What the deal with swords
- Thread starter intheburgh
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The Hinterworlds Rambler
SOC-14 5K
The real question, my lords, Is who would use that goofy "Boarding Axe" in TA1? Maybe a model not so covered in spines and gewgaws would be more effective and easier to roll with?
thirdmargrave
SOC-7
Seeing as how the Traveller setting owes more to Adam Smith, the British East India Company, and the Royal Fusiliers than the fatuous fluff of ST:TNG and Andromeda, the notion of Imperial Marine officers going over the top (or through the hatch)with a good length of Sheffield steel in hand makes perfect sense to me. That and all of the perfectly logical reasons for melee weapons in shipboard actions. Remember, Traveller is SCIENCE fiction.
Bob Heinlein said it best but since I dont have my copy of Starship Troopers here so I'll paraphrase it into Traveller terms.
Its hard to press the nuclear button with a 4 foot steel shank in your arm.
There are some other reason swords and blades may be more common that havent been discussed.
Swords are less likely to kill a person than a bullet or laser blast. Sure a lucky shot may take out a vital organ, but for the most part you have to deal with cuts or punctures and not frangible bullets or charred skin and tissue.
Swords are impressive, and were worn well past their terrestrial usefulness for cerimonial purposes. Heck the US Marines today still carry the saber in dress uniform as do all US military officers. Naval petty officers carry a cutlass as part of the flag honor guard, and all the services have little spears to protect them hand to hand.
The discipline required by the study of blade combat and romantic image projected by a gilded shank of superdense polished to a brilliant golden or silver sheen intricately etched with acid give the bearer an air of legitimacy and nobility that a pistol or rifle would not.
It might be more socially acceptable to carry a blade in public in the imperium, even if law enforcement isn't too happy about it. You are less likely to hit a bystander with a sword than a stray bullet.
Its hard to press the nuclear button with a 4 foot steel shank in your arm.
There are some other reason swords and blades may be more common that havent been discussed.
Swords are less likely to kill a person than a bullet or laser blast. Sure a lucky shot may take out a vital organ, but for the most part you have to deal with cuts or punctures and not frangible bullets or charred skin and tissue.
Swords are impressive, and were worn well past their terrestrial usefulness for cerimonial purposes. Heck the US Marines today still carry the saber in dress uniform as do all US military officers. Naval petty officers carry a cutlass as part of the flag honor guard, and all the services have little spears to protect them hand to hand.
The discipline required by the study of blade combat and romantic image projected by a gilded shank of superdense polished to a brilliant golden or silver sheen intricately etched with acid give the bearer an air of legitimacy and nobility that a pistol or rifle would not.
It might be more socially acceptable to carry a blade in public in the imperium, even if law enforcement isn't too happy about it. You are less likely to hit a bystander with a sword than a stray bullet.
thirdmargrave
SOC-7
Blades still have their place in the era of modern projectile weapons. Don't forget the U.S. Marines in Korea or the Royal Marines in the Falklands.
sablewyvern
SOC-12
One of my favourite military quotes:
marginaleye
SOC-12
The absence of non-lethal (stunning/disorienting/disabling) weapons in the canonical universe strikes me as a bit odd (the idea of retaining edged weapons for their supposed non-lethality seems a bit far-fetched). Surely, by Tech Level 15, "taking them alive" wouldn't be that hard. I suppose, however, the widespread use of non-lethal weapons would cut against (no pun intended) the somewhat bloody-minded "H. Beam Piper-ish" look-and-feel of the canonical universe.
Even if the Third Imperium doesn't like/trust non-lethal weapons, I'd be willing to bet that the Zhodani and the Hivers are much more enthusiastic about them -- the Zhodani have great confidence in their ability to "convince" and to "reeducate," and the Hivers are notoriously squeamish.
Seriously, though... how would one go about "taking them alive" at Tech Level 15?
Back to swords -- in tight spaces (as aboard a starship in the process of being boarded) wouldn't some combination of martial arts and fighting knives be more effective than cutlasses?
(assuming no battle-dress, of course).
Even if the Third Imperium doesn't like/trust non-lethal weapons, I'd be willing to bet that the Zhodani and the Hivers are much more enthusiastic about them -- the Zhodani have great confidence in their ability to "convince" and to "reeducate," and the Hivers are notoriously squeamish.
Seriously, though... how would one go about "taking them alive" at Tech Level 15?
Back to swords -- in tight spaces (as aboard a starship in the process of being boarded) wouldn't some combination of martial arts and fighting knives be more effective than cutlasses?
(assuming no battle-dress, of course).
thirdmargrave
SOC-7
Basic swordmanship should be addressed as a martial art in this context. In the Filipino art of Kali (essentially a sword art), there is the incorporation of kicks, strikes, disarms and grappling integral to the use of the weapons (knives, sticks, swords, etc.) Even certain late medieval fencing manuals took elements of wrestling, pummeling and kicking into account. There is much more to the wielding of melee weapons than the simple "hack and slash". As for tight spaces, the cutlass is a traditionally shorter blade, not as long as a saber or traditional broadsword and thus already well suited to action in close quarters.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Well, not completely absent beyond CT. There have long been the old tranq rounds, also included in THB (pp 200 and 204), and Traveller's Aide #1 adds a few more non-lethal weaps to the mix, I think I recall a stun baton, stun fist (brass knuckle with charge) and various sprays. I think the lack of such says more about the type of characters and players that become Travellers, and the type of trouble they are likely to find and/or create.
As for the original question, I'm solidly in the "Its tradition and teaches disipline." camp, so if you think swords are silly have your character join the Army not the Marines
justacaveman
SOC-12
I allow High Tech versions of melee weapons IMTU. These weapons use advanced composites etc.. They cost 10x the cost of a standard weapon, and are available at TL11+.
These weapons have increased Critical Threat ranges (2x the Threat range of standard weapons). This works just like the Improved Critical feat, or Keen weapons in D&D 3E.
An Advanced Cutlass would score a Critical Threat on a roll of 16 or higher.
On the armor side of things, I only halve (Round Down) the AR of fully enclosed armors (Such as Combat Armor, or a Combat Environment Suit with a full helmet etc..) on critical hits rather than no armor. And to determine penetration for loss of suit integrity, I use Armor AR - Stamina damage. A negative result indicates a loss of suit integrity (The bigger the negative, the bigger the rip.) The resulting number is also used as a penalty to repair rolls for slashing weapons.
Example: Joe Marine with 14 STR, scores a Critical Hit with his Advanced Cutlass on a Pirate with TL11 Combat Armor (AR7). Half of AR7 = 3, Joe gets to roll 2d8+2 for Stamina damage, and 1d8 for Lifeblood damage (After AR reductions). He rolls 11 for Stamina damage, and 5 for Lifeblood. A good sized tear, and the Pirate's bleeding also.
These weapons have increased Critical Threat ranges (2x the Threat range of standard weapons). This works just like the Improved Critical feat, or Keen weapons in D&D 3E.
An Advanced Cutlass would score a Critical Threat on a roll of 16 or higher.
On the armor side of things, I only halve (Round Down) the AR of fully enclosed armors (Such as Combat Armor, or a Combat Environment Suit with a full helmet etc..) on critical hits rather than no armor. And to determine penetration for loss of suit integrity, I use Armor AR - Stamina damage. A negative result indicates a loss of suit integrity (The bigger the negative, the bigger the rip.) The resulting number is also used as a penalty to repair rolls for slashing weapons.
Example: Joe Marine with 14 STR, scores a Critical Hit with his Advanced Cutlass on a Pirate with TL11 Combat Armor (AR7). Half of AR7 = 3, Joe gets to roll 2d8+2 for Stamina damage, and 1d8 for Lifeblood damage (After AR reductions). He rolls 11 for Stamina damage, and 5 for Lifeblood. A good sized tear, and the Pirate's bleeding also.
This is my first reply to a string ever so be kind.
I've always been interested in futuretech and advanced materials technology.Wouldn't know how to incorporate these ideas into T20 but i ve had these in my campaigns.These are nice goodies/gimmicks for players or npcs(npcs are better so they are one of a kind and cant be duplicated thus preventing unbalancing Ie.everybody has them now )and well within theoretical limits
1.metal melee wpn with enhanced power pack(doesnt have to be powerful and can be one charge item) that gives energy pulse on frequency/amp? that gives grand mall seizure when hits nervous system(we are talking micro voltage for humans) .This could be used with higher tech stun guns and batons to explain better effects.Squirt gun stunners using water(think super soaker)as carrier for electrical charge could also be used.
additionally item could have 2 effects grand mall and short circuit(emp) for those pesky robots with lasers that give everyone fits.This idea comes from an antho by DEan Ing:firefight 2000 I believe,THey also postulated radio frequency grenades that had the same effects on humans but i figure stun/squirt gun contact would be more plausible(easier to do)
2.Sten knife-a special knife with an edge less than 15 molecules thick,weight of knife blade alone will cut diamond easily
.Only possible with a crystalline metal that"grows" in an exotic atmosphere.Metal properties prevented normal milling,a virus was used to cut it.This was in a book written by allan cole and chris bunch called sten(series about 8 books<excellent scifi)Capabilities of knife were so nasty it was sheathed in same metal .It was very similar to Jedi fighting normals with lightsaber(cuts arm off and sword in half,cuts hand off and goes 16inches into torso etc.).Exotic knife exotic milling,I made it cr 200,000 for a rich merchant, very intimidating.Oh i almost forgot sten had it hidden in his arm under skin and muscle when a certain nerve was used it dropped into his hand.
Ihope these ideas give u guys some grist to chew on id also like to hear how it would work in T20.
I just love the idea of atacking someone in hvy armor with a blade weapon and actually hurting them,the perverseness and terror of the situation.. just really well, appeals to me.
Imagine..A big imperial marine in bd with a fgmp-15,a lone black garbed soldier with a knife.The knife begins to glow or vibrate and spark..scene pans to a 500kg piece of trash laying in the street because his suit has been shorted out or the knife penetrated and connected to his system and he folded like a sack of potatoes.Just a thought let me know what u guys think,srry its so long -----babiuk@mindspring.com
)and well within theoretical limits 1.metal melee wpn with enhanced power pack(doesnt have to be powerful and can be one charge item) that gives energy pulse on frequency/amp? that gives grand mall seizure when hits nervous system(we are talking micro voltage for humans)
.This could be used with higher tech stun guns and batons to explain better effects.Squirt gun stunners using water(think super soaker)as carrier for electrical charge could also be used.additionally item could have 2 effects grand mall and short circuit(emp) for those pesky robots with lasers that give everyone fits.This idea comes from an antho by DEan Ing:firefight 2000 I believe,THey also postulated radio frequency grenades that had the same effects on humans but i figure stun/squirt gun contact would be more plausible(easier to do)
.It was very similar to Jedi fighting normals with lightsaber(cuts arm off and sword in half,cuts hand off and goes 16inches into torso etc.).Exotic knife exotic milling,I made it cr 200,000 for a rich merchant, very intimidating.Oh i almost forgot sten had it hidden in his arm under skin and muscle when a certain nerve was used it dropped into his hand.Ihope these ideas give u guys some grist to chew on id also like to hear how it would work in T20.
New to Travller. But I think every one has missed two ideas behind the cutlass.
1. A cutlass without a bellguard is a machette. So the guy that swings the cutlass for a work out is going to be able to cut his way thru thick underbrush much faster.
2. Low tech peace keeping missions. A gun is not a scary thought if you have no knowledge of what it can do. But a trained swordsmen with a sword that is a type of force that can be seen and respected.
1. A cutlass without a bellguard is a machette. So the guy that swings the cutlass for a work out is going to be able to cut his way thru thick underbrush much faster.
2. Low tech peace keeping missions. A gun is not a scary thought if you have no knowledge of what it can do. But a trained swordsmen with a sword that is a type of force that can be seen and respected.
marginaleye
SOC-12
The problem with biochemical non-lethal weapons (whether inhaled, absorbed through the skin, or introduced directly into the bloodstream) is that (a) they don't work instantly, and (b) it's fairly easy to protect yourself, with ordinary pressure suits, any form of "sealed" armor (combat armor and powered battle-dress), or the combat environmental suit. Don't starships routinely depressurize before battle? If so, everyone is already going to be in pressure suits, long before any boarding actions take place (and even if the vessel to be boarded hasn't depressurized, sensible spacefarers will be wearing pressure suits anyway, in case of hull breaches, and can slam their visors down quickly).
Some sort of "neural scrambler," however, seems plausible given Imperial technology -- if you've got artifical psi-shielding, and you've got nuclear dampers and meson screens, a widget that can cause (a) sleepiness, confusion, dizziness, and disorientation, (b) intensely painful headaches, hallucinations, muscular spasms, seizures, and paralysis, (c) unconsciousness, or (d) permanent brain damage or even death (depending upon how it's "tuned," how much power is used, and how much exposure the target gets) seems plausible. At "high power" it might have nasty effects on computers, too -- especially relatively delicate, high-tech, non-fiber-optic ones.
Of course, this kind of device would have to have limitations, if only to keep things interesting -- substantial amounts of metal (like starship bulkheads) might provide "passive" shielding, and special circuitry to "actively" provide limited protection could be built into helmets -- but "neural scramblers" would still be very useful against low-tech and ill-prepared adversaries...
Some sort of "neural scrambler," however, seems plausible given Imperial technology -- if you've got artifical psi-shielding, and you've got nuclear dampers and meson screens, a widget that can cause (a) sleepiness, confusion, dizziness, and disorientation, (b) intensely painful headaches, hallucinations, muscular spasms, seizures, and paralysis, (c) unconsciousness, or (d) permanent brain damage or even death (depending upon how it's "tuned," how much power is used, and how much exposure the target gets) seems plausible. At "high power" it might have nasty effects on computers, too -- especially relatively delicate, high-tech, non-fiber-optic ones.
Of course, this kind of device would have to have limitations, if only to keep things interesting -- substantial amounts of metal (like starship bulkheads) might provide "passive" shielding, and special circuitry to "actively" provide limited protection could be built into helmets -- but "neural scramblers" would still be very useful against low-tech and ill-prepared adversaries...
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
That twigged a represed memory. I don't recall if it was something I worked up, or if it was from some published work, or a little of each. It might have been in a MegaTraveller adventure. Anyway, somewhere in my mess is a neural rifle, either Ancient tech or cutting edge experimental design. If I can find it I'll throw it out here somewhere, unless it is published material then I'll provide the source unless someone else remembers it and cites it first.
Secrect Cow Level
SOC-12
Neural Rifles are described in MEGATRAVELLER. They are Tech Level 16 weapons.
marginaleye
SOC-12
Hrm...
Well, if the "neural rifle" is available at Tech Level 16, then bulkier, less convenient precursor versions ought to be around by, oh, Tech Level 14 or so (the kind of thing that could be mounted underneath a g-carrier, for riot-control duty), and awkward but man-portable versions (either tripod-mounted, or restricted to those wearing powered armor) showing up at Tech Level 15.
Another idea...
Suppose metal blocks the disorienting/incapacitating field generated by the "neural scrambler." Greatly increasing the power might be enough to overcome this kind of "passive shielding." Picture a really huge neural scrambler, mounted in a starship's turret. As soon as a target vessel is disabled, such a turret-mounted scrambler could be brought to bear, incapacitating everyone in selected "superficial" compartments (adjacent to the outer hull itself), thus making it easier for boarders to seize airlocks and start "working their way in."
Pirates would love turret-mounted neural scramblers... I see them being very illegal.
Well, if the "neural rifle" is available at Tech Level 16, then bulkier, less convenient precursor versions ought to be around by, oh, Tech Level 14 or so (the kind of thing that could be mounted underneath a g-carrier, for riot-control duty), and awkward but man-portable versions (either tripod-mounted, or restricted to those wearing powered armor) showing up at Tech Level 15.
Another idea...
Suppose metal blocks the disorienting/incapacitating field generated by the "neural scrambler." Greatly increasing the power might be enough to overcome this kind of "passive shielding." Picture a really huge neural scrambler, mounted in a starship's turret. As soon as a target vessel is disabled, such a turret-mounted scrambler could be brought to bear, incapacitating everyone in selected "superficial" compartments (adjacent to the outer hull itself), thus making it easier for boarders to seize airlocks and start "working their way in."
Pirates would love turret-mounted neural scramblers... I see them being very illegal.
OTOH close-in fighting does still tend to devolve into an unorganised melee, and possession of melee weapon skills remains a very valuable asset for the modern soldier.
Unfortunately, this doesn't justify the use/equipping of cutlasses, which require several feet of clear space to use. Knives, bayonets, and clubs are much more likely - I saw an exhibition of WW1 infantry clubs at the Imperial War Musuem in London recently, scary things - most soldiers of course will resort to using their rifle as a club, which may be a problem with delicate high-tech weapons.
The US Marines' favoured shipboard weapon, the Remington pump-action shotgun, is a nice heavy bit of metal to whack someone with in an emergency and is less likely to break than a semi-auto. I guess if the Imperial marines' gauss or laser rifles cannot be effectively used as melee weapons (eg too fragile to use with a bayonet), that would sort-of justify the cutlass training, although a nice monofilament-bladed dagger would be better for the close-in stuff.
OTOH close-in fighting does still tend to devolve into an unorganised melee, and possession of melee weapon skills remains a very valuable asset for the modern soldier.
Unfortunately, this doesn't justify the use/equipping of cutlasses, which require several feet of clear space to use. Knives, bayonets, and clubs are much more likely - I saw an exhibition of WW1 infantry clubs at the Imperial War Musuem in London recently, scary things - most soldiers of course will resort to using their rifle as a club, which may be a problem with delicate high-tech weapons.
The US Marines' favoured shipboard weapon, the Remington pump-action shotgun, is a nice heavy bit of metal to whack someone with in an emergency and is less likely to break than a semi-auto. I guess if the Imperial marines' gauss or laser rifles cannot be effectively used as melee weapons (eg too fragile to use with a bayonet), that would sort-of justify the cutlass training, although a nice monofilament-bladed dagger would be better for the close-in stuff. </font>[/QUOTE]Don't forget a cutlass has a point. You can use it in a narrow space, it just takes more skill. It's fencing, not beating a carpet.
Now, having said that, I'm personally fond of a restractable crystiron spike mounted on the forearm of battledress or combat armor.
I would think its easier to build a cybernetic fuse system into your nervous system, say... just below your head at the top of the spinal column that would prevent detrimental effects of the contact weapon type,and of course body hits are more likely than head hits anyway,and it would be available at lower tech levels 10 or higher? .I pesonally dont like the helmet idea except against neural rifles,sounds too magical for me.I understand the microvoltage contact frequency effects better(I had a closed head injury in 1986 )and am willing to allow the neural rifle because its TL-16 and "magical" and would allow a "magical" defense
)and am willing to allow the neural rifle because its TL-16 and "magical" and would allow a "magical" defense