What works? How are ships and vehicles armed?

[Spinward Flow]

story sim not milsim

Story simulation
Military simulation

 

[mike wightman]

So it takes 1000 seconds to take a game turn in LBB2, which is 16.66 minutes. LBB5 rounds thus up to 20 minutes (but then ignores the reloading thing). So does the extra 3+ minutes get you free reloading? Does it include the gunner running down to the magazine and humping a 50kg missile into the launcher?

The gunner can reload the missile racks from the turret 12 stock the same turn he launches, so until those 12 are exhausted there is no need to go running to the non-existent missile magazine.
A crew member with nothing to do for 1000 seconds can get the job of carrying missiles from storage to the turret.

 

[mike wightman]

Turret missiles are 50 kg and 15 cm diameter, and undefined total size.
Bay missiles are 25 cm diameter and otherwise undefined.


The turret missile is roughly as large as a '70s AAM, say a Sidewinder. That would be a volume of 0.04 m³ or perhaps 100-200 per 14 m³ = 1 Dt with some packaging.

The Sidwinder is 1.5 times the mass of a Traveller turret missile, the Hellfire really is the closets equivalent at 49 kg.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The Sidwinder is 1.5 times the mass of a Traveller turret missile, the Hellfire really is the closets equivalent at 49 kg.

The Hellfire wasn't around in the 70's, but ok, it's much closer in mass. Still about 0.04 m³ volume.

The AIM-4 is about the right mass and an AAM, with a volume of, you guessed it, 0.04 m³...

 

[Badenov]

The gunner can reload the missile racks from the turret 12 stock the same turn he launches, so until those 12 are exhausted there is no need to go running to the non-existent missile magazine.

I'm suggesting the crew member can take the extra 3 minutes to top off the turret so the 12 never runs down.

A crew member with nothing to do for 1000 seconds can get the job of carrying missiles from storage to the turret.

So I've got tons of Service crew with no defined role in combat, let's put them to work.

The Sidwinder is 1.5 times the mass of a Traveller turret missile, the Hellfire really is the closets equivalent at 49 kg.

According to wikipedia, the Hellfire missile was 1.6m long so if the packaging is 0.5m by 0.5m, it's .4m^3 and 12 take 4.8m^3. I imagine the remainder of the 14m^3 is autoloading equipment (or space to move around in, for civilians) and safe storage requirements, since there's no mechanic for magazine explosion. The sidewinders are 3m long, so 9m^3 for 12, so they'd still fit, if a bit more snugly.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I'm suggesting the crew member can take the extra 3 minutes to top off the turret so the 12 never runs down.

More likely the "gunners" are actually loaders, with the missiles being fired by central fire control.

 

[Badenov]

More likely the "gunners" are actually loaders, with the missiles being fired by central fire control.

But if that were the case, being busy with reloading wouldn't prevent you from firing? If firing's not your job? In any event, a rating 6 missile system is 10 turrets with 30 launchers. So, with 1 gunner, there's no way to reload them all in any sort of reasonable time so you need to tap the service crew for that. And it's the gunner's gunner skill that affects the to-hit roll, right? Central fire control just picks the targets.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

But if that were the case, being busy with reloading wouldn't prevent you from firing?

By reading the LBB2 loading rule creatively, we could have a "gunner" in the turret continuously reloading the turret, and someone else firing the missiles.

Central fire control just picks the targets.

Central fire control would be the 1 gunner for the battery.

But that is for ships >1000 Dt, smaller ships use LBB2 crewing and one gunner per turret.

 

[Badenov]

By reading the LBB2 loading rule creatively, we could have a "gunner" in the turret continuously reloading the turret, and someone else firing the missiles.

Well, by that metric, we could have a gunner doing the gunning, and a loader loading the turret. We could add a stoker to shovel liquid hydrogen into the reactor and rowers to make the ship go. There's no end to what we can do.

Central fire control would be the 1 gunner for the battery.

But that is for ships >1000 Dt, smaller ships use LBB2 crewing and one gunner per turret.

What happens if you attack a LBB2 ship with an LBB5 ship?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

What happens if you attack a LBB2 ship with an LBB5 ship?

The design system doesn't really matter, does it?

The combat system does...
With LBB5 combat ammo usage is below the level of abstraction, whether the ship was designed with LBB2 or LBB5.
With LBB2 combat, I guess the LBB5 ships will have to dragon the stokers to reload the missile turrets.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Missile rack: 1 missile ready, 2 missiles ready for future turns
an additional 12 missiles stored in the turret.
Total - 15, 15 turns of launching missiles.

So, a 12-missile backup magazine (beyond the 3 loaded per installed launcher*) is the standard and declared to take no additional space.

Or is this describing a single turret with one missile launcher, and the remaining space (which in a double or triple turret would hold the other weapons) using that space instead for additional magazine space?


‐--------‐
* 1 in the chamber, 2 in the clip, so to speak

 

[Rupert]

Where do you see 12 reloads? Each turret has up to 2 reloads per launcher -- that's it before the gunner has to stop firing and spend one turn per launcher to load it's three missiles or sandcasters (this may take up to 3 turns...)* from a storage magazine that LBB2 does not describe at all. One can assume that missiles can be stored at no less than 9 per Td (1Td turrets hold 9 each, plus the launch mechanism, targeting systems, and the gunner's control couch -- simply storing the missiles without the turret overhead has to be higher density than that).

*Mind you, it might be quicker for a triple missile turret to just reload the launch tubes of a triple missile turret (3 missiles, firing after 1 turn reload delay) though that's not called out as an option. Neither is the possibility of either a gunner's mate to help with the reload task, or an autoloader -- and you'd think they'd have the latter by TL-9, but it's a game so...

But... that 1 DTon for a turret is for 'fire control'. So it's the gunner's couch, and a bunch of wiring and electronics, and presumably some of the machinery that points the turret. The turret proper is extra (something quietly ignored when it comes to calculating volume for jump).

 

[mike wightman]

So, a 12-missile backup magazine (beyond the 3 loaded per installed launcher*) is the standard and declared to take no additional space.

Or is this describing a single turret with one missile launcher, and the remaining space (which in a double or triple turret would hold the other weapons) using that space instead for additional magazine space?


‐--------‐
* 1 in the chamber, 2 in the clip, so to speak

I quoted the exact text, it is pretty clear, the turret contains an additional 12 missiles to the missiles in the launch racks.

 

[Grav_Moped]

I quoted the exact text, it is pretty clear, the turret contains an additional 12 missiles to the missiles in the launch racks.

So that IS an upgrade from the 3-shots-then-reload rule from LBB2. OK. But then, why does it matter that there are 2 in ready position when there are also 12 more in ready position -- (they should) just say that each launcher holds 15 missiles of which only 1 can be fired per turn.

 

[mike wightman]

Missile rack: 1 missile ready, 2 missiles ready for future turns
an additional 12 missiles stored in the turret.
Total - 15, 15 turns of launching missiles.
Double missile rack: 2 missiles ready to fire, 4 missiles ready for future turns
an additional 12 missiles stored in the turret.
Total - 18, 9 turns of launching missiles
Triple missile rack: 3 missiles ready to fire, 6 missiles ready for future turns
an additional 12 missiles stored in the turret.
Total - 21, 7 turns of launching missiles.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

But... that 1 DTon for a turret is for 'fire control'. So it's the gunner's couch, and a bunch of wiring and electronics, and presumably some of the machinery that points the turret. The turret proper is extra (something quietly ignored when it comes to calculating volume for jump).

Even worse, the gunner is presumed by LBB2 in the turret, e.g.:

LBB2'81, p38:
Gunner interact interfaces the expertise of the gunner in a specific turret to the hit probability of those lasers hitting the target. The expertise of the gunner becomes a positive DM to hit when using laser fire.

The 1 Dt fire control need not be anywhere near the turret itself.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Or is this describing a single turret with one missile launcher, and the remaining space (which in a double or triple turret would hold the other weapons) using that space instead for additional magazine space?

Answer provided in post #524 and reiterated in post #555.

 

[Badenov]

So, given that LBB2 ships use individual laser turrets and need an 8 to hit, and that a single laser in a turret in LBB5 is Rating 1 and also needs an 8 to hit, that seems to indicate a parity, but does the LBB2 turret get a bonus to hit above TL12 the way LBB5 does? Does jamming 3 lasers in a turret (another way to get Rating 2) give the same +1 to hit if they're all fired at the same target? If it's Beam Lasers, 3 in a turret is Rating 3, or 4 at TL13 and up. Does that make it +2 to hit in LBB2?

It looks like missiles in LBB2 hit automatically unless they were shot down?

Or all these things only applicable to military ships?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

So, given that LBB2 ships use individual laser turrets and need an 8 to hit, and that a single laser in a turret in LBB5 is Rating 1 and also needs an 8 to hit, that seems to indicate a parity, but does the LBB2 turret get a bonus to hit above TL12 the way LBB5 does? Does jamming 3 lasers in a turret (another way to get Rating 2) give the same +1 to hit if they're all fired at the same target? If it's Beam Lasers, 3 in a turret is Rating 3, or 4 at TL13 and up. Does that make it +2 to hit in LBB2?

No grouping or bonuses in LBB2. A triple turret gets three attacks (or six attacks with Double fire), potentially several times per round.

It looks like missiles in LBB2 hit automatically unless they were shot down?

They manoeuvre like ships, and if they get close enough to the target, they attack. If you muck up the vector movement, they miss.

 

[mike wightman]

So, given that LBB2 ships use individual laser turrets and need an 8 to hit, and that a single laser in a turret in LBB5 is Rating 1 and also needs an 8 to hit, that seems to indicate a parity, but does the LBB2 turret get a bonus to hit above TL12 the way LBB5 does?

No, there are no higher TL lasers in LBB:2. The lasers are all the equivalent of the HG TL7 laser weapons.

Does jamming 3 lasers in a turret (another way to get Rating 2) give the same +1 to hit if they're all fired at the same target? If it's Beam Lasers, 3 in a turret is Rating 3, or 4 at TL13 and up. Does that make it +2 to hit in LBB2?

No, each laser in a turret rolls to hit separately.

It looks like missiles in LBB2 hit automatically unless they were shot down?

They have to get within 100 mm

Or all these things only applicable to military ships?

There has never been a warships supplement for LBB:2

I've written one for personal use, but everyone will have their own versions and I really can not be bothered with the "feedback" some on this site would provide to warrant posting it.

Now that Mongoose is allowing CT TAS supplements someone will write one someday.

Spoiler:

My version so far has rules for:
Military grade engines
Armour
Nuclear dampers based on LBB:4
Plasma and fusion guns
PAWs
meson guns
repulsors
meson screens
black globes
heavy turrets
barbettes
10t, 50t, 100t bays
200t main weapon mount (similar to a spinal)
TL increases for weapons
EW - active sensors, passive sensors, jamming (based on T2300+T4 among others)
a simple way to record velocity from turn to turn
rules for missiles and sandcasters cribbed from a variety of sources
additional guidelines for crew member actions during combat