What's an Imperial baronial title worth?

[rancke]

If I ran a modern adventure and my PCs got their hands on Fabergé's Winter Egg, and they asked me what it was worth, I wouldn't tell them "Anywhere from 1.1 million dollars to 66 million dollars". I'd tell them, "It sold for 9.6 million dollars ten years ago. Probably worth a bit more today. Call it 10-12 million dollars."

OK, so different Imperial Fabergé eggs range from an estimated value of 3-4 million dollars for the Rosebud Egg and the Hen Egg to 18.5 million dollars for the Coronation Egg. (which is still a much smaller range than 1-60). And if Keramish globes were exact cognates, I'd establish a similar range. But they're not. Their values are homogenized, if that's the word I want, by the inherent trait of being exchangable for an Imperial barony regardless of their intrinsic value. This would give them all roughly the same value regardless of material and construction. Certainly a lot less that a difference of a factor 60, or even a factor 6. (Now, if one of them was really exceptional and potentially worth a marquisate... :devil


Hans

 

[far-trader]

Well sure but, and maybe I have missed a point or two, wasn't the premise that the globes CAN"T be sold? So they really have no value inherent in themselves. The question was how much is a voting baronial title worth right? That's what I was operating under anyway. And it will be worth what the person wanting the power thinks it is worth to them, and to the characters who don't want the power it will be worth as much as they can get for it. Perhaps on the QT and under the table if your TU doesn't openly sell such or if they might be suspected of contravening your no selling globes tradition.

 

[aramis]

What skill?



Since you misunderstood what I said, I'll leave it. Mostly, anyway. I'll take it to indicate the ballpark that you think the figure should fall into.

So, anywhere from Cr800,000 to MCr48? What would be the difference between an Imperial honor barony worth Cr800,000 and an Imperial honor barony worth MCr48?

Inquiring minds want to know!


Hans

The desperation, and relative power of the local moots. If all it does is make you elligible for administrative or judicial jobs, then it's pretty much a low-value item in that region.

If, however, the local corporate bigwigs and major investment houses see court barons as the lowest rank of the social ladder they will deal with, then it's worth much more.

If your local Duke ignores court barons, lower value than if he's got an open door policy for them.

And, despite your inappropriate sarcasm, Hans, really, the Scots barons are comparable within the UK to the same relative role as hereditary Baronets are to the 3I. And, in a given population, probably about as numerous per capita.

 

[77topaz]

Why would the PC's not just take the title themselves? Any billionaire in his right mind would not pay more for the title than the title itself would give him (which would result in a netto monetary loss).

 

[Whipsnade]

It is known (because of earlier occasions) that returning this item to the Iridium Throne will result in the Emperor conferring an honor barony on the person who returns it.

When you examine the premise, this quoted bit is where the idea completely falls apart.

Returning one of these Globes always gains the person handing it over an honor barony? Always? In each and every case? No matter what? No matter who? No matter when?

Why don't you just have them roll on a treasure table from D&D? That's just as mindless and just as automatic as what's being suggested here.

Strephon isn't going to have a flyer on the Palace bulletin board announcing that the person who returns the next Globe will automatically become the Baron of Grey Matter. The who, what, when, where, and why are going to matter a great deal.

Gray Pennel touched on this fatal flaw when he suggested that social level should play some role. Filthy McNasty with his SOC of 1 isn't going to automatically get a barony from Strephon's hands when he somehow returns the Arglebargle Globe. More importantly, a billionaire with high SOC but nasty reputation isn't going to automatically get a barony either. Look at Rupert Murdoch and his current troubles for example. Do you think a 57th Century version of Rupert Murdoch will get a barony if he manages to get his hand on a Globe?

Assuming you want to sell it to some commoner billionaire with social ambitions, what sort of sum would you expect to be able to get for it?

You'll get what the market will bear. It could be a pittance, it could a fortune. It will very much depend on how many people are bidding, where they are bidding, and why they are bidding. Some people aren't going to bother with a Globe when they can buy a marriage instead. Social ambitions can be achieved in many ways and billions of credits provide may more options.

Anyone holding a Globe is basically holding a Christmas cracker, they've won something but they won't know what until they pop it open. How much you pay for that cracker is going to depend greatly on how desperately you want the prize inside and, if someone else knows you want it badly, they could bid up the price just to string you along.

That's the real adventure here. Not finding and selling an Automatic Reward Globe to a private buyer for an automatic price, but auctioning off a Globe among several bidders all of whom will have different reasons for bidding. Many could be there not to get the Globe but to make sure someone else doesn't...

 

[rancke]

Well sure but, and maybe I have missed a point or two, wasn't the premise that the globes CAN"T be sold?

No, the premise is that the Emperor does not buy them outright.

So they really have no value inherent in themselves. The question was how much is a voting baronial title worth right?

Yes, because that is what every globe is worth at a minimum, even if the intrinsic value would have been much more variable if they could not be exchanged for a barony. As I alluded to when I spoke of the current value of Imperial Fabergé eggs, which varies from 3 million to 18.5 million dollars (presumably in part because of their different materials and construction, in part because of their individual histories).

There is, of course, the possibility that they could have intrinsic values greater than an Imperial barony, but I don't think that is likely. I suppose it would depend on the material, workmanship, and history.

That's what I was operating under anyway. And it will be worth what the person wanting the power thinks it is worth to them, and to the characters who don't want the power it will be worth as much as they can get for it.

No, they will be worth what people think they can get for them. Which is another word for market value.


Hans

 

[rancke]

The desperation, and relative power of the local moots. If all it does is make you elligible for administrative or judicial jobs, then it's pretty much a low-value item in that region.

If, however, the local corporate bigwigs and major investment houses see court barons as the lowest rank of the social ladder they will deal with, then it's worth much more.

If your local Duke ignores court barons, lower value than if he's got an open door policy for them.

Not a bad notion, but I don't see that being enough to cause a difference of value of a factor 60.

And, despite your inappropriate sarcasm, Hans, really, the Scots barons are comparable within the UK to the same relative role as hereditary Baronets are to the 3I.

Imperial barons, not baronets.

And, in a given population, probably about as numerous per capita.

They most certainly are not! An incomplete list of Scottish baronies on Wikipedia lists 197 of them. Scotland has a population of 5.2 million people. I think it's fair to call it one baron per 25,000 people. That would work out as 600 million Imperial barons for the whole of the Imperium. Even without dragging in evidence from GT:Nobles, I submit that that would be patently absurd.

If we do look to Nobles, the number of Imperial barons are up to one per 250 million (emphasis mine[*]). Or at least ten thousand times rarer than Scottish barons.

So perhaps Imperial baronies are worth 10,000 times more than Scottish baronies?

[*] I take the 'up to' as license to assume that on some worlds the ratio is even lower, so as to avoid having over a hundred barons for a world like Rethe alone.​

Hans

 

[rancke]

Returning one of these Globes always gains the person handing it over an honor barony? Always? In each and every case? No matter what? No matter who? No matter when?

Well, no. If an Imperial noble returns one, he gets something else as a reward.

And I very carefully talked of multi-billionaires. If a scruffy adventurer returned one, he'd probably get a baronetcy and a valuable estate or something in that line.

Why don't you just have them roll on a treasure table from D&D? That's just as mindless and just as automatic as what's being suggested here.

Ah, but far less random.

Strephon isn't going to have a flyer on the Palace bulletin board announcing that the person who returns the next Globe will automatically become the Baron of Grey Matter.

No, of course not. But there is going to be records of what previous donors of Imperial Keramish globes got. And that record will show (tentative ideas) an archducal son who got a death sentence commuted to exile, seven commoner multi-billionaires who all got Imperial honor baronies, and... well, I haven't been able to think of any good examples yet, but various nobles getting support for pet projects that they would not otherwise have gotten support for.

You'll get what the market will bear. It could be a pittance, it could a fortune.

Bill, if I got legal possession of an Imperial Fabergé egg, would the money I could expect to get from selling it vary from a pittance to a fortune? No, it would probably vary from a X million dollars to X+1 million dollars. And then I might get more or less than what I expected, though almost certainly the figure would not be off by anything remotely close to a factor 8.

It will very much depend on how many people are bidding, where they are bidding, and why they are bidding.

Sure, if I sold it at an auction, it might fetch more or less than the estimate (although there'd be a reserve price below which the sale wouldn't be made). But there would be an estimated value and that value would not be a range of a factor 60.

Anyone holding a Globe is basically holding a Christmas cracker, they've won something but they won't know what until they pop it open.

Except that the whole point is that they do know what they're buying as they buy it.

That's the real adventure here. Not finding and selling an Automatic Reward Globe to a private buyer for an automatic price, but auctioning off a Globe among several bidders all of whom will have different reasons for bidding. Many could be there not to get the Globe but to make sure someone else doesn't...

Please, Bill, once I decide (with the help of the imput I get here) what the estimated value of a globe might be, I'm quite capable of exploring the ramifications and how the value that PCs realize might differ from that estimated value. But those ramifications will depend on, among other things, just what that estimated value is.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Why would the PC's not just take the title themselves?

Because they prefer the money, of course. If they preferred that one of them got the title, they wouldn't be planning to sell the globe.

Any billionaire in his right mind would not pay more for the title than the title itself would give him (which would result in a netto monetary loss).

Obviously not true. Just what, in monetary terms, does someone get out of buying a Scottish barony?


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

When you examine the premise, this quoted bit is where the idea completely falls apart.

Returning one of these Globes always gains the person handing it over an honor barony? Always? In each and every case? No matter what? No matter who? No matter when?

Why don't you just have them roll on a treasure table from D&D? That's just as mindless and just as automatic as what's being suggested here.

Strephon isn't going to have a flyer on the Palace bulletin board announcing that the person who returns the next Globe will automatically become the Baron of Grey Matter. The who, what, when, where, and why are going to matter a great deal.

Gray Pennel touched on this fatal flaw when he suggested that social level should play some role. Filthy McNasty with his SOC of 1 isn't going to automatically get a barony from Strephon's hands when he somehow returns the Arglebargle Globe. More importantly, a billionaire with high SOC but nasty reputation isn't going to automatically get a barony either. Look at Rupert Murdoch and his current troubles for example. Do you think a 57th Century version of Rupert Murdoch will get a barony if he manages to get his hand on a Globe?



You'll get what the market will bear. It could be a pittance, it could a fortune. It will very much depend on how many people are bidding, where they are bidding, and why they are bidding. Some people aren't going to bother with a Globe when they can buy a marriage instead. Social ambitions can be achieved in many ways and billions of credits provide may more options.

Anyone holding a Globe is basically holding a Christmas cracker, they've won something but they won't know what until they pop it open. How much you pay for that cracker is going to depend greatly on how desperately you want the prize inside and, if someone else knows you want it badly, they could bid up the price just to string you along.

That's the real adventure here. Not finding and selling an Automatic Reward Globe to a private buyer for an automatic price, but auctioning off a Globe among several bidders all of whom will have different reasons for bidding. Many could be there not to get the Globe but to make sure someone else doesn't...

The issue as I see is that it cheapens the station of being a baron to auction off the title, for all barons, it is tantamount to Strephon selling the honor of the Imperium. Why would Strephon denigrate his barons? There would have to be ulterior motive. Titles have been sold in the past, such as the Rothchilds in the Austrian Empire, but that is because the napoleonic wars bankrupted the Habsburgs and the Rothchilds made the empire solvent again. No such situation exists in the Imperium, at most, if one was to give the globe to the emperor as a gift, they would be able to ask a favor, but little else.

 

[rancke]

The issue as I see is that it cheapens the station of being a baron to auction off the title, for all barons, it is tantamount to Strephon selling the honor of the Imperium.

Just because I, the guy who outlines the idea for you in as few words as he can get away with, tells you that donating a Keramish globe to Strephon is a sure-fire way of getting a multi-billionaire ennobled doesn't mean that this is ever acknowledged by Strephon or any of his nobles.

Why would Strephon denigrate his barons? There would have to be ulterior motive. Titles have been sold in the past, such as the Rothchilds in the Austrian Empire, but that is because the napoleonic wars bankrupted the Habsburgs and the Rothchilds made the empire solvent again. No such situation exists in the Imperium, at most, if one was to give the globe to the emperor as a gift, they would be able to ask a favor, but little else.

No, they can't ask a favor. They can mention their future hopes and plans in the interview that Strephon quite properly will grant such a generous donor, but that's entirely different -- at least officially. And Strephon can, quite properly, reward them in any way he sees fit. But the Emperor doesn't bargain for the return of his property. No sirree!

Incidentally, history shows that kings have sold noble titles outright before, so I think Strephon could get away with doing it too; I just don't like the idea that he would do it in general.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Between £40,000 and £1M, adjusted to Cr and factored by YTU variables I don't know.

So perhaps Imperial baronies are worth 10,000 times more than Scottish baronies?

One pound is worth 1.6205 dollar, so if a tad over 3 dollars is equal to one Imperial credit, the "exchange rate" is two pounds to the CrImp. So that would be from CrImp20,000 to CrImp500,000 multiplied by 10,000, for a total value of MCrImp 200 to MCrImp5,000.

(All else being equal, of course, which they aren't.)


Hans

 

[Gray Pennell]

You know the Barony is worth nothing at all if the post about what the Imperuim does is true. If all it does is provide defense, scouts and research station it really has nothing to offer a would be barron. Its a paper title nothing more. If you said hi I am a baron some guy is likely to say yea I fart too.

 

[far-trader]

They most certainly are not! An incomplete list of Scottish baronies on Wikipedia lists 197 of them. Scotland has a population of 5.2 million people. I think it's fair to call it one baron per 25,000 people. That would work out as 600 million Imperial barons for the whole of the Imperium. Even without dragging in evidence from GT:Nobles, I submit that that would be patently absurd.

If we do look to Nobles, the number of Imperial barons are up to one per 250 million (emphasis mine
[*]). Or at least ten thousand times rarer than Scottish barons.

So perhaps Imperial baronies are worth 10,000 times more than Scottish baronies?

Just looking at character generation and my recollection of past PCs, NPC's and such products as 1,001 Citizens though, there are going to be a lot of Barons. As in it'd be hard to swing a cutlass in a Class A Starport and not hit one common As in the penalty for doing so is probably just a small fine for carelessness or in lieu of the fine a simple first blood cutlass duel with said Baron (hey, the PC started it by swinging his cutlass to prove the point :smirk: ).

I know, char gen doesn't necessarily inform for the general public, but I don't think it's going to be that Barons are as rare as 1 per 250 million, as much as that might be a very rational and sensible answer, because it fails the "everyman" theme that Traveller has long promoted if the PC and NPC Barons are supposed to be that rare yet so commonly created.

A figure on the order of 1 per 2.5 million feels closer to right to me just using your figures and a WAG for some ballpark number. So maybe 100 times the Scottish barony value? Going for between Cr200,000 and MCr5... seems a bit low. Maybe 1 Baron per 25 million and 1,000 times value? Between MCr2 and MCr50? Seems suitably rich for a minor peerage, maybe.

Would said value generate enough revenue to keep the Baron and family in the manner to which they feel they deserve? Something like Cr20,000 to Cr500,000 annually? Seems not too bad, depending on the location.

 

[aramis]

Hans, real traveller gives about 1:30 for imperial nobles vs non-nobles in character Gen. If we presume cgen to be 1:1000 with local wage slave types, it's Dead-on.

 

[Dragoner]

Just because I, the guy who outlines the idea for you in as few words as he can get away with, tells you that donating a Keramish globe to Strephon is a sure-fire way of getting a multi-billionaire ennobled doesn't mean that this is ever acknowledged by Strephon or any of his nobles.


No, they can't ask a favor. They can mention their future hopes and plans in the interview that Strephon quite properly will grant such a generous donor, but that's entirely different -- at least officially. And Strephon can, quite properly, reward them in any way he sees fit. But the Emperor doesn't bargain for the return of his property. No sirree!

Incidentally, history shows that kings have sold noble titles outright before, so I think Strephon could get away with doing it too; I just don't like the idea that he would do it in general.


Hans

The statements are contradictory, if he is granting a barony, he is bargaining.

Kings also have just taken what they wanted.

 

[Spinward Scout]

The statements are contradictory, if he is granting a barony, he is bargaining.

It sounds more like the Emperor isn't telling anyone that he's going to give a Barony for it. Then, it's just Referee knowledge unless the PCs have some way of finding out through 'unofficial' sources. I'm sure anyone could anticipate a 'reward' for returning the Emperor's property, tho. And a reward from the Emperor would almost certainly be a Noble title of some sort. Maybe at least to be Knighted.

 

[jshiggin]

You know the Barony is worth nothing at all if the post about what the Imperuim does is true. If all it does is provide defense, scouts and research station it really has nothing to offer a would be barron. Its a paper title nothing more. If you said hi I am a baron some guy is likely to say yea I fart too.

You mean, sort of like a knighthood in the modern UK?

There seem to be three types of nobility in the Third Imperium:

1) the people who actually run things. Like Duke Norris. Duke is the guy who runs a Sector, Baron as a small planet or piece of a larger one, other titles in between have holding in between.

2) Honor Nobles. These are the guys who get knighted/enobled for doing something that makes the Moot think he's worth saying "attaboy!" to. Think Medal of Honour winner, or maybe writer of a best-selling series about a young wizard...

3) The purely local nobles. These are not Imperial so much as part of the Imperium - the nobility on feudal and feudal technocratic societies.

I'm assuming that this particular thread deals with the second sort. The people that the Emperor wants to give an "attaboy" to without bothering to give them a continent out in the Marches.

So, whoever gets this will still be a billionaire, but now he'll be invited to all the posh parties....

 

[jshiggin]

OK, let me try to get at it yet another way. Westerbys, the most prestigious auction house on Mora, lists one of these objects for sale at its next auction[*], with enough lead time for people as far away as Deneb and Glisten to hear about it in time to get agents or instructions sent to Mora before the auction.

What sort of sum would you think the object might be sold for?

[*] Westerbys does not take favors or IOUs or years' supply of starship fuel. They take credits.​

Hans

MCr50. With a couple sectors worth of rich idiots, you'll find one who'll pay that much for it.

Hold the auction off for another year, and you can probably double the price, as more rich idiots will have time to send someone....

 

[rancke]

Just looking at character generation and my recollection of past PCs, NPC's and such products as 1,001 Citizens though, there are going to be a lot of Barons.

Yes indeed, provided the character generation system(s) accurately reflect the distribution of social class in the Imperium, Imperial barons are going to be as common as muck.

As in it'd be hard to swing a cutlass in a Class A Starport and not hit one common

Which is the very best argument I can think of to believe that the character generation system(s) do not accurately reflect the distribution of social class in the Imperium. And I consider the practice, indulged in by Traveller writers since the very beginning, of using the unmodified character generation system to generate NPCs to be a huge mistake.

I know, char gen doesn't necessarily inform for the general public, but I don't think it's going to be that Barons are as rare as 1 per 250 million, as much as that might be a very rational and sensible answer, because it fails the "everyman" theme that Traveller has long promoted if the PC and NPC Barons are supposed to be that rare yet so commonly created.

I don't think that theme is a concious one and I consider it an egregious mistake to assume that the setting is built on it. I think the use of the CGS to generate all NPCs is a manifestation of heedless jumping over the fence where it is lowest (Is that an English idiom too? It means doing a task the easiest way regardless.)

* The Imperium has one archduke per 2,500,000,000,000 people.
* The Imperium has one high duke per 50,000,000,000 people.
* The Imperium has one high count per 8,333,333,333 people (Assuming an average of six clusters per subsector).
* The Imperium has about one high noble (count or marquis or baron) per 1,363,636,364 people (less if the practice of doubling up on high noble titles is as common as the very scanty number of sample nobles we know of suggests)
* 1 honor baron per 250,000,000 would work out as 4.5 honor nobles for every high noble (i.e. 4.5 out of every 5.5 nobles), a ratio that I think is a little on the high side (I'd prefer 3 out of 4 or thereabouts), but definitely a ballpark figure. (You know, one might even be tempted to suspect that the authors of GT:Nobles had put some thought into the number they came up with. :smirk

1 honor baron per 36 people, on the other hand, is IMO so patently ridiculous that I can't believe anyone would seriously champion it. No offense, Dan, but IMO it's Flat Earth territory.

A figure on the order of 1 per 2.5 million feels closer to right to me just using your figures and a WAG for some ballpark number.

544 honor nobles out of every 545 nobles? And an Imperial Moot with six million members? Think about that for a moment.

Hans, real traveller gives about 1:30 for imperial nobles vs non-nobles in character Gen. If we presume cgen to be 1:1000 with local wage slave types, it's Dead-on.

Yes, and if we once we start presuming that cgen is not accurate (which I'm all in favor of -- in fact, as I suggested to Dan above, I think it's self-evident), there's absolutely no reason to think that 1:1000 would be the correct number. For reasons to believe that it is not the correct number, see above (And see GT:Nobles too, of course, but I know you don't consider it canon).


Hans