beowulf2044
SOC-12
Not to mention Chaosium's Ringworld. I recently bought a copy of Chaosium's Basic Roleplaying. It's 399 full-sized pages. Does anyone know, for a certainty, how many mistakes or bit of errata are contained within?
What is Traveller?
- Thread starter Colin
- Start date
No, but you can find the already discovered ones here:
http://basicroleplaying.com/wiki/doku.php?id=appendices:errata_and_clarifications
I've got the Ringworld boxed set and the Ringworld Companion book - fun background material for a Ringworld fan, but I've never actually had anyone want to play it.
captainjack
SOC-13
Local autonomy of players and local administrators are a big setting issue; getting out of Dodge faster than the stagecoach with the wanted posters is another. I'd argue that the first strongly influences the political setup of the 3I: Feudalism. Centralized rule and direction is much easier with no com lags.
I'd also comment that not all trade is based on speculation ; yes the markets are volitile, but that measn that futures contracts, and suchlike could be easily worked out to stabilize prices and risk. Plus, faster info would probably stabilize most of the market, rather than the opposite. Plus, a trader would be able to pick markets with no risk or delay with FTL type coms. Thise are setting issues.
As far as just rules (not setting) issues ,the trade rules are most vulnerable, if for no other reason than call ahead and call in transit are possible. I could make the point that the TL system in world development is also a possible issue, although there are those that would argue that it is broken regardless(
). Specifically, one would expect a more uniform distribution is raw information could be sent easily. Space combat would need some kind of changes -real time guided missles at vast ranges would be feasable with FTL coms, and possibly sensing would be much easier with no delays. At the least, ships or remote sensors could form networks across vast distances for target information and such.
Hmmmmm. Does allowing an interstellar internet to exist count as a setting or a rules change ? Even at the system level FTL coms have a significant impact.
And aside from the one boxed set, each setting was a different ruleset. There are elements in RQ that are not in COC nor Stormbringer, and vice versa. The three games in one box edition of BRP didn't sell well.
Hero System, also, used the same rules for many different games, each with tweaks.
Your assertion is a MacGuffin, sir. Interesting, but essentially, superfluous to the action at hand.
What difference it makes is that, in Bk2, you SPECULATE. the amount of speculative trade would be drastically reduced if there is a form of FTJ commo.
Jason,
Not integral to the rules? Really?
Those technology charts list such Traveller themes as fusion power, jump drives, maneuver drives, grav vehicles, antimatter, disintegrators, battledress, AI, and communication tech up through lasers and TV, but the fact that don't include FTL comms is a minor point?
We'll have to agree to disagree then.
I do think all you're really doing is just looking for an excuse to add FTL comms and still call the result Traveller however.
Regards,
Bill
I do not think so, because Mongoose Traveller now has exactly the same si-
tuation, with one set of core rules, but different details for different settings,
like FTL communication present in Babylon 5 and absent in the Third Imperium
- and I thought that was the topic.
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
From LBB1:
Traveller deals with a common theme of science-fiction: the concept that an expanding technology will enable us to reach the stars and to populate the worlds which orbit them. The major problem, however, will be that communication, be it political, diplomatic, commercial, or private, will be reduced to the level of the 18th century, reduced to the speed of transportation.
This is also strongly implied by the first page of LBB4.
In addition, the tech level chart in LBB3 has a "communications" section and there are no FTL communications breakthroughs mentioned.
If FTL communications existed, there would be little reason for the profitable mail contracts. In addition, there would be no reason to roll randomly for prices in the trade system (you could verify market prices before transporting the products). A different mechanic would be called for -- roll for current price, buy commodity, then roll for changes in market price each day until you sell the commodity.
I think that FTL communications would also seriously impact the insularity of tech levels between worlds.
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excuse me...but isn't that a comment on someone's motivation, and therefore an insult according to recent discussions?
[aside to Bill: I don't actually think it is but by the comments made in the moderation thread...]
Allen
could they? can anyone? it's easy to come up with (yet another) free-floating ruleset regarding melee combat, but it's hard to talk about tech levels, admirals, navys, spaceships, and scouts, and without being driven into detailing the setting assumed in such things. one may as well speak of star wars without an empire, or of star trek without a federation - the resulting movie/game would be almost unrecognizable. I'd say that the rules and setting were locked together the instant "social standing" was made a generic character trait applicable across many worlds. "baron? baron of what?"
Allen,
I'm not disparaging his motivation though. Pointing out that he has such a motivation isn't the same as insulting that motivation? Is it?
(Aside to Allen: That's a serious question.)
I see Jason's desire to "read" First Three LBB Traveller in a manner that "allows" FTL comms as akin to Mike Wrightman's desire for weapon bays on sub-1000dTon vessels or Matt123's desire for mixed turrets above 1000dTons. They all want a certain thing and they all are reading the text in ways that support their desires. There's nothing "evil" in that desire, there's no "ill intent" at work.
Mike and Matt pinned their desires on vaguely written rules while ignoring actual examples. Jason is pinning his desire on the supposed lack of an explicit statement regarding FTL comms in the rules while also ignoring actual examples. (Although Ty's latest post shuts that particular door.)
They're all looking for ways to say that their personal TUs are closer to the OTU than first meets the eye and there's nothing wrong with wanting to do that.
Regards,
Bill
I would call that flavor text, not rules per se.
Fine, but a lot of breakthroughs, including those added in later Traveller books are missing from the LBB TL tables. Also the TL tables only really affect the rules in a few areas - availability of gear on certain planets, for instance. Just because something doesn't appear on the TL tables wouldn't mean that it never appears in play.
Mail contracts do seem to be the most obvious instance of the lack of FTL communications being actually written into the rules. In a game with FTL communicaion, maybe mail contracts could represent a government courier service, carrying small priority cargos? It does seem unrealistic to need 5 tons of space for electronically-stored communications.
Not necessarily. It's not clear from the rules that the reason you roll randomly for prices is because you couldn't call ahead. Maybe the markets really are so volatile that they change from day to day.
Considering that in CT the habitability of a planet doesn't effect how many people decide to live there, and how many people are living there doesn't effect how big a spaceport they decide to build, this seems a minor point.
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Uh, what are you talking about? I thought I was just questioning whether FTL comms is a fundamental aspect of the Traveller rules - not trying to "read the books" so that they could be included in canon or something. I'm well aware that the OTU has no FTL comms and the text of the LBBs include statements that they don't exist. But the rules themselves don't seem to reflect that very much. The non-existence of FTL comms is therefore IMO something fundamental to the OTU setting but not to the Traveller rules themselves.
Add FTL comms to the OTU and you have to make drastic changes to the setting, but I don't see any fundamental changes you would have to make to the rules.
To quote a sidebar on page 44 of the GURPS Traveller core book:
"GMs may even introduce FTL radio, should they wish, provided that it is
also slower than the speed of physical travel (although this may have un-
foreseen repercussions)."
So at least GURPS Traveller has it as an option for the Third Imperium.
"GMs may even introduce FTL radio, should they wish, provided that it is
also slower than the speed of physical travel (although this may have un-
foreseen repercussions)."
So at least GURPS Traveller has it as an option for the Third Imperium.
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
<shrug>
I think that the evidence pretty conclusively supports the claim that Traveller has assumed no FTL communication.
There is:
1. An explicit statement to that effect in LBB1.
2. References to it in LBB4 and LBB5.
3. A complete absence of FTL communications gear in *any* Classic Traveller rules.
4. No mention of FTL communications capability in *any* Classic Traveller rules.
Seems to me that the most *reasonable* interpretation is exactly what Marc Miller has said for 3+ decades -- Traveller assumes no FTL communication.
How is any other conclusion more reasonable?
Yes, the books assume no FTL communication. Do the rules? Is there some rule that would have to be explicitely changed if FTL communication was available?
By that logic, I could prove that shotguns and radios and food weren't really encompassed by the Traveller rules. After all, each of them are only mentioned in a few places. If we dismiss all mentions as flavor text or not fundamental to the rules, what remains? And as for the necessity for humans to wear boots when walking across broken bottles, is that a fundamental aspect of the Traveller rules? I don't think it's mentioned explicitly anywhere.
Hans
Jason,
The text is the rules. There's nothing indicating that This is merely flavor text and This is an actual rule. The text is the rules. Nothing more.
You believe that "No FTL Comms" is more of an OTU setting thing? Then why is this sentence...
The major problem, however, will be that communication, be it political, diplomatic, commercial, or private, will be reduced to the level of the 18th century, reduced to the speed of transportation.
... found in LBB:1 which was written before there even was an OTU setting? You can't even find the word "imperium" in the first three LBBs. The only setting "details" to be found are the general "themes" we've been discussing in this thread.
Regards,
Bill
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
I think you're stretching awfully far on this. You're (a) ignoring a clear LBB1 statement that there is no FTL communication*; and (b) ignoring the fact that there is no positive mention of FTL communications technology or gear (even in a listing of communication technologies) in order to press the assertion that a lack of FTL communication is not part of Classic Traveller. You are also ignoring scores of statements to that effect made by Marc Miller over the years.
I am unpersuaded.
*Nor am I impressed much by your claim that this statement is somehow "only flavor text". Given the fact that Classic Traveller packed a HUGE amount of material into only about 72 letter sized pages, it would have been wasteful for GDW to repeat the purported "flavor text" as a rule.
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