes a major difference? Or is it more like men in workpods swarming like gnats around a ship floating in space, with specialized construction/repair structures attached and detached where and as needed? Which manner you view it in pretty much decides whether or not that base can serve a Tigress. As near as I can tell, either view is valid for a sci-fi game, but if there is some canon basis for favoring one view over the other, I would be happy to hear it.

And, it would likely be a bit more constructive than just making sarcastic noise.

 

[aramis]

I hear criticism. I don't hear a "why not". In fact, I don't hear anything constructive at all - just a bad effort at sarcasm.:nonono:

Is there some canon rule that says a ship must be inside some structure to be repaired, where the difference between dreadnought sizes makes a major difference? Or is it more like men in workpods swarming like gnats around a ship floating in space, with specialized construction/repair structures attached and detached where and as needed? Which manner you view it in pretty much decides whether or not that base can serve a Tigress. As near as I can tell, either view is valid for a sci-fi game, but if there is some canon basis for favoring one view over the other, I would be happy to hear it.

And, it would likely be a bit more constructive than just making sarcastic noise.

It's actually a rather good and valid rhetorical form - point out the absurdity of even the least case.

If the least case is absurd (ie, every naval base being able to fully refit a Tigress), then the worst case (every base being able to resupply and refit a full numbered fleet) is even more absurd.

Not all argument need be made in the assertive mode.

That I happen to agree with the point made makes it all the easier for me to see.

Thing is, I doubt the naval base frequency and generation rules had a big ship OTU in mind - the bases are where they are because they were randomly placed for the most part, and certain manipulations occurred after the fact.

Later canon adds Depots - depots are major yards. Need a capital ship reworked from frame up? Go to the nearest Depot. Need to repair the drives, hit the base, and possibly wait for a new drive module and install team.

 

[mike wightman]

Now there is an interesting dissuasion I don't remember having... did the folks at GDW design FFW with a small ship OTU or a large ship OTU in mind?

New thread time...

 

[aramis]

Now there is an interesting dissuasion I don't remember having... did the folks at GDW design FFW with a small ship OTU or a large ship OTU in mind?

New thread time...

The base occurrence rules are in CT Bk2... 1977 edition. 5FW is much later - 1981. I suspect 5FW to have envisioned big ships; it's at least a year post-HG1, and at least several months post-HG2.

5FW is almost assuredly NOT ProtoTraveller. Besides - a Battle Squadron carries 20 troop factors minimum; that's 20 battalions - a division - in ground troops. In a Small Ship universe, even using HG2 designs for a small ship universe, that's really pushing things.

TL15 design SSU HG Troopship
5000 Hull
0100 Bridge
0100 1G
0250 J4 (fleet speed)
0200 PP4
0050 Max Turrets
0200 PP Fuel
2000 1J4 Fuel
0004 Model 4
0056 Crew SR x 28. (CO/XO are SO, all others DO)
2040 payload - = 510 SR = 1020 men maximum

6 engineers
5 command crew
6 gunners (incl. Gunnery Officer)
10 Maintenance Crew
total 27.

Now, building the minimum sized unit Bk4 allows...
FT: 4 men.
Sq: 2-3 FT. Go with 2. That's 8 men.
Plt: 3 sq+Lt. That's 25 men. (The alternative, 3 sections of 2 squads, is larger).
Co: if we assume "Several" to be more than 2, we get a minimum 75 + Cadre... CO & 1Sgt. 77 man minimum.
Bn: same interp of "severa" gets us to 212 men minimum.

Calling 212 men a Battalion is a nasty bit of a joke for them... but we can put 4.9 of these on a 5000Td troop ship (itself a nasty bit of a joke, having no armor and Agility 1).

Can we say "turkey shoot"???

If we really want these guys to survive to go dirtside, we lose another 1750 tons of cargo (AV 15=16%, 6G=+15%, PP6 = +2% PP and +2% fuel; 35% of 5000=1750), but that means only 72.5 SR for troops, and that means 145 men. 2 minimal companies, or 1 reasonable company with officers and SNCO's in singles, and maybe a little bit of space for an armory. Need nominally 3-6 of them to be a single troop factor... but note that the S9 DN's lack troops anyway...

Note that, realistically, 1000 men is about 1-2 battalions.

More nominally, 10man squads, 4 to a platoon, 4 Plt to a company, and 3 companies to the Bn, gives 510 men + attached HQ staff, for about 525-550.

If we go heavy, 12 man squads, 4 to a platoon, 5 plt to the company, 7 companies to the Bn... we can get up to about 1800 men to the Bn.

normal real world ranges run "300-1200" (according to the wikipedia entry), and the US nominal 1000-man Regiment was 2 Bn.