CT Only: What One Thing Would You Change About Classic Traveller?

[McPerth]

After staff discussion, thread reopened, but beware the mod warnings above

 

[Straybow]

I apologize for condescending tone, and for wasting your time sorting this out.

I tried to keep it somewhat light-hearted. As I said, doesn't bother my thick skin. I don't know if such debate is tolerated in Random Static. I would be amenable to pulling posts here into a thread there and continuing (Marquis of Queensbury, fifteen rounds). I didn't think to move discussion elsewhere until thread got locked, and then didn't want to start one myself or bring it up until something was resolved here.

 

[Vargr Breath]

Minor nitpick: Mail contracts require the ship to have a gunner, and a weapon (Type S comes stock with a double turret so that part's already covered).

Major nitpick: Mail is limited to subsidy-qualifying ships. "Subsidized merchants may receive mail delivery contracts, usually as an adjunct to their established routes." (LBB2 '81, p. 9).

As a house rule, it's certainly plausible that some entities might contract with a Type S for a mail delivery service. The text of the rule does not support it, though. The plain reading is that ships that are subsidized under the subsidy rules are likely also eligible for mail contracts, though such contracts are neither guaranteed nor mandatory. If mail contracts were an option for any other ships, it would not have been necessary for the rule to mention "subsidized merchants" at all. Again, you're proposing a quite reasonable house rule, but one that's in direct conflict with the rules as written.

To be fair, this thread is about proposing changes to CT.

77 rules on the Type S
One double turret is installed at the vessel’s single hardpoint, but no weaponry is included.

81 rules on the Type S
One double turret with its fire control is installed on the ship's hardpoint, but no weaponry is mounted.

If you allow the Type S to carry the mail in YTU, you'll have to add weapons but with the turret already there. Or with the turret and fire control it makes it less costly.

 

[Spinward Flow]

If you allow the Type S to carry the mail in YTU, you'll have to add weapons but with the turret already there. Or with the turret and fire control it makes it less costly.

Basically, you don't need to buy the turret too (a MCr0.5 expense) in addition to the weaponry.
The fire control is simply reserved space for whatever weaponry gets mounted into the turret.

Note that in more civilized/controlled (meaning: well patrolled) space, the turret can be left empty just fine. An adversary won't necessarily be able to discern what the contents of that dual turret are as far as weapons are concerned from a sensor scan, so simply having an empty dual turret can be adequate as a "bluff" warding off a would be attacker. If there's no turret at all, an attacker can safely assume you're unarmed (because you have no turret). But if there's a turret there, you might be armed and you might not ... so as an attacker, are you feeling lucky?

That measure of uncertainty for an adversary is worth the expense of making a dual turret a standard feature, whether or not any weapons are loaded into it. The "poker faced captain" move of orienting a dual turret to track an approaching ship has some value to it as a warning signal, even if it's just a bluff.

Okay, it's not much of a bluff ... but it's better than nothing.

 

[Vargr Breath]

Basically, you don't need to buy the turret too (a MCr0.5 expense) in addition to the weaponry.
The fire control is simply reserved space for whatever weaponry gets mounted into the turret.

Note that in more civilized/controlled (meaning: well patrolled) space, the turret can be left empty just fine. An adversary won't necessarily be able to discern what the contents of that dual turret are as far as weapons are concerned from a sensor scan, so simply having an empty dual turret can be adequate as a "bluff" warding off a would be attacker. If there's no turret at all, an attacker can safely assume you're unarmed (because you have no turret). But if there's a turret there, you might be armed and you might not ... so as an attacker, are you feeling lucky?

That measure of uncertainty for an adversary is worth the expense of making a dual turret a standard feature, whether or not any weapons are loaded into it. The "poker faced captain" move of orienting a dual turret to track an approaching ship has some value to it as a warning signal, even if it's just a bluff.

Okay, it's not much of a bluff ... but it's better than nothing.

They might pull your mail contract if an inspection shows that you're not really armed. This might be a good time to have bribery-3.

 

[Spinward Flow]

If you want a mail contract, at a minimum you're going to NEED to have a pulse laser (MCr0.5) or a missile launcher (MCr0.75) loaded into that turret and a gunner on payroll (sandcasters don't count as offensive weapons). With a mail contract, armament and crew is NOT OPTIONAL.

I was just thinking that there's going to be a LOT of Scout/Couriers out there that won't have mail contracts ... and thus won't need to be armed ... but they can lean on the "halo effect" of those Scout/Couriers out there which are armed to give them a chance to bluff, even when they've really got nothing.

 

[whartung]

I was just thinking that there's going to be a LOT of Scout/Couriers out there that won't have mail contracts

Well, none of them will have mail contracts.

Subsidies: The government may subsidize larger commercial vessels (built on type 600 hulls or larger), primarily to assure consistent service to specific worlds.

Subsidized merchants may receive mail delivery contracts, usually as an adjunct to their established routes.

So, if you want a mail contract, you need to be subsidized. If you want to be subsidized, you need a 600 ton ship or larger.

As well as a gun and a gunner.

 

[Spinward Flow]

So, if you want a mail contract, you need to be subsidized. If you want to be subsidized, you need a 600 ton ship or larger.

{sigh}
We've already had this discussion before.
Just don't claim that "the rules are merely guidelines" the next time they say something you find inconvenient if you're going to take that approach in this instance.

I consider the 600 ton hulls or larger "thing" to be something that slipped past editing/quality control at the time as the text was being revised/rewritten more than once. I personally consider it to be an errata as far as the authority of the text cited goes, mainly because it's incomplete and no explanation for the "600 tons or bust!" is ever provided anywhere at any time (it's just arbitrary).

Likewise, the "subsidized merchants MAY receive mail delivery contracts" cited is merely an inclusive statement, rather than an exclusive one. Exclusive phrasing would have been "ONLY subsidized merchants CAN receive mail delivery contracts" which is clearly not what was written (as you've cited and as I have also cited in the past). I interpret that to mean that when you're getting set up with a subsidy, a mail contract is an option that can come with the package (if the other requirements of armament and crew and 5 tons of dedicated cargo space are met). A subsidy is merely ONE WAY to get such mail contracts ... as opposed to being the EXCLUSIVE ONLY WAY to get them.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Likewise, the "subsidized merchants MAY receive mail delivery contracts" cited is merely an inclusive statement, rather than an exclusive one. Exclusive phrasing would have been "ONLY subsidized merchants CAN receive mail delivery contracts"

If the rule was meant to apply to just any ship, they wouldn't have needed to mention subsidized merchants at all. Yet they did.

I read it (and it seems the only plausible reading) as saying that while only subsidy-eligible ships under contract can carry mail, it is neither automatic (ref approves or declines) nor mandatory (player may decline).

I'd have little issue with a house rule allowing Type Ss to get mail contracts (honestly, in-universe the IISS built and uses them for exactly that purpose), but it would still be a house rule.

 

[whartung]

I consider the 600 ton hulls or larger "thing" to be something that slipped past editing/quality control at the time as the text was being revised/rewritten more than once.

Slipped past? Indeed. Let's see how they cleaned that up years later.

The government may subsidize larger commercial vessels (built on type 600 hulls or larger), primarily to assure consistent service to specific worlds.

That's Mega Traveller. Somehow they continued to overlook their editing slippage here while adding another paragraph describing routes between 2 to 12 worlds.

The government may subsidize larger commercial vessels (built on 400-ton hulls or larger), primarily to assure consistent service to specific worlds.

That's TNE, where, indeed, they corrected their glaring 16 year oversight reducing the constraint to 400-ton ships. Or are they wrong here also?

It should also be noted that in my shiny, new, freshly printed LWB, there's nothing in the errata about this. Shall I quote "The Traveller Book" too?

Likewise, the "subsidized merchants MAY receive mail delivery contracts"

Yes, MAY, as in not every subsidized merchant will get a mail contract. It's up to the subsidizing government to offer it. 5000 a ton is lucrative deal. Through CT, MT, TNE the wording is consistent.

In TNE they even go on to say:

In the Old Expanses and Pocket Empires, such mail delivery is part of the reason why the government owns a portions of the ship.

That is, a constituent goal of government investment is to ensure mail delivery. Suggesting that they can't ensure mail delivery if they don't own a portion of the ship. That mail delivery is so important, the government needs to have a thumb on the scales affecting the behavior of the trader. "Mess up the mail, and you lose your subsidy, which would be Bad(tm)."

Also we have this tidbit, also consistent across CT, MT, TNE.

Other ships may be approached to deliver private messages,

I'll use my "Curse of Oak Island Narrator Voice" here: Other ships? Other than what? Why the distinction? Why "other" at all? Why not just "ships"? Another "slip" up that lingered for 16 years of never getting re-read and corrected? Or is it intentional?

Seems pretty clear it means "other ships than the subsidized merchants with mail routes". As in "if I don't have a subsidized merchant, how can I carry mail?" This is the wildcard that lets Joe Patron approach Capt. Jameson or Engineers Mate Tommy Wrenchturner with an "urgent message" to be conveyed with due haste.

Now, of course a rebuttal might be "See! May! does that mean that a Subsidized Merchant ship won't be approached to deliver a private message"? And one can admit, sure, that seems silly. But at the same time, why should they when they can put a stamp on it and have it delivered anyway, along with the rest of the mail. Or, simply, it's yet more specification that, indeed, the mail contract is not for ships that are not subsidized. That there are two different classes of vessels. Subsidized Merchants and "others".

Government programs have qualifications. Apparently a requirement for a subsidy is a minimum ship sized, and a requirement to participate in the mail program is to be armed and already subsidized.

 

[Vargr Breath]

If the rule was meant to apply to just any ship, they wouldn't have needed to mention subsidized merchants at all. Yet they did.

I read it (and it seems the only plausible reading) as saying that while only subsidy-eligible ships under contract can carry mail, it is neither automatic (ref approves or declines) nor mandatory (player may decline).

I'd have little issue with a house rule allowing Type Ss to get mail contracts (honestly, in-universe the IISS built and uses them for exactly that purpose), but it would still be a house rule.

CT runs on house rules. As long as everyone in group agrees with them why not? If the game your running says only 600-ton ships, I can live with that, but if his game has Type-S ships painted white with a red, white, and blue stripe down the middle I can live with that also. I borrowed (stole) many a house rules over the years. I think they make the games interesting. Just my 2crs.

 

[Spinward Flow]

@whartung I have two points to make about the "subsidy is a precondition for mail" approach.

The first point is ... that everything being discussed in those passages about Cr5000 per ton (max 5 tons) mail delivery contracts is that they are precisely that ... CONTRACTS. The ship is contractually obligated to carry mail. What is the mechanism used to guarantee that the terms of the contract will be honored? The subsidy agreement.

So you've got a little bit of a chicken vs egg thing going on. The subsidy can run the mail that requires a subsidy so it can run the mail that needs a subsidized ship to be a mail carrier.

Now ... start reading between those lines a little bit (you don't need to go too far) and the intention behind the reasoning for that ought to become clear. Mail contracts are going to require what amount to "routine deliveries" even if the route (per se) isn't decided from the outset. In other words, ships that can "go anywhere" like a tramp freighter are not going to be suitable candidates for mail contracts.

For simplicity purposes of illustration ... let's say a ship gets mail contracts with destinations A, B and C.
So long as the ship makes deliveries to those destinations ... A, B, and C ... they'll be given mail to deliver to those destinations.
But if the ship "wanders off" to go to destinations D, E and F (which are outside the mail delivery destinations) then the ship won't be given mail to take to destinations D, E and F (and so on).
In other words, a tramp freighter that isn't "tied" to a particular set of destinations would not be suitable for a mail contract.
Conversely, a ship that is operating within a defined range of systems (say ... 2-12 of them, for example?) can be set up to operate with mail contracts for those systems.

Basically, the subsidy is there to ensure that a ship operated by Players isn't going to wander "too far off the reservation" while under contract to deliver mail. What is the mechanism for doing that? Game mechanically speaking, the binding obligations of a subsidy, to keep them operating within a defined range among a specific set of destinations (the subsidy locations).

Now ... everything that I've outlined there is backdrop consistent with how interstellar mail presumably would be set up to operate. The Postal Unions involved don't want ships wandering off with their mail. The rules system provided in the LBBs (and now LWBs) are what a Player and a Referee needs to know in order to run a campaign and set the expectations appropriately within that campaign. Players are "ornery cusses" who are highly prone to "wander off the reservation" ... especially when the scent of adventure can be smelled in the (recycled) air, and not all of them like being "tied down" to a specific location on the map.

However, companies (megacorp and below) aren't "Players" in the same sense as the people sitting around a table with dice are "Players" in this context. Private companies would be perfectly capable of setting up contracts with Postal Unions just like a subsidy ship would except that the mail contracts are a private contractual obligation rather than a subsidized one. The only real difference is that a private enterprise funds the ship involved, rather than a government (and given that government code: 1 is a corporate government, how much of a distinction really needs to be made here on this point?).

So instead of a government paying for a ship and the captain is under contract to run it ... a company pays for a ship and the captain is under contract to run it. The only difference as far as the financing of the ship is concerned is who is paying for the mortgage payments (assuming the ship isn't paid off in cash upon delivery from the shipyard). Bank loan, subsidy or private cash payout is immaterial with respect to what the ship can be hired to do. However, the frequency with which a ship will be expected to visit specific ports of call ... that is very much a determining factor as to whether or not a ship ought to be given a mail contract with a Postal Union.

At the outside, 12 systems in a subsidy creates an expectation of ~2 trips to each destination per year (on average) minimum per system. In actual operation it will probably wind up being that some systems are visited by the ship no more than once per year, while other systems in the grouping get visited multiple times ... but the point I'm wanting to make here is an expectation that a ship contractually obligated to deliver mail ought to be visiting each destination it has a mail contract with an AVERAGE of twice per year (preferred) and a minimum of at least ONCE per year (mandatory). That should be the contractual minimum obligation of mail deliveries to get a mail contract for each destination ... and you need a mail contract for each destination you plan to deliver mail to.

Now a subsidy can do all of that setup legwork for you (it's baked into the subsidy and the subsidizing government does the legwork to make it happen) ... but there's nothing which says that a private operator couldn't set themselves up with mail contracts on their own if they meet the qualifications (two deliveries per year preferred, one delivery per year minimum, 5 tons dedicated cargo space set aside, armed, gunner in crew) but an independent operator would need to go to each of the destinations and sign contracts with each of them individually to deliver mail to them. This CAN BE DONE ... but there's more "hassle" involved (from a Player at the gaming table's perspective, since you have to jump through hoops to make it happen) so it's more complex than the subsidy route. However, accepting the option necessarily means that any ship running mail under contract is going to be more "firmly tied" to a specific collection of worlds (minimum 2, with the useful maximum probably being 12) ... which starts sounding an awful lot like a subsidy arrangement at that point (except the financing for the ship is either private or bank financed instead of subsidized).

Now ... all of that more in depth explanation needed A LOT more word count to make it clear than would have been available in the LBB format, but you need that fuller understanding and insight to properly grasp what would be involved with a mail contract that does not rely on a subsidy. I think it's fair to say that the whole notion wasn't considered all that deeply (I may have put more thought into it here in this post than the original writers of the LBBs did) so rather than expound on the nuances in a way that could enrich the game experience and setting, the whole thing got simplified down to what amounts to "bone shavings" as far the details were concerned.

After all ... how many adventures can the MAILMAN get up to ... am I right?



The whole thing with the "other ships can carry private messages" thing is pretty obviously intended to be used as a Plot Hook and means for PCs to encounter and interact with Patron NPCs. It literally is a case of "using alternate channels" for messaging (via Carrier Pigeon Packet Protocol) that hopefully will not be intercepted. It also gives the Referee a chance for a "don't shoot the messenger!" setup for a campaign adventure.



In computer gaming, there's a phrase that I think we are all familiar with and dread hearing ... Working As Intended.

What programmers often mean by that phrase is that something is WORKING as intended ... which basically amounts to saying that a bit of code isn't causing fatal errors that crash the program to desktop (or the Blue Screen Of Death™). The programming WORKS is the important thing for a lot of developers (and game designers).

What players often times key in on is whether something is working as INTENDED ... which gets to questions of the INTENT behind exactly HOW and WHY something is working the way that it does. It is perfectly possible for a system to "work" while utterly failing at its "intended" purpose (so it "works" but not the way people want it to).

In order for congruence of perspective to be achieved, a system not only needs to WORK well but also requires its INTENT to be understood congruently by both/all parties.

Sometimes, even when something is WORKING you need to more closely examine the INTENT operating behind it to truly grasp the proper context and meaning (and achieve the deeper understanding of enlightenment ... blah blah blah). When something "works" but doesn't do what you "want" (or intended it to do) that's a different flavor of problem that requires understanding the intent (more completely) before you can solve the problem of making things work "the way they should" in the proper context.



And it's at this point that the electrical engineer who wants to resist the current thinking begins chanting "Ohm. Ohm. Ohm..."

 

[whartung]

(I may have put more thought into it here in this post than the original writers of the LBBs did)

Us? Here? Say it ain't so!

We can look at our current world broadly. We have two kind of delivery systems. The private market (FedEx, UPS, etc.) and the USPS. Outside of basically costs and the limitation that private carriers can't carry "first class mail" (whatever that means), they're essentially identical.

But the USPS is part of the Federal Govt so has additional obligations. That means, if you want to do business with the USPS, there are large hoops to jump through. In contrast, FedEx, for example, (as I understand it) today privately contracts out much of its ground delivery. Simply, rather than operating a fleet of trucks themselves, they operate a fleet of lawyers and administrators contracting out to folks who run FedEx labeled trucks. These relationships are not (probably) as rigid as perhaps a USPS relationship. But the USPS has an obligation that FedEx does not have. They have the obligation of delivering mail to everyone. FedEx doesn't have that obligation.

So, it's easy to see how perhaps a private starship can get a private contract with a private shipper under different terms than a government shipper. The subsidy (which still takes a boat load of money to get in to -- 20MCr for the down payment) lands the operator with a commitment to the government in terms of routing and financial obligations, an albatross of a ship who's hold they can't fill, and no equity. But they do save 420KCr per month in ship payments. And, since they've been vetted by the government, the can get that mail contract (which the govt takes 50% of on the back end thankyouverymuch).

It gets more fun, the "larger commercial vessels (built on type 600 hulls or larger)" mentioned in the subsidy rules are all well and good, but the Subsidized Merchant ship type R is a 400 ton ship. Doh!

We all know that somehow GDW wasn't able to capture the vast menagerie and complexities of, well, anything in a 100+ small pages of rules and there are ... gaps.

"RAW", it's pretty clear (however imperfect) the mail and subsidy relationship exists. If YTU wants to offer government mail to any stagecoach with a shotgun, feel free. If you want to carry FedEx packages, consult with your local referee.

 

[Spinward Flow]

If YTU wants to offer government mail to any stagecoach with a shotgun, feel free. If you want to carry FedEx packages, consult with your local referee.

Let's say I prefer to keep the options open ... that way if a Referee denies the mail contract(s), it's because of something other than 5 tons of cargo hold set aside, weaponry mounted and a gunner on payroll. At that point, it becomes a matter of "find the missing puzzle piece" so as to get from NO to YES (being most of the way there already).

 

[Grav_Moped]

Let's say I prefer to keep the options open ... that way if a Referee denies the mail contract(s), it's because of something other than 5 tons of cargo hold set aside, weaponry mounted and a gunner on payroll. At that point, it becomes a matter of "find the missing puzzle piece" so as to get from NO to YES (being most of the way there already).

The problem (under the usual reading of the rule) is that the task isn't "figure out what needs to go into Block23a of Form 2375 that'll convince them to allow me to do it". There is no truthful (and they'll figure it out soon enough) entry for that block for a non-subsidizeable (and actually subsidized) ship.

The task is to "find out who (if anyone) has authority to waive the regulation, and convince them to make an exception on your behalf" or, failing that, "get the regulation changed through the normal governmental process, whatever that happens to be".

All this while keeping in mind that anyone waiving the regulation is obligating over half a megacredit per year of government funds in doing so -- this won't be a minor clerk's responsibility.

 

[Condottiere]

Just the mail vault and the shotgun rider, or does the mail ship need more capacity?

 

[HanleyTucks]

CT runs on house rules.

Agreed! As I said here - https://www.thevikinghatgm.com/2021/02/ct-books-1-3-you-fill-in-blanks.html - the rules, especially books 1-3, are incomplete, and that's a good thing.

By the by, the same applies to many games, especially those from the 1970s and early 80s. There are usually big chunks missing, but it's natural for our own imaginations to fill in those blanks - unprompted. And that's what makes each game group and each campaign fun, that the players and referee can fiddle with things to make the rules and playstyle fit themselves and the others around the game table. You fill in the blanks!

I may have put more thought into it here in this post than the original writers of the LBBs did

I don't think so. But I think they expected you as referee to put more thought into your campaign than they put into the rules. The skeleton weighs less than the flesh covering it, and the organs giving it life.

 

[Vargr Breath]

The problem (under the usual reading of the rule) is that the task isn't "figure out what needs to go into Block23a of Form 2375 that'll convince them to allow me to do it". There is no truthful (and they'll figure it out soon enough) entry for that block for a non-subsidizeable (and actually subsidized) ship.

The task is to "find out who (if anyone) has authority to waive the regulation, and convince them to make an exception on your behalf" or, failing that, "get the regulation changed through the normal governmental process, whatever that happens to be".

All this while keeping in mind that anyone waiving the regulation is obligating over half a megacredit per year of government funds in doing so -- this won't be a minor clerk's responsibility.

That's why you have Bribery, Forgery, Streetwise, and Admin. These are the tools to help you out at times like this. That and a GM who wants the game to go that way.

 

[Spinward Flow]

We can look at our current world broadly. We have two kind of delivery systems. The private market (FedEx, UPS, etc.) and the USPS.

Put into a Traveller context, the USPS are primarily doing "last mile delivery" to individual mailboxes, while FedEx and UPS are doing bulk shipments between distribution hub cities.

Now, if I take that same sentence and switch a few words around to shift the context ...

Put into a Traveller context, the USPS Postal Unions are primarily doing "last mile delivery" to individual mailboxes, while FedEx and UPS mail contracted starships are doing bulk shipments between distribution hub cities starports in different star systems.

Basically the same idea, just on a different (distance) scale and in a slightly different context (jump required) ... but the principle is essentially the same. The Postal Unions contract out delivery of mail to/from other star systems and the contracted starships carry that mail to/from their system. Such a contract will need to be on a "repeat basis" (rather than just a One And Done) with the ship returning "every so often" to keep delivering mail (no set schedule, but it needs to keep happening and how often will usually be specified in the contract).

After that, everything is admin, handshakes and signing on the dotted line.

That's why you have Bribery, Forgery, Streetwise, and Admin. These are the tools to help you out at times like this. That and a GM who wants the game to go that way.

Aye.
Those are alternative routes to the same destination.
As the old saying goes, there's more than one way to skin a domesticated feline.

Point being that a government subsidy is merely ONE WAY to achieve this outcome ... and it's a "shortcut" since the subsidizing government is basically going to do all the legwork for you in setting up those mail contracts. But it's not the ONLY way to obtain those contracts. It can be done privately by individuals and/or private enterprises willing and able to make the commitment (under contract) ... it's just that you'll have to secure the mail contracts "yourself" in that case, rather than "outsourcing" the job of getting those mail contracts to a government to get them for you.



"And that's how I met your mother."
- How these stories tend to wind up going ...

 

[Vargr Breath]

"After all ... how many adventures can the MAILMAN get up to ... am I right? "

https://www.legendsofamerica.com/we-ponyexpressriders/