What's an Imperial baronial title worth?

[rancke]

Well, a Baron isn't as high in the Noble hierarchy as a Duke and a Duke owns a world, so it's really probably only worth the fief of land that the Baron would be entitled to. Maybe a continent or a small moon or asteroid - how much is that worth? And it also depends on what is on that land - orchards, gold, radioactives, The Spice!, an animal preserve, a prison, lanthanum mines, a great city, farmland?

Dukes do not own worlds, at least not in their capacity of duke (Archdukes do get en entire world for a fief).

But there's also the leadership/respect/political aspect of the title. It's not something you can put a price on, I think.

Sure you can. You put it up for auction and whatever the final bid is is the price.

Joking aside, what I'm asking for is opinions about the sort of sum that would sound reasonable to people. If you were reading an adventure that said that the PCs could expect to get X CrImps for it, what sort of sum would you consider too low to be plausible and what sort of sum would be too high to be plausible?

Money? How many starships can you bring to bear to protect it might be the more accurate number you're looking for.

No, the number I'm looking for is money.

I don't think you can come up with a definitive price. It could be almost worthless to once person and priceless to another. Too many variables.

Um... if something has a certain value to one person, it has more or less the same value to anyone who would be able to resell it to that person.

A little more background on what fief the Barony entitles would give you a better picture.

As I've already said:

The title is an honor title, not a high title. The recipient gets a vote in the Moot and access to Imperial noble society, that's all.

Hans

 

[far-trader]

A quick google found that Scottish feudal baronies are sometimes bought and sold. Might be close to what you're looking for:

(from http://lawiki.org/lawwiki/The_titles_game:_can_you_buy_nobility%3F)

... Scottish 'baronies by tenure' are probably genuine titles of nobility. If they are, then they are the only real UK titles of nobility that are capable of being bought and sold. Unlike English noble titles, Scottish baronies by tenure can pass with the land to which they are attached, rather than by personal descent.

...In short, an English barony is a peerage, a Scottish barony is not, but might be a noble title of less than peerage rank.

...If Mr Bloggs can obtain a genuine Scottish barony, then he probably gets the right to call himself 'Fred Bloggs, Baron of Someplace'. This right, if it exists at all, is inheritable along with the Caput, or property, of the barony. Baronies are invariably associated with land, usually a few acres accompanied by a crumbling castle.

Because Scottish baronies might be genuine titles of nobility, they are highly sought after and not easy to obtain. Typically about a dozen baronies change hands every year. The sales are not well publicized, and large sums of money are involved. You can expect to pay a minimum of £40,000, although I understand that one sale has recently been agreed at £1M.

...so there you have your possible answer. Convert the value to Imperial Credits

I might make the players do the actual return of said item to be awarded the title and THEN be able to sell the title...

Baron Juan Abii examines the purported Keramish globe the players are offering... "How do I know this is genuine? The only experts and sure tests are all at Capital in the employ of the Emperor. This could be an elaborate fake, some copy for a collector, or a duplicate for display purposes that you have found. I'm not accusing you of anything but I'm not interested in buying it without proof. Here's what I'll do. I have an old Yacht I don't much use anymore, my crew will take you in comfort and style to Capital and you can present the globe to the Emperor yourselves. If it proves genuine he will award you with the Barony. My Captain will then be empowered to purchase the transfer of the title for our agreed upon sum."

 

[rancke]

A quick google found that Scottish feudal baronies are sometimes bought and sold. Might be close to what you're looking for:

Scottish bronies are not quite in the same class as Imperial baronies. Now, if you could provide historical examples of honorary emperorships being sold, that might have been useful.

I might make the players do the actual return of said item to be awarded the title and THEN be able to sell the title...

While I can think of no canon that says that Imperial titles cannot be bought and sold, I don't like the idea. Besides, if that was possible, multi-billionaires would just by them directly, bypassing the whole matter of the Keramish globe.

Also, even if following the outlined procedure, it still doesn't tell me how much you think the PCs would be able to sell the title for once they got it.


Hans

 

[far-trader]

Scottish bronies are not quite in the same class as Imperial baronies.

Well no, you'd have to apply a multiplier dependent on what you feel the relative rarity is for you TU.

Now, if you could provide historical examples of honorary emperorships being sold, that might have been useful.

lol

While I can think of no canon that says that Imperial titles cannot be bought and sold, I don't like the idea. Besides, if that was possible, multi-billionaires would just by them directly, bypassing the whole matter of the Keramish globe.

Not at all. It's a limited product (how limited again depends on your TU) and the only ones that would be for sale would be a small fraction of that. It would be rare (how rare again v YTU) for one of the established Baronies to come up for sale. The globe return is the McGuffin for creating a new Barony isn't it? That was my understanding anyway. And a less fully endowed Barony at that (more a Baronet maybe?) so I see no worries about selling it on. The Imperium is pro-Commerce in a BIG (aka MEGA-CORP) way.

Also, even if following the outlined procedure, it still doesn't tell me how much you think the PCs would be able to sell the title for once they got it.

Sure I did Between £40,000 and £1M, adjusted to Cr and factored by YTU variables I don't know.

I also hinted at the possible upper end in my little in-character bit (for my TU anyway)

Frankly I can't see the globe being verified or verifiable, with certainty, until it is examined by experts I see only being on Captial. And until that is done there is no title to sell. If the players want to sell the globe before that they'll get only a small fraction of its possible value as a very risky investment on the part of Juan Abii. No more than 10% of its determined value imo. Possibly far less.

 

[Spinward Scout]

Dukes do not own worlds, at least not in their capacity of duke (Archdukes do get en entire world for a fief).

I thought an ArchDuke gets an entire Domain as a fief. Norris is also the Duke of Regina. Isn't Regina his fief for his Dukedom?

Sure you can. You put it up for auction and whatever the final bid is is the price.

Joking aside, what I'm asking for is opinions about the sort of sum that would sound reasonable to people. If you were reading an adventure that said that the PCs could expect to get X CrImps for it, what sort of sum would you consider too low to be plausible and what sort of sum would be too high to be plausible?

Without a fief, there's no real value to base it on, tho.

How much does a vote in the Moot cost these days? To be able to possibly have an effect on the entire Imperium? Imperial lobbyists would be all over it to expand whichever pet project they are working on. Corps and MegaCorps might want it to have some pull to expand their operations.

A Pirate or Interstellar Mobster would want it just to be able to go 'legit'. And might kill to get someone else who wants it 'out of the way'.

It all depends on who's competing for it IYTU. Any number I could come up with would really be meaningless without factoring that in.

I'd also wager 37 Quatloos that if I said 10,000Cr or if I said 10,000MCr, you'd disagree with me, because you already have an approximate price in your head that you'd think it should be.

But auctions can severely ramp up the price. Have you ever heard the phrase: 'that person has too much money and not enough sense?' Factor in a slightly insane Pirate or Corporate opportunist that wants to outbid everyone else and the price could skyrocket and end up thousands of times higher than you'd expect.

Other than all that, you're talking about someone being granted the title of 'celebrity with some political pull' for all intents and purposes, if there's no fief. What's that worth?

32.754MCr - that's my number and I'm sticking to it.

As I've already said:

Sorry, missed that part.

 

[rancke]

I thought an ArchDuke gets an entire Domain as a fief. Norris is also the Duke of Regina. Isn't Regina his fief for his Dukedom?

[Warning: The following is my interpretation of the available information; not everyone agree with me.]

Despite canonical statements about the Imperium being a feudal structure, it is not described as one. At most it's an autocracy with pseudo-feudal trappings. Dukes are more like royal governors of historical European empires, appointed by the Emperor to run a duchy (~province) for him. They're hereditary governors, but the territories they rule (i.e. the member worlds in the duchy) do not belong to the emperor, so they are not his to hand out to vassals. High nobles below the rank of duke are associated with member worlds, but they are not appointed by the emperor to rule them. Some times the hereditary ruler of a world gets appointed high noble of that world, but it's two different positions. Delphine of Mora, for example is Duchess of Mora because she is the hereditary Matriarch of Mora, not the other way around.

Norris, to take another example, is both Duke of (The Duchy of) Regina and Marquis of Regina system, but he does not rule Regina in either capacity; that's done by a civil service bureaucracy supervised by four citizens elected by lot every year.

Any noble who manages to buy an entire world is likely to be appointed as that world's high noble, as Leonard of Aramis is also Baron of Lewis because he owns (most of) Lewis.

Now, the Imperium do own some bits and pieces on various member worlds and also have title to some entire worlds. Hence the Emperor has worlds and continents and lesser estates to hand out as personal fiefs to his high nobles. Archdukes get a whole world each; lesser high nobles get lesser estates.

It all depends on who's competing for it IYTU. Any number I could come up with would really be meaningless without factoring that in.

Unless I specifcally says otherwise, I always talk about the OTU, not MTU.

I'd also wager 37 Quatloos that if I said 10,000Cr or if I said 10,000MCr, you'd disagree with me, because you already have an approximate price in your head that you'd think it should be.

You'd lose that bet. I'm trying to reach a consensus.

EDIT: Cr10,000 is far too low and MCr10,000 sounds far too much.

But auctions can severely ramp up the price. Have you ever heard the phrase: 'that person has too much money and not enough sense?' Factor in a slightly insane Pirate or Corporate opportunist that wants to outbid everyone else and the price could skyrocket and end up thousands of times higher than you'd expect.

Sure, but what do you want me to do? About eight or nine out of ten responses did not address my original question. Some of what was said was useful or interesting or thoughtprovoking, so I'm not complaining. But it didn't answer my question. So I've tried a couple of times to steer the discussion into channels that would provide the answers I'm trying to get. So far it has been like herding cats, but I'm still persevering.

Other than all that, you're talking about someone being granted the title of 'celebrity with some political pull' for all intents and purposes, if there's no fief. What's that worth?

That's what I'm trying to find out.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

Tradition. These are the Faberge egg cognates that I've been working on (Keramish globes). They were made for Empress Nicholle and Cleon IV before the Civil War. During the Civil War, various more or less legitimate emperors sold off many of them. After the war, Arbellatra claimed ownership of all lost Keramish globes but because of the legal mess and because some of the globes were in the possession of powerful nobles (archdukes and dukes), she also established a policy of not enforcing the claim. Because of this the emperors do not, as a matter of principle, buy the globes, but neither do they repossess them. They do, however, tend to be quite generous when they express their thanks for having one returned to them.

Incidentally, I've been trying to come up with various different examples of how that gratitude has been expressed. There's the baronial titles, and I think one younger archducal son has had a death sentence commuted to exile. I've also tried to come up with some pet ducal projects that has received Imperial patronage they wouldn't otherwise have gotten, but I haven't come up with anything good in that line.


Hans

It doesn't seem believable that if Strephon didn't care enough to just demand it back, that he would grant a title for it; one would suppose honor is worth more to him than money, of which he has endless amounts. Look at maslow's hierarchy of needs.

 

[Gray Pennell]

[Warning: The following is my interpretation of the available information; not everyone agree with me.]

Now, the Imperium do own some bits and pieces on various member worlds and also have title to some entire worlds. Hence the Emperor has worlds and continents and lesser estates to hand out as personal fiefs to his high nobles. Archdukes get a whole world each; lesser high nobles get lesser estates.

Unless I specifcally says otherwise, I always talk about the OTU, not MTU.


You'd lose that bet. I'm trying to reach a consensus.

EDIT: Cr10,000 is far too low and MCr10,000 sounds far too much.


Sure, but what do you want me to do? About eight or nine out of ten responses did not address my original question. Some of what was said was useful or interesting or thoughtprovoking, so I'm not complaining. But it didn't answer my question. So I've tried a couple of times to steer the discussion into channels that would provide the answers I'm trying to get. So far it has been like herding cats, but I'm still persevering.


That's what I'm trying to find out.


Hans

I have been reading and thinking and I see were I went wrong. I was looking at the value of the title as if its in the hands of the would be baron. But in actually we are really talking about the cost of hiring/rewarding the players. You have to judge based on the dangers the party will face in getting the bobble. To little and the players wont do it to much and they will double cross the patron.

I see a one time payment of transportation cost+Time (normal salaries per party member if its their ship or something else)+Bonus(Danger pay) as a multiple of the first two. This is to be paid half up front half on conformation of bobbles authenticity (prevents double cross)

Lets say transportation is about 10,000 cr the adventure takes a month so you get the 3000 cr thats 13000 for expenses my bonus would be 1 to 3 times per character lets make it dangerous so 39,000 bonus so for a sole adventure 52,000 with 26,000 up front. For a 3 person party 52,000+42,000+42,000 = 136K depending on how you handle transport cost.

 

[aramis]

I think the Scots Baronages are about dead on for an Imperial Court Barony. It comes with no fief, it's an honorary title, and it's a dread drain on your resources... (Many of the Scots baronies have lands which are entailed in unpleasant ways - they're a net loss as a property, but the Lords access makes them worthwhile.) But they give you a personal vote in Sector and Domain moots for life.

And MCr5 to MCr10 sounds about right for that... about 5-10x that of TAS memberships.

@Spinward
You're confounding their see with their fief; traveller (by accident, I suspect) misused the term fief for what properly is a demense. They're more like a medieval diocese than a medieval civil ruler...

They have a personal area where they are the whole of the government. (Historically, the demense; in traveller, the fief.) They are able to be absolute dictators within (but most choose not to be).

They have an office attached to the title, as well, and while they have an executive function within that area, and often a legislative one, they are not able to treat it as personal property; they rule it in the name of the Emperor as his agent.

 

[rancke]

I think the Scots Baronages are about dead on for an Imperial Court Barony. It comes with no fief, it's an honorary title, and it's a dread drain on your resources... (Many of the Scots baronies have lands which are entailed in unpleasant ways - they're a net loss as a property, but the Lords access makes them worthwhile.) But they give you a personal vote in Sector and Domain moots for life.

Qualitatively, you're right. I was speaking quantitatively. A Scottish baronage carries a lot less prestige than an Imperial barony would. That's why I joked about honorary Emperorships. Someone who was the ruler of a continent would be about the social equal of an Imperial baron (A world ruler would be ther equal of a marquis, or a count if it was a high-tech, high-population world).

@Spinward
You're confounding their see with their fief; traveller (by accident, I suspect) misused the term fief for what properly is a demense. They're more like a medieval diocese than a medieval civil ruler...

They have a personal area where they are the whole of the government. (Historically, the demense; in traveller, the fief.) They are able to be absolute dictators within (but most choose not to be).

They are owners of their fiefs, with all the rights of ownership. That only makes them rulers if the local laws conflate ownership and rulership, and even then they're unlikely to be absolute rulers. Witness the problems Leonard Bolden-Tukera had with the people on Lewis that he'd sold land to.


Hans

 

[Spinward Scout]

EDIT: Cr10,000 is far too low and MCr10,000 sounds far too much.

I win!

So far it has been like herding cats, but I'm still persevering.

Usually snacks, a couple of strips of nice, crispy bacon, or a cup of milk work pretty good for me. Er... I mean, my cat.

I'm still sticking with 32.754MCr. That's my bid.

@Spinward
You're confounding their see with their fief; traveller (by accident, I suspect) misused the term fief for what properly is a demense. They're more like a medieval diocese than a medieval civil ruler...

They have a personal area where they are the whole of the government. (Historically, the demense; in traveller, the fief.) They are able to be absolute dictators within (but most choose not to be).

They have an office attached to the title, as well, and while they have an executive function within that area, and often a legislative one, they are not able to treat it as personal property; they rule it in the name of the Emperor as his agent.

It almost sounds like being elected Mayor or something and being given a little bit of land for a reward. That wasn't how I ever saw it.

 

[rancke]

It almost sounds like being elected Mayor or something and being given a little bit of land for a reward. That wasn't how I ever saw it.

It's more like being appointed to an official post and getting a house to live in while you're doing it. It's not yours to keep or pass along to your heirs. If someone from another family is appointed take over your title, you lose the fief. I assume that the fief is supposed to support you in the manner an Imperial noble of your rank is expected to maintain.


Hans

 

[rancke]

I win!

Not if you were betting that I already had an approximate figure in mind. I do have a range in mind, but it's a pretty wide range.

I'm still sticking with 32.754MCr. That's my bid.

See, that's well within the range I have in mind.


Hans

 

[aramis]

It almost sounds like being elected Mayor or something and being given a little bit of land for a reward. That wasn't how I ever saw it.

It is, however, a pretty apt description of Landed Imperial Nobles.

Most nobles aren't landed, but reward/honor/court nobles. Title only, no fief, no power, and no office. Just a title, prestige, local, sector and domain moot access, and access to the landed nobles.

Which brings me to a response to Hans:
An imperial honor/reward baron (court baron) is DIRECTLY comparable to a Scottish barony. Vote in Lords, but not truly peers. Title, prestige and Obligation, but not authority.

 

[rancke]

An imperial honor/reward baron (court baron) is DIRECTLY comparable to a Scottish barony. Vote in Lords, but not truly peers. Title, prestige and Obligation, but not authority.

It's DIRECTLY comparable to a Scottish barony in EXACTLY the same way that the King of a South Sea island is comparable to Napoleon (Both of them were pretty much absolute rulers). Which is the same as saying that it is NOT comparable in scope and prestige. Which is precisely what I said in my previous reply to you.

EDIT: Oh, and another way they are not, or at least may not be, comparable is that Scottish baronies are subject to Scottish law whereas Imperial baronies are subject to Imperial law.


Hans

 

[far-trader]

A range then? OK, 2D6 x MCr1.0 adjusted by a roll on the Actual Value Table (skill DMs apply) to modify it by x40% to x400%.

Take it or leave it

 

[Gray Pennell]

A range then? OK, 2D6 x MCr1.0 adjusted by a roll on the Actual Value Table (skill DMs apply) to modify it by x40% to x400%.

Take it or leave it

There should be some skill or attribute modifier in there :devil:

 

[rancke]

A range then? OK, 2D6 x MCr1.0 adjusted by a roll on the Actual Value Table (skill DMs apply) to modify it by x40% to x400%.

What skill?

Take it or leave it

Since you misunderstood what I said, I'll leave it. Mostly, anyway. I'll take it to indicate the ballpark that you think the figure should fall into.

So, anywhere from Cr800,000 to MCr48? What would be the difference between an Imperial honor barony worth Cr800,000 and an Imperial honor barony worth MCr48?

Inquiring minds want to know!


Hans

 

[rancke]

There should be some skill or attribute modifier in there :devil:

Social class, maybe? If the Emperor was less likely to bestow a barony on a multi-billionaire with a social level of 3 and more likely to bestow one on a multi-billionaire with a social level of 11.

Not an unreasonable assumption, but I did specify that (because of prior occasions), the potential customers were convinced that the Emperor would bestow an honor barony on anyone who returned one of these globes to him.


Hans

 

[far-trader]

There should be some skill or attribute modifier in there :devil:

Sure, the "(skill DMs apply)" note covers that... (I might have been quickly editing that bit while you were posting )

What skill?

That's the question

Depends on the characters and the mark, er, I mean NPC Juan Abii :file_22:

I like your idea of Soc possibly applying. Maybe as in how trustworthy the PC representative is being a positive for the transaction and what a suitably valued "reward" would trend towards.

Or the NPC might be a big gambler and decide to game for it. High stakes, the globe against MCr100, winner takes all :devil: (so Gambling skill vs Gambling skill).

Maybe it's strictly a business negotiation (Broker skills?).

Or whatever however the players want to role play it vs your NPC role playing.

Since you misunderstood what I said, I'll leave it.

I don't think I did, but that bit was mostly tongue in cheek

Mostly, anyway. I'll take it to indicate the ballpark that you think the figure should fall into.

So, anywhere from Cr800,000 to MCr48? What would be the difference between an Imperial honor barony worth Cr800,000 and an Imperial honor barony worth MCr48?

Inquiring minds want to know!

Yep, my idea for ballparking it with a variable to drive and inspire my first take on the value range to cover the bounds of the scenario.

A very low roll might indicate that Juan Abii does not trust the characters. Suspects the item may be fake but is willing to gamble a small amount on it. Or maybe he just thinks he can get it cheap, knowing full well how much it is actually be worth.

A very high roll might mean Juan Abii is very naive or simply has enough funds to not sweat it and won't let the opportunity slip through his hands. Woe to the characters though if he finds he's been swindled. There won't be anywhere they can hide in all of charted space.

...but the dice should tend to the middle. And that should approximate the general goal of all such bargaining, to find the price where both parties are happy to think they got the best of the deal