What makes the Imperium a Feudal Technocracy?

[Carlobrand]

I have sort of followed this conversation, but I still view the 3rd Imperium as an impersonal bureaucracy punctuated by exceptions to that rule. Exit Visa being a case in point.

I could buy it as a feudal technocracy if I could see some examples in canon. I see lots of examples of the feudal part, but I can't think of much in canon that speaks to the Imperium either treating civil administration as a science or controlling the fruits of technology. It does tend to look like an impersonal bureaucracy with nobles sitting in the power seats.

I wonder what Marc's seeing that makes it a feudal technocracy in his eyes. Maybe there's just some piece that hasn't been communicated yet.

 

[rancke]

I could buy it as a feudal technocracy if I could see some examples in canon. I see lots of examples of the feudal part, but I can't think of much in canon that speaks to the Imperium either treating civil administration as a science or controlling the fruits of technology. It does tend to look like an impersonal bureaucracy with nobles sitting in the power seats.

I'm not sure how impersonal it is, but I do know that I've always perceived the Imperium of being a much closert analogy to an Age of sail European empire than to a Medieval feudal kingdom. The nobles are not put in charge of fiefs, they don't subinfeudate, they report to and take orders from their "overlords", but as representatives of the Emperor not as overlords. The so-called fiefs they get are actually landholds. Plus various other bits and pieces that we've discussed lots and lots of times.

That is, most of the nobles. Influenced by the Age of Sail empire analogy I've always seen the dukes as analogous to royal governors. Hereditary royal governors, granted, but still fulfilling the function of governors. But recent arguments that I've read in this thread has made me realize that the Imperium can, indeed, be seen as a feudal structure. A structure with one (or two, depending on how you count) tier(s): The emperor and the dukes (The archdukes used to be a tier, but they've been depowered -- there are still some vestiges, but for practical purposes they don't really count).

So, I admit that I was wrong. Or rather, while I still see the Imperium as an autocracy with pseudo-feudal trappings, I can see where the notion that the Imperium is feudal comes from.

(I still don't get the technocracy part, though).


Hans

 

[Enoki]

Weighing in kind of late in the conversation, but...

I'd say that it is more of a feudal bureaucracy than technocracy.

It appears to me to be an empire where nobility are the power behind things. Look for example at the mega corporations. Who owns those according to canon?
It is obvious that there is a stratification by social and economic class within the empire as well. All of that argues for it being feudal.

But, it isn't run on the basis of the most skilled being the ones doing things. Instead you have a professional bureaucracy that is the real day to day operation of the government. You clearly have a professional military where social standing has considerable weight in getting you into various branches and then getting you advanced. You can see that in the character development tables.

That's the way I see it and would play it. You go to some planet with a high law and a large population and you are a nobody you get hassled by the bureaucrats to no end. You are a noble and you get a pass on many things that would get commoners arrested. The bureaucracy would subtly pass on to the local nobility that you are a problem child and the nobility itself would have internal means of dealing with the problem out of the public eye, that sort of thing.

The wealthy and powerful non-nobility is given quasi-noble status that lets them have some of the privileges of nobles without being part of the actual nobility.
I also see it being pretty hard to alter your social status in significant ways within the game. Sure, you can go up a level or two (or down) but someone who starts out at SS 5 isn't going to become a SS A or B ever. So, that argues that the class structure is pretty well fixed with only limited social mobility. That is very feudal.

That's my view. It can make for great fun if you have a noble in the party and he is a total @$$ in the game. He keeps getting a pass by police, bureaucrats, etc., while the rest of the party gets raked over the coals by them for the noble's actions.
Nobles make for great quasi-legal intrigues too in that sort of world. It has a Three Musketeers flavor to it.

 

[atpollard]

(I still don't get the technocracy part, though).
Hans

I can see your point.
Would you agree that the story of the founding of the Third Imperium by leveraging control of "fusion+" does sound closer to a Technocracy?

Since Marc seems so adamant that it is a Feudal Technocracy, I wonder if the shortcoming might be in the failure to present the 'Technology' part of the government in later works. In this case, then Marc may be correct that the 3I is a Feudal Technocracy, and you are also correct that Traveller has done a terrible job of depicting the Technocratic aspect of the Interstellar government.

If the only view of the United States that you experience is visiting international airport terminals during a brief layover, you will have a hard time grasping how American politics really works.

 

[whulorigan]

Would you agree that the story of the founding of the Third Imperium by leveraging control of "fusion+" does sound closer to a Technocracy?

Since Marc seems so adamant that it is a Feudal Technocracy, I wonder if the shortcoming might be in the failure to present the 'Technology' part of the government in later works. In this case, then Marc may be correct that the 3I is a Feudal Technocracy, and you are also correct that Traveller has done a terrible job of depicting the Technocratic aspect of the Interstellar government.

Or is it possible that the Third Imperium began as a Feudal Technocracy (with Fusion+, et al), but as is often the case as cultures and nations evolve over time, the term is no longer technically accurate 1000 years later, but the fiction of being a Feudal Technocracy is still the official party-line.

 

[rancke]

Would you agree that the story of the founding of the Third Imperium by leveraging control of "fusion+" does sound closer to a Technocracy?

Closer, perhaps. Close, no. I don't see how selling a product, not even a product based on a new technology, and using the wealth to achieve power has much to do with providing services, technological or not.

Since Marc seems so adamant that it is a Feudal Technocracy, I wonder if the shortcoming might be in the failure to present the 'Technology' part of the government in later works. In this case, then Marc may be correct that the 3I is a Feudal Technocracy, and you are also correct that Traveller has done a terrible job of depicting the Technocratic aspect of the Interstellar government.

I just had a different thought: What if Marc sees all feudal structures as feudal technocracies? I've been feeling that the Imperium isn't a feudal technocracy because even if it may be feudal to some degree or other, it's not a technocracy. But today I came to wonder what government type a bog-standard Medieval-style feudal realm with all the trimmings would have. I don't see any of the other government types to fit either, not even the dictatorships (An overlord's oaths constrain him (at least in theory) to a certain conduct towards his vassals just as much as a constitution constrains a monarch (just in different ways)). Type 5 may not fit, but it fits better than any of the others. Or am I wrong?


Hans

 

[Ulsyus]

I just had a different thought: What if Marc sees all feudal structures as feudal technocracies?

Hans

Could someone just ask him? Don? One of the other Initiates?

 

[mike wightman]

As an oddity the Vilani Imperium is closer to a feudal technocracy than the 3rd.

The Vilani actually controlled what technology was allowed for civilian use, and maintained a technological advantage for its military.

I think I made the fusion + point a couple of pages back , but it is unconvincing because, IMHO, there are not enough advantages offered by fusion+ to make it a required technology, there are other power generation solutions.

 

[Ulsyus]

There was no definition in MT, nor in the B³. Both TNE and T4 had the same definition on p188 & 134 respectively:

Feudal Technocracy: Government by specific individuals for those who agree to be ruled. Relationships are based on the performance of technical activities which are mutually beneficial.

So the worlds have agreed to be part of the 3I, albeit for some after a pacification campaign or in Milieu 0 after some gunboat diplomacy or other more nefarious means.

What are the "technical activities" that the definition refers to?

 

[rancke]

I have sort of followed this conversation, but I still view the 3rd Imperium as an impersonal bureaucracy punctuated by exceptions to that rule. Exit Visa being a case in point.

The bureaucracy that the PCs are up against in Exit Visa is primarily the planetary one. Which makes it so exceedingly unbelievable that it has any say in whether a starship gets permission to leave the Imperial starport or not. The meta-reason for this is presumably that in the original adventure, Stranded on Arden, the Arden government controlled the starport, something whoever transposed the adventure to Alell overlooked, but I can't figure out an in-game explanation that works.


Hans

 

[Ulsyus]

Is development and maintenance of starports solely or primarily a 3I responsibility? What input does or can a world have?

 

[Carlobrand]

Is development and maintenance of starports solely or primarily a 3I responsibility? What input does or can a world have?

Starport's extrality, Imperial territory, as distinct and separate from the local government as an embassy. I'd interpret that as the world has no jurisdiction, and any development and maintenance is at the behest of and under the supervision of Imperial personnel.

There'd be the usual extradition arrangements, stuff like that, maybe some local companies handling Imperial duties under Imperial contract - folk that might have divided loyalties or subtle conflicts of interest that could be leveraged - and there's likely to be the typical informal links, influences and strange bedfellows that happen in those situations. Bureaucracies are infamous for doing the expedient thing, as defined by that particular bureaucrat's self-interest, and then either covering it up or coming up with a fanciful interpretation for why it's actually within the regs.

 

[Ulsyus]

So starports are 3I territory?

 

[rancke]

Is development and maintenance of starports solely or primarily a 3I responsibility? What input does or can a world have?

The world's primary starport becomes Imperial territory when it joins the Imperium. That means it has been built by locals and is owned by someone local, government or private. The locals may be compensated in some way or the Imperium may elect to let them keep ownership in some form. The Imperium can also elect to let private interests develop the starport. So the details can vary tremendously. The only thing that's invariable is that the starport is under Imperial jurisdiction.


Hans

 

[Timerover51]

Starport's extrality, Imperial territory, as distinct and separate from the local government as an embassy. I'd interpret that as the world has no jurisdiction, and any development and maintenance is at the behest of and under the supervision of Imperial personnel.

There'd be the usual extradition arrangements, stuff like that, maybe some local companies handling Imperial duties under Imperial contract - folk that might have divided loyalties or subtle conflicts of interest that could be leveraged - and there's likely to be the typical informal links, influences and strange bedfellows that happen in those situations. Bureaucracies are infamous for doing the expedient thing, as defined by that particular bureaucrat's self-interest, and then either covering it up or coming up with a fanciful interpretation for why it's actually within the regs.

Are D and E class starports Imperial territory as well? Isn't that stretching it a bit much for an E-class starport which is described as follows.

Frontier Installation. Essentially a marked spot of bedrock with no fuel, facilities, or bases present.

I am not sure if I were running a planet that I would want my only contact with the galaxy controlled by an outside power. Can local planets establish and run their own starports? And if not, where does it specifically say that in the rules?

Lastly, how is that going to be enforced in an asteroid belt, or a system with a large number of local spaceports for intra-system traffic?

 

[Chris Barlow]

Feudal Technocracy - a cyberpun definition

There was no definition in MT, nor in the B³. Both TNE and T4 had the same definition on p188 & 134 respectively:



So the worlds have agreed to be part of the 3I, albeit for some after a pacification campaign or in Milieu 0 after some gunboat diplomacy or other more nefarious means.

What are the "technical activities" that the definition refers to?

My own definition of Feudal Technocracy owes more to cyberpunk novels than most of the definitions given above. Some of the Mega corps provide various goods and services that are technocratic in nature, such as space ships, computers, robots, advanced weapon systems etc by recruiting scientists, engineers, sales people, and managers. In return these employees first loyalty is to the mega corps not their home planet, home subsector or the Third Imperium, hence the feudal aspect.

Also like the feudal barons of old and early mega corps such as the British and Dutch East India companies, the Third Imperium's largest companies have their own police forces, spies and spy catchers, armies - either disguised as security guards or using mercenaries, and navies - or armed frontier merchant ships as they will call them. The mega corps use these forces and their great wealth to "persuade" most people even the governments of small population planets to do as they want. They fear only other large mega corps, and on the rare occasions it intervenes in their affairs the Third Imperium.

The mega corps have to put up with the Third Imperium because (a) It supplies an impartial legal system and armed forces that stop conflicts between the mega corps getting too dangerous, and protect everyone from major external threats such as the Zhondani, Aslan and other alien major races. (b) When it needs to act the Third Imperium is much richer, has larger armed forces and more manpower generally than any one . Hence the definition of a Feudal Technocracy. big business supplies the technocracy, their low to middle ranking employees and most of the rest of the population are the feudal serfs.

 

[rancke]

Are D and E class starports Imperial territory as well? Isn't that stretching it a bit much for an E-class starport which is described as follows.

Frontier Installation. Essentially a marked spot of bedrock with no fuel, facilities, or bases present.

I assume that the mark is a circle of paint showing the extrality line.

I am not sure if I were running a planet that I would want my only contact with the galaxy controlled by an outside power. Can local planets establish and run their own starports? And if not, where does it specifically say that in the rules?

They are called spaceports, but I don't see why a spaceport can't be used for starships.

Lastly, how is that going to be enforced in an asteroid belt, or a system with a large number of local spaceports for intra-system traffic?

What is it you think is suppose to be enforced? I've always seen the Imperial starport as a way to ensure that the member world can't control foreign traffic, not a way to control the member world's own traffic.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Also like the feudal barons of old and early mega corps such as the British and Dutch East India companies, the Third Imperium's largest companies have their own police forces, spies and spy catchers, armies - either disguised as security guards or using mercenaries, and navies - or armed frontier merchant ships as they will call them. The mega corps use these forces and their great wealth to "persuade" most people even the governments of small population planets to do as they want. They fear only other large mega corps, and on the rare occasions it intervenes in their affairs the Third Imperium.

Note that the European trading companies tended to be under the control of their home governments, either from their start as chartered companies or brought under control eventually.

I don't think the megacorporations are all that powerful. Their wealth is suppose to be mainly based on interstellar trade, and interstellar trade is portrayed as relatively small. Sure, a megacorporation is powerful in absolute terms, but they would be outmatched by the high-population worlds -- as a group if not individually. Megacorporations do have power enough to bully worlds and countries with smaller populations, but several bits of canon show the Imperium preventing corporations from doing just that.


Hans

 

[Timerover51]

As a follow up to my previous post, who controls the starports in the Solomani Sphere? Certainly NOT the Imperium? And in the Sword Worlds, I would assume that the individual planets would control their own starports.

 

[rancke]

As a follow up to my previous post, who controls the starports in the Solomani Sphere? Certainly NOT the Imperium? And in the Sword Worlds, I would assume that the individual planets would control their own starports.

So would I.


Hans