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What the deal with swords

There's a lot of debate on exactly how the real items were made, but in general I would sum things up like this:

Curved blades are better at slicing and cutting than straight blades are. The reason for this is that the blade tends to "rock" through as well as slide by the target on a stroke. This dual action makes these weapons nasty on unarmored targets, and also makes them rather effective at wrecking flexible armors such as chain and boiled leather.

Straight blades are better at penetration and easier to thrust with. A properly constructed straight blade will have a center of percussion about a third of the way back from the tip (similar to a baseball bat's "sweet spot"). When the blade strikes an object, all vibration modes are nullified in the COP... transferring the blade's energy (percussive and vibratory) into that zone. They are most definately NOT sharpened clubs.

Now, this is a bit of an oversimplification, but blades would play havoc with vac suits, cloth armor, and yes, even combat armor. There are also other ways to hybrizide weapons... falchions and cutlasses tended to be tip heavy to aid in penetration, leaf blades provide some blade curvature to aid in cutting... and so on.

There is also a good bit of historical and anecdotal evidence for swords carving though even heavy plate armor. Advances in metalurgy and design could help to compensate for better armor (which would likely be designed mainly to offset firearms).

Even so, any nutter who charges battledress (or even nice shiny alien warbots :rolleyes: ) with a cutlass needs to have his head examined (or a VERY good reason for doing so :cool: )

In a vacuum environment (boarding actions) where any breach in your suit is deadly... a weapon like this would be nasty at close quarters. Especially if the defenders are using long bulky firearms.

The T20 game mechanics don't exactly show bare this out... as swords don't have enough dice to penetrate armor effectively. What I've been doing IMTU is to allow the sword to damage the armor on non-critical strikes. (Reduced by AR, of course) This doesn't make them drastically deadly per se, but after one or two good hits even combat armor is becoming rather useless.

I'm also allowing AOA's against firearms one size class larger than the wielder when in melee (e.g., rifles) to represent the fact that they need some maneuvering room.

YMMV.
 
All I have to say is this...

Marines on modern ships don't carry swords.

Swords were used back when your musket was good for one round and then melee ensued.....

This is not to say that hand-to-hand fighting doesn't occur, it's just not what is planned for. And, having a sword as your backup weapon (or even your primary weapon) may have a romantic flair to it, but when the shiet hits the fan and you're over-run odds are you'll use your rifle as a club before you take the time to draw a sword....
 
Tim:

Agreed... bullets are preferable. BUT, then again modern ship boarding doesn't see much use of body armor (other than flack jackets) either. Traveller has nifty things like CES and combat armor running around which make the rifle club thing much harder to make viable.

And you are right... the sword thing is almost pure romance from a game setting perspective.

BUT, it is a viable alternative at close quarters. And the poor sot who's vac suit you just sliced open is a bit preoccupied at the moment with keeping his air inside his suit to be worried about fighting you. This sort of thing tends to make short work of individuals not so armed.

I'm not saying that the marines should hang up the gauss rifles and use only blades... but close in the blade does make a useful item to have around.
 
Originally posted by Big Tim:
All I have to say is this...

Marines on modern ships don't carry swords.

Marines on modern ships do not have to worry about Vacuum in case of a Hull Breach.

Also, as some said before, the sword can perforate/slice through a vac suit better than using your rifle as a club
 
And again( sorry) a sword or an axe does nae run out of ammo. NOr do they make noise in a vaccuum boarding.
The poor devil thus skwewered / whacked makes the noise!
 
Originally posted by Big Tim:
All I have to say is this...

Marines on modern ships don't carry swords.
Nope they carry spears. That is a bayonet on the end of their rifle. Handy thing to have when you run out of bullets...

Hunter
 
Originally posted by hunter:
Nope they carry spears. That is a bayonet on the end of their rifle. Handy thing to have when you run out of bullets...
Mostly, I think, the shotgun is the primary weapon (lest that's what I've seen the most of when I've been aboard carriers). But, IMO, a backup last-resort weapon doesn't mean it's a primary one.

I'd think it'd make more sense to have a bayonet skill instead of a cutlass skill for the Marines (but that's me).

And, as for melee combat in zero-G -- think about it. Melee combat requires balance and force...none of which you have in zero-G. Not only that the 1.5m height and 1.5m width of the passageways on most ships is a bit cramped for a slashing weapon......hell, I myself couldn't stand up straight on a Traveller ship, I'd have to hunch over to the point of having it be easier to be on my knees.

....besides...everyone knows that a flame-thrower is the *best* boarding party weapon ;)

I'm reminded of a Traveller game I played a long time ago...we were using the Spectrum Combat System and I had a character with a fully automatic shotgun...he was a computer tech/rogue and his partner in crime was a career marine. We were arguing about how'd go through the door first -- the Marine thought it stupid for the tech to go first and my character just argued that he had the fully auto shotgun......we had our GM in stitches for a couple of hours
 
Originally posted by Big Tim:
<snip>

Not only that the 1.5m height and 1.5m width of the passageways on most ships is a bit cramped for a slashing weapon......hell, I myself couldn't stand up straight on a Traveller ship, I'd have to hunch over to the point of having it be easier to be on my knees.

<snip>
Just a friendly correction of a misinterpretation Big Tim, Traveller deck height is about 3.0 m overall. Generally fully open in cargo and hanger areas, closed in to about 2.0 m in other areas with the remaining 1.0 m given over to life support, wiring and other conduits, Alien(tm) corridors
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etc.
 
Originally posted by Gallowglass:
Ah, this old saw:

Could we perhaps look to compiling a FAQ covering topics such as the Marines continued use of the Cutlass in the OTU and have it in a stickied thread?

Cheers,

Nick Middleton
Or even, as you demonstrated, let newbies know there is a pretty good search function built in and advise before begining a 'new' topic they could check a bit and see if their question is already answered or if a sleeping topic warrants awakening.
 
Originally posted by far-trader:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Gallowglass:
Ah, this old saw:

Could we perhaps look to compiling a FAQ covering topics such as the Marines continued use of the Cutlass in the OTU and have it in a stickied thread?

Cheers,

Nick Middleton
Or even, as you demonstrated, let newbies know there is a pretty good search function built in and advise before begining a 'new' topic they could check a bit and see if their question is already answered or if a sleeping topic warrants awakening. </font>[/QUOTE]or you could just ignore it and let people discuss what they want .

my classic character with dagger 5 outlived them all .
 
Originally posted by hirch duckfinder:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Gallowglass:
Ah, this old saw:

Could we perhaps look to compiling a FAQ covering topics such as the Marines continued use of the Cutlass in the OTU and have it in a stickied thread?

Cheers,

Nick Middleton
Or even, as you demonstrated, let newbies know there is a pretty good search function built in and advise before begining a 'new' topic they could check a bit and see if their question is already answered or if a sleeping topic warrants awakening. </font>[/QUOTE]or you could just ignore it and let people discuss what they want .

my classic character with dagger 5 outlived them all .
</font>[/QUOTE]Oh, I have no objections to people discussing pretty much whatever they want, and even if I did there is precious little I could do, as an average meber of these boards. However, this thread was started by someone in precisely the same territory as the previous discussions, and the same arguments were repeated. This seems to me the sort of situation FAQ's are intended to deal with. If a poster has something new to say on a topic, a specific query or new approach then that's great, but how beneficial is it for everyone (including the poster) to have anoter rambling discourse on a topic, when the gist of the common arguments could be summarised for all to see in a single paragraph in a FAQ?

Cheers,

Nick Middleton
 
Why is carrying a cutlass (a terran tradition) auotmatically an Imperial Tradition? I know it's for the sake of simplicity, but perhaps a system based on culture/tech level could be put in its place? "On Planet Gaucho, we marines carry bolas, senor"

Now, I love my "Clockwork Orange" sword cane, dont get me wrong, but there are times when I think something like a Gladius-like Blade, or even a Zulu Assegai would come in handy (you can throw the assegai as well as stab/slash)

Eh?

omega.gif
 
Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran:
Why is carrying a cutlass (a terran tradition) auotmatically an Imperial Tradition?
Can the idea not penetrate your Vilani stubborness m'lord? The Terrans won the war. The military is a Terran influenced organization; the nobility/merchants may be Vilani but the services are Terran (God bless 'em)

Kulkinski
Vice-Admiral
 
The T20 game mechanics don't exactly show bare this out... as swords don't have enough dice to penetrate armor effectively. What I've been doing IMTU is to allow the sword to damage the armor on non-critical strikes. (Reduced by AR, of course) This doesn't make them drastically deadly per se, but after one or two good hits even combat armor is becoming rather useless.
I believe the armor system does not eliminate the last hit die of damage but in stead subtracts points of damage from that last hit die. So it may in fact be possible to inflict damage on a person wearing combat armor with the T20 system. If I'm wrong, I'd certainly adopt it as a house rule.
 
Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:
I believe the armor system does not eliminate the last hit die of damage but in stead subtracts points of damage from that last hit die. So it may in fact be possible to inflict damage on a person wearing combat armor with the T20 system. If I'm wrong, I'd certainly adopt it as a house rule.
I believe you're correct. The armor deducts points from the last die. However, since most melee weapons are single die damage dealers they're not a great threat to the better armors.

The main reason I did this was that I wanted melee weapons to be more effective IMTU. By allowing them to damage the armor directly, I gave melee weapons a bit more clout in combat, but not so much that people off the street would prefer them to a trusty rifle.
 
I'd like to (hopefully) throw some new life into this much-debated topic. While it is not Canon, I have come up with a simple way to make the cutlass requirement for Marines much more sensible. I designed a Heavy Cutlass that, while in all other respects the same as the Bk 2 weapon, is made to be far too heavy to be used by anyone not wearing Battle Dress. Remember, BD doubles personal strength [and the Heavy Powered Battle Armor mentioned in JTAS reprints Vol #1 triples it.
Thus, all Marines learn (normal) Cutlass skill without BD, so that once armored-up they bring out the H-Cutlass, and can chop and slash their way through just about anything. This keeps all the advantages that have been mentioned, with an extra advantage being that even if an H-cutlass is lost or taken away, it is effectively unusable by anyone else. If watching one of your comrades-in-arms get cut in half by a cutlass-weilding Marine, I don't know what would.
 
The "heavy cutlass" is a cute idea -- making the blade out of, say, bonded superdense metal, would do the trick nicely. Granted, bonded superdense metal requires a power source to stay that way, but the "heavy cutlass" could always plug into a convenient socket in the battle-dress gauntlet...

Still... the whole swords-in-space thing is just one step beyond plausibility to me. Just putting your marines in powered battle-dress would, more or less, eliminate the need for hand-to-hand weapons (at least against un-enhanced opponents). Every punch would end with a nasty crunching and splattering...
 
Despite space ships, laser beams, and interstellar empires, I've always considered the OTU to have a slightly archaic whif about it. Also, the range of tech levels across the 3I allows for worlds/societies where lo-tech weaponry is the norm. While this doesn't apply to Imperial marines per se, who would presumably be trained at high tech levels, it does back up the general preponderance of Blade in the skill tables (everyone but scouts can get it). The Marine cutlass tradition in Traveller is simply a nice game design decision which you can safely ignore in your own game.

I think it is important to note that Imperial marines might not always be fighting "future warfare", given the many environments the Imperium presents.
 
Marines in Battle Dress, with FGMP15's going to town in the control room of a heavy cruiser.
How many peices of electronics would survive to let the winning side manuver the ship?
It might be fun to see what happens to a character group that discovers the pirates attacking the liner they are riding was defended that way. Now they get to fix the control systems with chewing gum and bailing wire.
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How many of them will carry a blade on their next trip? Just to avoid having to rebuild a control room again.
 
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