What is Traveller?

[rust]

Yes, the books assume no FTL communication. Do the rules? Is there some rule that would have to be explicitely changed if FTL communication was available?

Yep, at least in Classic Traveller: The "fog of war" part of the campaign rules
in Trillion Credit Squadron would be incompatible with the existence of FTL
communication.
As for Mongoose Traveller, I currently do not see any specific rule that would
have to be changed.

 

[Jason]

By that logic, I could prove that shotguns and radios and food weren't really encompassed by the Traveller rules. After all, each of them are only mentioned in a few places. If we dismiss all mentions as flavor text or not fundamental to the rules, what remains? And as for the necessity for humans to wear boots when walking across broken bottles, is that a fundamental aspect of the Traveller rules? I don't think it's mentioned explicitly anywhere.

I don't think shotguns or food or the wearing of boots are fundamental or distinctive to Traveller either.

 

[tbeard1999]

Yes, the books assume no FTL communication. Do the rules? Is there some rule that would have to be explicitely changed if FTL communication was available?

IMHO, absolutely.

The rationale for disparate tech levels (as defined by the tech level determination mechanics) falls apart if we assume FTL communication.

The trade system makes no sense if we assume FTL communication.

The subsidized mail routes make no sense if we assume FTL communication.

The tech level chart, which mentions telegraphy, radio, television and other forms of communication technology is defective if omits the development of an incredibly important technology like FTL communication. (Note that the tech level chart *does* mention FTL travel).

The "communications route" tables in LBB1 make no sense if we assume FTL communication.

In addition, we have to ignore the first paragraph of LBB1 and assume that it is incorrect if we assume FTL communication.

Sorry, but the evidence seems conclusive to me that a lack of FTL communications was an integral part of Classic Traveller's assumptions.

But if you have *any* mention of FTL communications in Classic Traveller, or *any* implication thereof, please produce it. I am aware of none. Nil. Zilch. Nada. Bupkus.

 

[Jason]

The text is the rules.

I disagree.
If I write a fantasy RPG, and in the text I state that magic is a fundamental part of my game, and describe fifteen different schools of magic, but then I don't include any actual rules allowing characters or NPCs to obtain or use magic or allow the results of magic use to have any in-game effect, is magic in fact a fundamental part of my game, despite what I say in the text?

 

[Jason]

I think you're stretching awfully far on this. You're (a) ignoring a clear LBB1 statement that there is no FTL communication*; and (b) ignoring the fact that there is no positive mention of FTL communications technology or gear (even in a listing of communication technologies) in order to press the assertion that a lack of FTL communication is not part of Classic Traveller. You are also ignoring scores of statements to that effect made by Marc Miller over the years.

I am unpersuaded.

*Nor am I impressed much by your claim that this statement is somehow "only flavor text". Given the fact that Classic Traveller packed a HUGE amount of material into only about 72 letter sized pages, it would have been wasteful for GDW to repeat the purported "flavor text" as a rule.

I'm not ignoring anything. Yes Traveller is written with the assumption that FTL communication is unavailable and has from the LBBs. Is that assumption actually reflected in the rules, though?

 

[aramis]

(extending Ty's List)
no mention in MT rules of any FTL comm. It has the same tech tables as CT... and paradigms.

It should be noted that the lack of FTJ comm is core to even GT... GT suggest that if one adds FTL comms, they be slower.

Only in TNE is any real mention made of FTL comms, and then only in FF&S, which, while the TNEOTU is build from it, isn't itself restricted to OTU tech, and points out that FTLC isn't OTU.

 

[travlar]

I'm not ignoring anything. Yes Traveller is written with the assumption that FTL communication is unavailable and has from the LBBs. Is that assumption actually reflected in the rules, though?

Of course it is; the assumption is as old as the rules, and therefore almost certainly had some effect on them. Consider the trading rules. If there is FTJ commo, then why does it take trader skill to predict one die for the resell value? If there are FTJ communication devices, then there would probably be FTL sensors which would greatly increase chances of hitting targets.

 

[tbeard1999]

I'm not ignoring anything. Yes Traveller is written with the assumption that FTL communication is unavailable and has from the LBBs. Is that assumption actually reflected in the rules, though?

Yes. As noted previously, numerous rules make little sense if you assume FTL communications.

But out of curiousity, what kind of rule is missing from Traveller? What rule would satisfy you that a lack of FTL communication is reflected in the rules?

After all, there is no mention of sorcery or demons in the Traveller rules. Does that somehow lead you to think that Traveller doesn't assume the lack of sorcery and demons?

At the end of the day, FTL communication ain't there. And the rules that would be most impacted by FTL communication -- trade, technology dispersion, etc. -- behave consistently with a lack of FTL communication. <shrug> I don't know what else you want.

 

[rancke]

I don't think shotguns or food or the wearing of boots are fundamental or distinctive to Traveller either.

Is there anything about the rules that you think is fundamental and distinctive to Traveller? If so, please tell us what.


Hans

 

[atpollard]

The rationale for disparate tech levels (as defined by the tech level determination mechanics) falls apart if we assume FTL communication.

Why is this true?
Mail Contracts, X-boats and data crystals each and all contain the innate ability to carry (for all practical purposes) an unlimited capacity of Information. Why does a 2 week lag between jumps 'support' two adjacent worlds being 4 TLs apart while a 24 hour (or instantaneous) lag in Imformation transfer invalidates the supporting rationale?

The trade system makes no sense if we assume FTL communication.

There are those who would argue that the trade system already makes no sense, with or without FTL Communications.

 

[rancke]

Why is this true?
Mail Contracts, X-boats and data crystals each and all contain the innate ability to carry (for all practical purposes) an unlimited capacity of Information. Why does a 2 week lag between jumps 'support' two adjacent worlds being 4 TLs apart while a 24 hour (or instantaneous) lag in Imformation transfer invalidates the supporting rationale?

I have to agree with this particular point. Incidentally, there are plenty of classic SF where societies of highly disparate tech level coexists in universes with FLT communication (other than by ship -- maybe we should come up with a new acronym? FTS, Faster Than Shipping?) Jack Vance (Though come to think of it, I'm not sure there is FTS communication in the Vanciverse), Jo Clayton... OK, maybe disparate tech levels and FTS communication isn't so common together, but I don't think they're ever portrayed as causally linked. David Drake's Cinnabar universe has NFTS (No Faster Than Shipping) communication and disparate TLs, but that's because it's modelled over 18th Century warfare; I don't think Drake claims one is the cause of the other. Neither does Piper.


Hans

 

[tbeard1999]

But I don't agree with the player manual thing. The setup with one book being able to play everything is real nice. It helps with selling the game in my group. We don't need a stinking referee manual; We already know how to run a game.

I agree completely. I've never much cared for the division of game books into multiple volumes (unless the game is HUGE). For one thing, most players I ever met by both the player and referee guides anyway (I certainly do). Also, a lot of material doesn't neatly divide into "player" or "referee" information, so there's the hassle of finding the right volume for the information. Finally, I have plenty of books to keep track of. More is not appreciated.

 

[tbeard1999]

Why is this true?
Mail Contracts, X-boats and data crystals each and all contain the innate ability to carry (for all practical purposes) an unlimited capacity of Information.

I don't agree with this, *especially* if we're talking about 1977 (when Traveller was released). I note that the Azhanti High Lightning class cruisers had a chart room where physical maps and charts were stored. So much like most sci-fi writers, Marc Miller missed the impact of computers on information storage density.

If information must be shipped in a physical, printed format, and if travel is expensive and time consuming, then it seems self-evident to me that it will far harder to distribute technological expertise compared with societies that can transmit via FTL radio (or that can store thousands of books on a single DVD).

Of course, the tech disparity in Traveller is still probably too exaggerated. But then again, maybe not. After all, late 19th century Earth had mass printing, telegraphy and the ability to go around the world in 80 days (or less as time wore on). Yet the same planet had London and Darkest Africa.

100 years later, we have instantaneous worldwide communications. Now, even the most economically primitive areas have cellphones and understand modern medicine (although they may lack the tools to make the cellphones or the medicine to take full advantage of medical knowledge).

In any event, large technological disparities is dramatically desirable (as is a lack of FTL communication) IMHO, so I think it a Good Thing.

There are those who would argue that the trade system already makes no sense, with or without FTL Communications.

I'd argue that it is defective, but not that it makes no sense. It clearly assumes that there is nothing resembling up to date price information in neighboring systems. This is consistent with a lack of FTL communications. My complaint with it is that it makes it way too easy for players to get rich -- merely by making a few lucky die rolls -- and competes with roleplaying adventures.

 

[atpollard]

I don't agree with this, *especially* if we're talking about 1977 (when Traveller was released). I note that the Azhanti High Lightning class cruisers had a chart room where physical maps and charts were stored. So much like most sci-fi writers, Marc Miller missed the impact of computers on information storage density.

If information must be shipped in a physical, printed format, and if travel is expensive and time consuming, then it seems self-evident to me that it will far harder to distribute technological expertise compared with societies that can transmit via FTL radio (or that can store thousands of books on a single DVD).

Yes, I can see that physical books would make Technology Transfer harder.
Did the 1977 LBBs have the TL 13 Holo-recorder and Data Crystals (I started with The Traveller Book)?

 

[rust]

Watching this thread while working on my current setting, I tried to find my
personal answer to the thread's question "What is Traveller ?":

What is Traveller for me, what makes it unique for me ?

I wrote a list of Traveller elements and compared them to elements of other
roleplaying games I liked, and eliminated all that those other games have, too.
In the end only a single entry on the list remained: Characters.

Traveller's semi-random character generation with terms of service and an in-
teresting choice of careers and the fact that the characters' development ta-
kes place inside the setting instead of the game mechanics is what I see as
the - for me - really important part of Traveller.
Traveller characters support setting involvement and roleplaying because the
system concentrates on in-setting rewards for the activities of the charac-
ters, not on mechanical rewards like experience points or thelike.
Since I doubtless have a strong simulationist streak, this makes Traveller feel
quite "realistic" to me.

All the other elements of Traveller are important, too, as long as they do not
force a specific setting upon me, but they are not really unique enough to de-
fine Traveller for me.

So, my Traveller is about characters.

 

[Whipsnade]

I disagree.

Jason,

Why should I be surprised?

If I write a fantasy RPG, and in the text I state that magic is a fundamental part of my game, and describe fifteen different schools of magic, but then I don't include any actual rules allowing characters or NPCs to obtain or use magic or allow the results of magic use to have any in-game effect, is magic in fact a fundamental part of my game, despite what I say in the text?

All that example proves is that you're a very poor RPG writer, nothing more.

It's a faulty analogy too. The game describes magic and then fails to deliver rules for its use while Traveller describes FTL comms limited to the speed of transportation and then delivers rules for FTL comms limited to the speed of transportation.

The rules in any RPG are an extension of the themes and assumptions making up the game's design. Because rules cannot cover every possible contingency, text is used to convey the game's themes and assumptions to the players so that they will be able to carry on in the absence of specific rules.

Imagine I too have written a fantasy RPG and have stated in the text that my fifteen different schools of magic all depend on mana and that mana is only created upon the death of living things. When someone creates a setting which uses my magic rules and another source of mana, they'll be playing with my rules but they'll not be playing my game.

That's why my Pulp - Chaco War setting used Traveller's rules and also wasn't Traveller.


Regards,
Bill

 

[tbeard1999]

Yes, I can see that physical books would make Technology Transfer harder.
Did the 1977 LBBs have the TL 13 Holo-recorder and Data Crystals (I started with The Traveller Book)?

No it didn't. That was added by the Traveller Book and Starter Traveller. There was a reference to a Library program that contained "encyclopedic information" and cost cr300,000 (and used up half the computing capacity and 1/4 the total storage capacity of a basic starship computer).

It's easy to forget what a HUGE difference those 4 years (1977-1980) meant in overall awareness of the potential of computers.

In 1977, the term "Word Processor" meant a dedicated hardware system that most folks had never seen. Home computers like the Apple II (which cost the equivalent of $4600US) and the TRS-80 (which cost the equivalent of $2100US) came out in late 1977 and, to be blunt, didn't really do *anything* worthwhile.

By 1980, most high school students had at least seen a computer and a significant percentage had taken a class with them. WordStar, a feature rich word processing program ran on CP/M machines and many (most) game companies had computers with word processors (and often typesetting systems).

So by 1980, most game companies were aware that you could store a tremendous amount of text on floppy diskettes (over 400 typeset pages -- 2 full books -- on a single 360K 5.25" floppy disk) or hard disks (6000 typeset pages -- 30 full books on a 5 MB drive). There was already talk of diskettes with 1.2mb storage and much larger hard drives -- 10+ mb!! I am pretty sure that I remember reading about "optical diskettes" that could hold hundreds of megabytes at that time.

And suddenly, sci-fi was full of references to computerized information storage. The Traveller Book simply followed that trend.

 

[Rhialto the Marvelous]

I'm not ignoring anything. Yes Traveller is written with the assumption that FTL communication is unavailable and has from the LBBs. Is that assumption actually reflected in the rules, though?

Advanced Dungeons and Dragons was written with the assumption, and a merely tacit one in this case mind you, that Big Blue Sentient Cheeses whose asses are lit on fire are unavailable as character classes.

Is that assumption actually reflected in the rules, though?

 

[tbeard1999]

FYI -- the 1977 printing of LBB1 has a different statement in the first paragraph, but it still clearly states that there's no FTL communication:

Nonetheless, coomunication will be...reduced to the speed of transportation.

 

[tbeard1999]

That's why my Pulp - Chaco War setting used Traveller's rules and also wasn't Traveller.

Wow...a Pulp Chaco War setting. My roleplaying experience is completed just knowing that this was available.