And happy new year from the west coast!
(a few minutes early, but I'll be away from the keyboard for a bit)
(a few minutes early, but I'll be away from the keyboard for a bit)
CT Only: What One Thing Would You Change About Classic Traveller?
- Thread starter robject
- Start date
J2 can, on pure freight ships, make a profit, if they go tramping and keep generally full, on per jump pricing. High passengers, due to the rules about stewards, make for economic losses; carrying mids only is, by the way things are written in CT/MT, not practially possible; a guy with a high passage coupon has the right to force you to debark your mid in favor of his high.
A lot of the answer depends upon how one looks at starport codes ...
If one is reading them as setting descriptive truth, whatever the reason, that there is a port without means the megacorps don't find that port important enough to do so.
If one takes them as a partial truth, such as a truth of only the public accessible facilities, the MegaCorps may have their own private ones, but don't allow others to routinely use them.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
While the point of tramping is to make the party self reliant while adventuring, if there were a psionic talent that predicts interstellar market trends, I'd recruit that mutant.
Or tap into a network that informs, even at several weeks delay, of interstellar market conditions.
Or tap into a network that informs, even at several weeks delay, of interstellar market conditions.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Trader-3 skill lets you do that (9 days out predictions) without needing psionics (LBB7, p30).
That was my first thought as well, that such a low interest rate (even if it is compounding annually) was surprisingly low.
Of course, if 1977 stagflation interest rates were used, no one would be able to afford bank financing for starships.
You see? My prior research into the external cargo tug options has relevance to other ship designs besides my own. You just need to think Outside The Hull™.
Note that such "tug" designs (jump and/or maneuver) work best when the jump drives and maneuver drive factors "match" in LBB2 designs.
LBB5 designs however have a very different relationship between jump and maneuver external capacity limits (Jump-4, 2G being one of the equal tonnage for both drives sweet spots).
I still find it somewhat remarkable that external cargo isn't a more widely recognized (and accepted as valid) option for merchant. It's basically what supercargo ships do in the real world these days. The cargo containers just sit on the deck topside and aren't enclosed within the hull.
To be fair though, supercargo container ships are an economic phenomenon that came about after 1977 ...
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
I'm pretty sure somewhere in Classic there's a mention of megatonne freighters plying the trade lanes in the Core.
You may be looking at different numbers than I am.
The cheapest "cost/payload ton" J-2 ship (excluding TL-15) seems to be TL-11, 1000Td.
With it, I get costs of Cr1185/payload ton for a Jump-2.
I'm assuming the purchase of refined fuel, though, which might be where the difference lies.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
40 tons of refined fuel costs Cr20,000.
80 tons of refined fuel is more expensive than a fuel purification plant is at TL=9.
The fuel cost savings you can get out of a fuel purification plant falls into the category of "pays for itself" within 2-3 jumps ... after which it is all gravy/savings on expenses you don't need to keep paying for. A fuel purification plant represents one of the biggest overhead cost savings items you can install into a starship.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Don't install it on the ship - build one on every world you visit on your trade routine. Band together with other free traders to build fuel purification plants on every world - the saving is huge and no chance of a misjump.
The presence of purification plants is one of the things in HG that doesn't mesh with the setting.
Fuel purification plants are something that i would remove from the rules, to be replaced with actual costs for declaring a drive to be military standard rather than civilian.
The presence of purification plants is one of the things in HG that doesn't mesh with the setting.
Fuel purification plants are something that i would remove from the rules, to be replaced with actual costs for declaring a drive to be military standard rather than civilian.
Straybow
SOC-14 1K
Each of your examples ignored the key point that "Differences in starship jump drive capacity have no specific effect on passage prices." If getting there by J1 takes n jumps and by Jn takes 1 jump, the passage price is to be the same. Otherwise there would be a "specific effect on passage price" that is disallowed. Ergo, per parsec pricing.
All your logic fails to include any actual analysis of starship operation costs, but reflects the decision to keep the game simple with a fixed price system. In reality there would be no fixed prices, for anything, but only averages. But if, for the sake of simplicity, we used fixed prices, per parsec is the way that makes economic sense for starship operation. No starship operator would set prices that wouldn't cover costs, and no bank would finance a starship that couldn't set prices to cover costs. Businesses that don't cover their costs go out of business, including the banks.
You are, of course, free to slavishly follow the per jump pricing as "the rule." But just remember Rule Zero
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Costcosmic membership might get you access to refined fuel at raw cost plus purification overhead, but it seems unlikely that the Independent Interstellar Tramp Traders Association will get their act together to jointly finance and run a chain of gas stations.
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coliver988
SOC-14 1K
And wondering if a port that has refined fuel would allow a ship to wilderness refuel or use unrefined? Leaving credits on the table, so to speak. While not enforceable everywhere I can see the possibility,
You may be right. Okay, it's a far better likelihood than may. However unless a group has really gotten into the GURPS Free Trader mode of play, simple might be good enough to help drive the plot along.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
- That's the Rules As Written.
- That's the Rules As Written (in case you hadn't noticed).
All you're saying is "Rules Bad. Me No Likey. Excuses."
It's akin to saying you don't need to stay on your side of the road when driving, even though the rules of the road rather explicitly say traffic flowing in one direction belongs on one side of the roadway (leaving the other side for traffic in the other direction on two way roads). Just because you don't like that rule ... so therefore the entire road ought to be yours for the taking at any time (and for any reason) regardless of who else might be using it at the time ... well ... accidents do happen ...
Not this obvious fallacy of thinking again ...
Um ... because starship operation costs is a separate topic?
It's a related one, don't get me wrong ... but starship operating costs do not control (meaning: dictate) the pricing for transport of goods and passengers.
Starship operating costs are a function of starship design (wild range of possibilities there!) and location of operations (meaning: the map matters). I know that's hard to believe sometimes, but it's true.
The "name of the game" is to design starships to have operating costs under their revenue generating capacity (so they can turn a profit) ... not to change the rules and standards around the cost of shipping to guarantee that every ship is profitable regardless of conditions.
Costs are one side of the ledger.
Revenues are the other side of the ledger.
The combination of the two determines profits and losses.
Try not to get them confused with each other ... it's bad for business.
Pffft. Standards.
Who needs 'em, am I right?
Hey, where did everybody go?
Congratulations!
You have come to the WRONG conclusion for CT with absolute and unshakeable confidence!
Have a
It's not per jump.
It's also not per parsec as you so blithely assert.
Pricing is from port of call to port of call ... there's a difference (especially with ships that are capable of multiple jumps without refueling).
For ships that can only jump once per load of fuel, it effectively is a "per jump" calculation ... but that's a simplification (for convenience) of the rule (a limited subset of possibilities) ... not the actual rule itself.
Think I have said this before but megacorps would operate on a different level then tramp traders.
No financing for ships because they are built from cash and class discounts automatically builds in a lot of room for slimmer margins. Very Vilani long range planning….
Operating above the lots level of LBBs means sector lines are going to want and need guaranteed contracts spanning decades at a rate that justifies the multi jump 5K plus ships. Fortunately we have that in the industrial worlds and how well expensive cargoes travel.
Speculation informs us that most manufactured goods are -3 to -5 DM for cost to buy on IND worlds, meaning effectively 30 to 50% less and that is speculation pricing not actual maker margin.
Then consider that you can now have 10-20% shipping cost built into a product and it’s still cheaper sourced from an IND world then locally made, that’s the makings of long range trade routes.
That brings us to the principle of value per ton defines how far the goods can travel and likely bring a profit.
Assuming a per parsec rate model and Cr100000 per ton value, 10% shipping overhead is a range of 10 parsecs. Where it gets interesting is at MCr1 or more, that’s 100 parsecs.
If one goes with the RAW per jump model, I’d say a good average for major moves is J-3 so x3 for the above profitable shipping ranges.
So now we have a reason for why all those worlds have not bootstrapped themselves to a comfy TL12 or so- cheaper high end goods are raining down from the skies and you WILL trade or else.
Velocity of goods is also valuable both in terms of speed of market reaction and reducing total goods that have to be in the pipeline, an interstellar version of JIT.
Major structural reasons could exist for the 3I to want to promote the per jump rate model, above all to undercut independence and promote interdependence. Also, having rates that locals cannot match/compete keeps megacorps and their associated nobles on top or at least not having to worry about being knocked off their perch.
Thought of a way megacorps and sector lines might make this work- the subsidized mega freighter. The primary contracting megacorps takes the role of government like subsidized liner and dictates the route and shares profits including the income from their own cargoes. The sector line operates and makes money from speculation. The sector line is not risking/tying up capital and the megacorps is committing financing and therefore guaranteed cargo to justify their investment.
A subtle bit about this is these sector lines can operate private x-boat mail and quickly move personnel across sectors.
No financing for ships because they are built from cash and class discounts automatically builds in a lot of room for slimmer margins. Very Vilani long range planning….
Operating above the lots level of LBBs means sector lines are going to want and need guaranteed contracts spanning decades at a rate that justifies the multi jump 5K plus ships. Fortunately we have that in the industrial worlds and how well expensive cargoes travel.
Speculation informs us that most manufactured goods are -3 to -5 DM for cost to buy on IND worlds, meaning effectively 30 to 50% less and that is speculation pricing not actual maker margin.
Then consider that you can now have 10-20% shipping cost built into a product and it’s still cheaper sourced from an IND world then locally made, that’s the makings of long range trade routes.
That brings us to the principle of value per ton defines how far the goods can travel and likely bring a profit.
Assuming a per parsec rate model and Cr100000 per ton value, 10% shipping overhead is a range of 10 parsecs. Where it gets interesting is at MCr1 or more, that’s 100 parsecs.
If one goes with the RAW per jump model, I’d say a good average for major moves is J-3 so x3 for the above profitable shipping ranges.
So now we have a reason for why all those worlds have not bootstrapped themselves to a comfy TL12 or so- cheaper high end goods are raining down from the skies and you WILL trade or else.
Velocity of goods is also valuable both in terms of speed of market reaction and reducing total goods that have to be in the pipeline, an interstellar version of JIT.
Major structural reasons could exist for the 3I to want to promote the per jump rate model, above all to undercut independence and promote interdependence. Also, having rates that locals cannot match/compete keeps megacorps and their associated nobles on top or at least not having to worry about being knocked off their perch.
Thought of a way megacorps and sector lines might make this work- the subsidized mega freighter. The primary contracting megacorps takes the role of government like subsidized liner and dictates the route and shares profits including the income from their own cargoes. The sector line operates and makes money from speculation. The sector line is not risking/tying up capital and the megacorps is committing financing and therefore guaranteed cargo to justify their investment.
A subtle bit about this is these sector lines can operate private x-boat mail and quickly move personnel across sectors.
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Two things can be true simultaneously:
1. The Traveller freight rules work for a small-scale merchant campaign, providing for some advancement before players get beyond its limits.
2. The Traveller freight rules are inconsistent with both real-world economic forces and the game's fictional starship cost structure, and don't work outside the scope of a small-scale merchant campaign.
1. The Traveller freight rules work for a small-scale merchant campaign, providing for some advancement before players get beyond its limits.
2. The Traveller freight rules are inconsistent with both real-world economic forces and the game's fictional starship cost structure, and don't work outside the scope of a small-scale merchant campaign.
Oh ya like that’s fun to argue over!
The place to have settled this was the Merchant’s LBB. Instead it was the worst LBB by far with a speculation/competition system that had the taste of rancid cardboard.
So want something to fix in CT? Fix that LBB.
This is sort of great, because then per the real world, you get a percentage back at the end of the year, say the difference between the refined and unrefined total cost. So that not only are there subsidized trade ships, also subsidized fuel refineries ...
mmm
Vargr Breath
SOC-13
With all the rules for Trade and the worry about making a buck (Cr.) hanging over you, that is why we did exploration. Being employees of the government owned Star Freight Line with a grant from the University of Hyperborea takes a lot of that worry away. We would roll a subsector for world occurrence but would only roll the world characteristics as we jumped to that world. More of a Star Trek and The Imperial Fringe type of game. Annic Nova was added when it came out to take a lot of the worry about refueling in each system. We added an extra armed Pinnace that could dock on the starboard or port shaft that was carried on the cargo dock.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
It could well be that freight and passenger rates are fixed by the Imperium.
They could also be subsidized as well, by various corporate and/or governmental entities.
They could also be subsidized as well, by various corporate and/or governmental entities.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Um ... we're still doing it ... over 40 years later ...?
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