What works? How are ships and vehicles armed?

[mike wightman]

My recollection is that the Imperium wasn't considered TL15 until just after the Solomani Rim War, so about year 1000. That makes the 4th Frontier War the Imperium's first at TL15, and it wasn't much of a war. The 5th Frontier War was the first major war with TL15 gear, so it's after that that you'd expect to doctrine from real experience and ships to fit that doctrine (both tactical and strategic) come into service - just in time for the Imperials to use them on each other.

The civilian Imperium wasn't TL15 until the 1000s, but the military had been building at TL15 since the 700s according to Agent of the Imperium. Likely not entire fleets since the IN was still broadly TL14 for the Rim War, but jump 6 couriers were certainly in use. perhaps jump 6 came earlier than TL15 fusion power.

 

[mike wightman]

So my assumption about the TL15 start was based on what my GM had told me, but it seems that that was an IMTU thing. https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Technology_Level says that TL15 begins around 1105, so I suppose that makes TL15 fairly new in 1110, and the first of the newly planned TL15 ships coming out of shipyards.

Someone has a typo in there it should be 1005, the 1105 is the start date for the golden age adventures.

That's a big change in my expectations: In 1110, all the TL15 capital warships were what people thought would be useful, with such lessons as could be rolled in from the 5FW, but the lessons learned there would not be fully digested in time to become part of common designs. If TL15 ships are mainly designed based on plans of what seemed like a good idea at the time, the number of designs that are less than ideal is a lot more reasonable.

S:9 has TL15 first generation ships like the Ar
tlantic being phased out in place of new models, the wiki entry is wrong. or it could be refering to the Solomani achievement of TL15... elsewhere in tha article it mentions the Imperial TL16 worlds 3 in 1105 and by 1121 the number is much higher.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Someone has a typo in there it should be 1005, the 1105 is the start date for the golden age adventures.

It's not where the TL started or were achieved, it's just where you are at that time.
The Imperium in 1105 is generally TL-15, which is correct.

Just as TL-16 corresponds to play in 1850 and TL-17 to the Galaxiad in 1902. Those TLs were presumably achieved earlier, but characterises play in those eras.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The problem is you need -all- those things to mitigate the crit because you can't guess which one you're going to get, it's almost easier to push it up to 20,000T to avoid the crit.

To illustrate:

BR-K106K93-F49900-230N9-0      MCr 9 300      10 000 Dton
bearing     L     99 11                          Crew=152
batteries   L     99 11                             TL=15
                    Cargo=189 Fuel=1900 EP=1900 Agility=6

Spoiler:

Dual Occupancy                                      190    11 625
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             K         10 000         
Configuration       Needle/Wedge       1                    1 200
Scoops              Streamlined                                10
Armour              15                 F          1 600     2 880
                                                                
Manoeuvre D                            6    1     1 700       850
Power Plant                           19    1     1 900     5 700
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-0, 4 weeks                  1 900         
Purifier                                    1        29         0
                                                                
Bridge                                      1       200        50
Computer            m/9                9    1        13       140
                                                                
Staterooms                                  4        16         2
Staterooms, Half                          148       296        37
                                                                
Cargo                                               190         
                                                                
Spinal              Meson N            N    1     2 000       600
Bay                 Missile, 50 t      9    1        50        13
Single Turret       Pulse              2    9         9         5
Single Turret       Plasma             3    9        18        14
Triple Turret       Sand               4   20        20        15
                                                                
Nuclear Damper                         9    1        20        50
Meson Screen                           9    1        40        60
                                                                
Nominal Cost        MCr 11 624,79        Sum:       190    11 625
Class Cost          MCr  2 441,21       Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr  9 299,83                               
                                                                
                                                                
Crew &               High     0        Crew          Bridge    11
Passengers            Mid     0         152       Engineers    36
                      Low     0                     Gunners    74
                 Extra SR     0      Frozen         Service    31
               # Frozen W     0           0          Flight     0
                  Marines     0                     Marines     0

With spare computer, screens, and a frozen watch:

BR-K106K93-F49900-230N9-0      MCr 9 500      10 000 Dton
bearing     L     99 11                          Crew=152
batteries   L     99 11                             TL=15
             Low=16 Cargo=108 Fuel=1900 EP=1900 Agility=6

Spoiler:

Dual Occupancy                                      109    11 876
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             K         10 000         
Configuration       Needle/Wedge       1                    1 200
Scoops              Streamlined                                10
Armour              15                 F          1 600     2 880
                                                                
Manoeuvre D                            6    1     1 700       850
Power Plant                           19    1     1 900     5 700
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-0, 4 weeks                  1 900         
Purifier                                    1        29         0
                                                                
Bridge                                      1       200        50
Computer            m/9                9    2        26       280
                                                                
Staterooms                                  4        16         2
Staterooms, Half                          148       296        37
Low Berths                                 16         8         1
                                                                
Cargo                                               109         
                                                                
Spinal              Meson N            N    1     2 000       600
Bay                 Missile, 50 t      9    1        50        13
Single Turret       Pulse              2    9         9         5
Single Turret       Plasma             3    9        18        14
Triple Turret       Sand               4   20        20        15
                                                                
Nuclear Damper                         9    2        40       100
Meson Screen                           9    2        80       120
                                                                
Nominal Cost        MCr 11 875,59        Sum:       109    11 876
Class Cost          MCr  2 493,87       Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr  9 500,47                               
                                                                
                                                                
Crew &               High     0        Crew          Bridge    11
Passengers            Mid     0         152       Engineers    36
                      Low     0                     Gunners    74
                 Extra SR     0      Frozen         Service    31
               # Frozen W     1          16          Flight     0
                  Marines     0                     Marines     0

A little bit more expensive, but with a 1/3 chance of mission kill (instead of 2/3) from the size crit of a PA-T.

 

[Badenov]

It illustrates the point: If a ship is twice as expensive, it has to be four times as good.

Yep, that is a way I now understand.

Try TL-12 and choose between Mes-B and Mes-C...

It almost seems, at TL12, like Mesons are a coup de grace for the ships floating helplessly that have had 10 Fuel hits from missiles and don't have their Screens powered. Meson C rolls 3 damage rolls per hit, when it does hit, which is better than nothing. B Meson penetrates a Meson Screen 1 on 9+, C Meson on 8+. As I say, I haven't looked hard at TL12. That's another hole I need to dig into once I've got TL15 straight.

A Repulsor deflects one missile attack, that would probably have been deflected by the Damper anyway. That isn't wort it.
A single repulsor bay absorbs nine weapon damage, thereby protecting the spinal (a little).

It took me a minute to understand this, but I concur.

Sure, but how many PA spinals does the enemy have? The main theme at TL-15 is the meson, because PA spinals can be stopped completely by high-armour rocks.

This is the rock-paper-scissors game again. If your opponent stacks PA spinals, you stack armored rocks. I think I see how this goes.

It's less than 100 Dt for an extra computer, spare screens, and a frozen watch. Just do the cheap stuff. That alone halves the chance of mission kill from a single crit.

Bumping the ship tonnage up 100 tons doesn't add 100 tons of usable space, but I take the point. Small things that add survivability. I already had a Frozen Watch, adding the other bits will back them up. But I think that it's easier to keep the small mesons in the back line until the big PA T's have been degraded by weapon-1 hits.

And those PA-T will lurk in the reserve until they have a worthwhile target, a meson rider...
The battle tactics are another paper-rock-scissors game.

Well, they'll mostly be shooting at each other, degrading the enemy PA T's down to where the mesons at least don't take autocrits.

At four times the tonnage and probably trice the price, you get a lot more 10 kDt conventional Mes-N riders for your budget. Three 10 kDt riders beat one 40 kDt rock, without working up a sweat.

Concur.

At 9+ (10/36) the rock is much easier to hit than the smaller conventional rider at 10+ (6/36), with about the same penetration chance.
Three conventional riders produce ~0.35 hits per round, the single rock produces ~0.09 hits per round.



I calculate how many percent of the enemy fleet you destroy every round. If I destroy 5% of the enemy fleet, and the enemy destroy 10% of my fleet, I lose.

Take 100 Mes-N rocks (40 kDt) vs. 200 small Mes-J rocks (18 kDt).
100 Mes-N: 100 × 6/36 × 21/36 × 26/36 ≈ 7 hits, killing 7/200 ≈ 3.5% of the enemy fleet.
200 Mes-J: 200 × 6/36 × 15/36 × 21/36 ≈ 8 hits, killing 8/100 ≈ 8% of the enemy fleet.

8% is better than 3.5%, so the small rocks win (eventually).

Concur.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

This is the rock-paper-scissors game again. If your opponent stacks PA spinals, you stack armored rocks. I think I see how this goes.

Indeed.

But I think that it's easier to keep the small mesons in the back line until the big PA T's have been degraded by weapon-1 hits.

Like everything else, that can be countered...

A few of these will neutralise the enemy PA spinals:

BM-H9067J2-L09000-00009-0      MCr 4 044       8 000 Dton
bearing               8                           Crew=78
batteries             8                             TL=15
                      Cargo=568 Fuel=636 EP=636 Agility=6

Spoiler:

Dual Occupancy                                      568     5 055
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Unstreamlined Custom             H          8 000        
Configuration       Buffered Plane     9          2 800         6
Armour              20                 L          1 200     2 040
                                                               
Manoeuvre D                            6    1     1 360       680
Power Plant                            7    1       636     1 908
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-0, 4 weeks                    636        
Purifier                                    1        10         0
                                                               
Bridge                                      1       160        40
Computer            m/9fib             J    1        26       200
                                                               
Staterooms                                  4        16         2
Staterooms, Half                           74       148        19
                                                               
Cargo                                               568        
                                                               
Bay                 Missile, 50 t      9    8       400       100
                                                               
Meson Screen                           9    1        40        60
                                                               
Nominal Cost        MCr 5 054,60         Sum:       568     5 055
Class Cost          MCr 1 061,47        Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 4 043,68                                
                                                               
                                                               
Crew &               High     0        Crew          Bridge    11
Passengers            Mid     0          78       Engineers    20
                      Low     0                     Gunners    22
                 Extra SR     0      Frozen         Service    25
               # Frozen W     0           0          Flight     0
                  Marines     0                     Marines     0

Sized to be immune to size crits and enough armour to be immune to regular hits from PA spinals...
Only meson spinals will kill them, and as usual they are not trivial targets.

 

[whartung]

That's because the authors themselves can't figure out viable naval doctrine.

High Guard is not enough to develop a Naval Doctrine, as it ties to things beyond simple capability.

 

[Spinward Flow]

The frontier screens are ships. The main battle-fleets are riders. That is the story at least...

In a big picture way, it makes sense.

Any sort of "crust defense" against an invasion isn't necessarily going to have intel available (in advance) of enemy fleet movements and numbers, so the "crust defense" needs to have an option for rapid retreat to prevent them from getting overwhelmed by invading forces.

Conversely, any reserve forces that are making their way to the front lines AFTER contact has been made will have a LOT more intel on enemy fleet movements and numbers available to it, so they will be better able to "throw the tip of the spear" in ways and at locations that are favorable to BatRon Rider overmatch. Riders are more devastating when you know in advance that your Riders can overwhelm their opposition ... but Riders are at a disadvantage of being routed (and destroyed in detail) of the Riders are themselves overwhelmed, due to their lack of retreat options. Therefore, the tipping point of advantage/disadvantage becomes intelligence (know your enemy/know yourself) and orchestrating engagements that are most advantageous for your BatRon Riders to excel in.



I've been rewatching Goblin Slayer (anime) and one of his quotable lines seems all too apt for this point of discussion.

"Imagination is a weapon. Those who lack it are the first to die."

- Goblin Slayer​

Sometimes, fictional characters can say things that are just a little TOO on the nose ...

 

[kilemall]

High Guard is not enough to develop a Naval Doctrine, as it ties to things beyond simple capability.

TCS then.

 

[mike wightman]

Still not enough, HG lacks rules for tactical combat for example, TCS lacks necessary logistical rules.

 

[Rupert]

The civilian Imperium wasn't TL15 until the 1000s, but the military had been building at TL15 since the 700s according to Agent of the Imperium. Likely not entire fleets since the IN was still broadly TL14 for the Rim War, but jump 6 couriers were certainly in use. perhaps jump 6 came earlier than TL15 fusion power.

Agent of the Imperium, is an interesting novel, and one thing it shows is that Marc is quite happy to retcon the crap out of the 3I setting. As is his right, of course, but it does rather upset quite a lot of previous 'canon'.

 

[Condottiere]

Barthes' essay argues against traditional literary criticism's practice of relying on the intentions and biography of an author to definitively explain the "ultimate meaning" of a text. Instead, the essay emphasizes the primacy of each individual reader's interpretation of the work over any "definitive" meaning intended by the author, a process in which subtle or unnoticed characteristics may be drawn out for new insight.

 

[Rupert]

One other thing to remember is that all these ships have been pure combat vessels. Actual navies, both real wet navy and Traveller's fictional ones, need ships that can do things other than just fight major fleet actions. It gets very expensive if the fleet vessels are incapable of anything else, because you then need a whole other fleet.

So while the major ships might be 'pure fleet' ships, the secondary ones probably won't be, because they'll be used as 'cruisers' in peacetime, patrolling, showing the flag, and all that stuff. This requires capabilities that generally conflict with optimal combat performance, such as ship's troops, significant boats to carry them, large cargo bays for stores and parts for long deployments away from decent bases, and so on.

Even for fleet ships, there are things that are detrimental to raw combat capability, but which will be needed - one or some ships will need facilities for admirals and command staff, for example. This is basically ignorable for a 200 KDTon monster with a few thousand crew, but for 10-40 KDTon ships accommodation, meeting rooms, and workstations for a dozen or so people is not insignificant.

 

[mike wightman]

Having magic everlasting missiles sure makes logistics easier.

Something blatantly obvious that the US Navy is only now learning.

It is all well and good having a VLS system that can shoot down thirty drones and cruise missiles, but having to make a 1000 mile round trip to rearm is not going to win a conflict.

 

[Badenov]

Having magic everlasting missiles sure makes logistics easier.

Something blatantly obvious that the US Navy is only now learning.

It is all well and good having a VLS system that can shoot down thirty drones and cruise missiles, but having to make a 1000 mile round trip to rearm is not going to win a conflict.

That's what logistics ships are supposed to be for. Did the Navy forget about them?

 

[mike wightman]

They can't reload the VLS at sea as yet.

 

[Badenov]

They can't reload the VLS at sea as yet.

They just worked that out. https://www.navy.mil/Press-Office/N...t-sea-reloading-of-vertical-launching-system/

 

[mike wightman]

Which is why I said they are only just now learning, This should have been done decades ago. Now they just need to build a lot more capacity to do this.

Back to High Guard.

One of the glaring rule omissions is a limit on how many missile salvos. There are rules for turret missiles buried in SS:3, but as the HG80 rules are at present they have an infinite supply of missiles. Worse they can have an infinite supply of nuclear missiles.

 

[Badenov]

Which is why I said they are only just now learning, This should have been done decades ago. Now they just need to build a lot more capacity to do this.

Back to High Guard.

One of the glaring rule omissions is a limit on how many missile salvos. There are rules for turret missiles buried in SS:3, but as the HG80 rules are at present they have an infinite supply of missiles. Worse they can have an infinite supply of nuclear missiles.

Yeah, totally not practical. In MgT1, missile ammo is a thing, and it gets heavy quickly at 12 missiles per ton, which is just over 1m^3/83kg. It makes me wonder if missiles in HG80 were supposed to be very small and that's why they're negligible tonnage?

 

[mike wightman]

CT turret missiles are 50kg

They are about the same size as the AGM-114, rated in Striker they have 15cm warheads while bay missiles are much bigger having a 25cm warhead but we don't know their mass.

I was thinking about all of this last night after watching this: