What's an Imperial baronial title worth?

[esampson]

Tradition. These are the Faberge egg cognates that I've been working on (Keramish globes). They were made for Empress Nicholle and Cleon IV before the Civil War. During the Civil War, various more or less legitimate emperors sold off many of them. After the war, Arbellatra claimed ownership of all lost Keramish globes but because of the legal mess and because some of the globes were in the possession of powerful nobles (archdukes and dukes), she also established a policy of not enforcing the claim. Because of this the emperors do not, as a matter of principle, buy the globes, but neither do they repossess them. They do, however, tend to be quite generous when they express their thanks for having one returned to them.

Incidentally, I've been trying to come up with various different examples of how that gratitude has been expressed. There's the baronial titles, and I think one younger archducal son has had a death sentence commuted to exile. I've also tried to come up with some pet ducal projects that has received Imperial patronage they wouldn't otherwise have gotten, but I haven't come up with anything good in that line.


Hans

First off, let me say that this sounds like an absolutely incredible MacGuffin. The way it is thought out prevents the concept that billionaires can commonly just buy a title. It can also be used in such a fashion as to preclude the concept of the billionaire/pirate just sending someone to steal it. Once it is known to be in someone's possession the Emperor isn't likely to just fork over a title if someone commits an overtly criminal act to obtain it and bring it to him (this doesn't preclude the possibility of chicanery on the part of certain billionaires but it does mean that the actions taken would be more subtle, such as finding out what competitors are bidding if it is a sealed bid auction).

Of course if the ownership of the MacGuffin is not public knowledge then that can lead to all sorts of other games as various teams compete to try and be the first one's to get their hands on in (and then get it back to their employers).

This thing has all sorts of possibilities for how it can me used and its value can even be adjusted through the Emperor's reward (maybe he only gives a Knighthood or a Baronet's title. Maybe there's actually a Barony that for various reasons has recently been vacated and it is expected that the reward could possibly me more than an honor title).

This is one of those plot devices that I look at and wish I had the cleverness to come up with on my own. Kudos.

Secondly, let me apologize if what I'm saying has already been said. I did make it much further than the post I'm quoting but I haven't had the time to sort through every single post on all the pages.

For the 'value' of the object I would try and work out as close to a real world equivalency as I could find. This is obviously really tricky but not impossible. Ask yourself, why is the top bidder interested in this device? Is it purely for reasons of prestige (which sounds to be the case)? Then I would try and find some of the most extravagant 'prestige' purchases made recently (things such as large yachts and planes, works of art, etc.) and use that as a guideline. If it is mostly for prestige but also because there is a certain degree of inherent value (such as the vote, being able to rub elbows with other nobles, etc.) then I might look at prestige expenses that also incorporate a certain amount of utility value. Things such as very expensive houses (where rich people can live as well as entertain).

Keep in mind that the vote or the ability to rub elbows with nobles might not have any worth to your billionaire. Depending upon how rich they are and social conventions they may already be rubbing elbows with plenty or nobles and indirectly controlling more than a few votes.

I realize this hardly gives you the hard and fast values you may have been looking for, but I think it may help you narrow in on a reasonable number better than me just spitting out some result.

 

[kilemall]

Hmmm, ran across this fun thing looking for other stuff. Interesting.

So, I will throw my little grenade in the room.

The thing that would make me leery of taking on such a mission/Maltese Falcon is the Very Special Attention I would receive.

Specifically, Imperial Attention.

Think the Imperial Security are just going to pat you on the head for bringing this thing in, And They Travelled Happily Ever After?

No, they are going to thoroughly investigate everyone involved with ANYTHING coming anywhere close to the Emperor, and so they are going to know about your dirty little deal to sell the baronetcy egg, and all about you and how you got it.

And then, assuming they decide to not just prosecute the heck out of you for methods likely not legal in getting the thing but keep it quiet just so more eggs will be encouraged to show, they will at the least have you flagged as a 'person of interest' in very high level intel/LE files.

For the rest of your life.

And, they may end up using that info at very awkward times as prosecution threats or blackmail at high social standing levels, to force cooperation into doing things you don't want to do.

Could end up being the most expensive payout your characters ever earned.

Or.

It could open up a whole wealth of contacts and jobs proving to be a reliable get it done sort of group with the invaluable trait of discretion and not abusing political ramifications.

May have to juggle such a status with your more...... earthy 'business contacts'.

 

[rancke]

The thing that would make me leery of taking on such a mission/Maltese Falcon is the Very Special Attention I would receive.

Specifically, Imperial Attention.

Think the Imperial Security are just going to pat you on the head for bringing this thing in, And They Travelled Happily Ever After?

Sure, why not? As I described it, the transaction is 100% legal and even winked at by the Emperor. Unless the PCs steal the thing from its sorta rightful owner, they can tell Imperial Security all about it.

The point of my question was how much people thought rich commoners would pay for an honor baronial title. Perhaps I should just have asked what you thought people would pay if the Emperor auctioned off such a title. I didn't do that, because I don't think Strephon is the kind of ruler who would do such a thing (the Strephon of MTU certainly isn't), but there's no reason why he might not. Plenty of Real World rulers have sold off titles.

So, as a hypothetical, assuming the Emperor put a baronial title up for auction, what do you think it would sell for?


Hans

 

[kilemall]

Sure, why not? As I described it, the transaction is 100% legal and even winked at by the Emperor. Unless the PCs steal the thing from its sorta rightful owner, they can tell Imperial Security all about it.

The point of my question was how much people thought rich commoners would pay for an honor baronial title. Perhaps I should just have asked what you thought people would pay if the Emperor auctioned off such a title. I didn't do that, because I don't think Strephon is the kind of ruler who would do such a thing (the Strephon of MTU certainly isn't), but there's no reason why he might not. Plenty of Real World rulers have sold off titles.

So, as a hypothetical, assuming the Emperor put a baronial title up for auction, what do you think it would sell for?


Hans

Well, the ones that have ambitions for it will be the ones in the running for title for pay- the ones who get one via arts or just as a natural consequence of 'doing their job' would no doubt appreciate the recognition but aren't looking to pay for it.

So, what does a baron title get you?

1) Connections and access to inner power circles, invaluable for both the political AND the fiscal minded.

2) Rights over and above the Hoi Polloi, which may allow movement or actions otherwise unavailable at any price.

3) Potentially landed barony, which may be useful to gain access to some resource that will further the aspirant's plans.

4) Someone could be setting up a 'front man' to use the above powers to further their goals, who looks good while the real purchaser stays in the shadows and requests 'favors'.

5) Finally, for some people the title WOULD be the prize, social legitimacy that cannot otherwise be obtained even with 'moving to the right neighborhood' and money. This is particularly so for a parent who wants to pass on a legacy of a title to their children.

Very subjective, based on utility and desire, and how politics, social contacts and economics plays out IYTU.

Ironically, I think #5 would be the one to most desperately pay any price for that title. The rest would have a utility vs. resources calculation, so 'market value' would fluctuate.

Let's call it 5 million credits as a baseline for the title alone, no inheritance rights or barony, and on up for value adds such as property, unique social/contractural access, heirs, prominence/prestige, functional offices attached to the title, fiscal assets/liabilities, etc.

 

[aramis]

Let's see... a terrain hex is worth... between KCr5 (no TC) and KCr50 (5 trade codes that count) and a Barony is 8 total hexes. 4 on the assigned world, 4 elsewhere in the subsector. Nominally, most are worth about KCr10 to KCr20 per hex for the 4 mainworld... and KCr5 per hex for the secondaries. (T5.09 p.68)

So that's KCr60 nominal annual income value.

KCr60, assuming the same relatively low ROI as a starship loan, is 1/240x the principal... which makes the median value roughly MCr14.4 plus social, political, and legacy value.

(The Baronetcy is MCr7.7, and the Knighthood MCr3.85...)

A certain undesirable minor barony might only bring KCr40 per year... and thus be worth MCr9.6 per annum.

I can see a title going for as low as half the investment value to about double it, depending upon a number of circumstances.

 

[kilemall]

Hmmm, does T5 consider baronial assets the nominal property of the Emperor, or the baron's to sell or dispose of as he sees fit?

If the latter, you may have a point, if the former, the barony as fiscal instrument is not so hot to sink in that kind of capital and you should do better investing elsewhere.

Of course, the value of the other privileges may more then make up for whatever shortfalls in the direct fiscal returns department.

 

[aramis]

Hmmm, does T5 consider baronial assets the nominal property of the Emperor, or the baron's to sell or dispose of as he sees fit?

If the latter, you may have a point, if the former, the barony as fiscal instrument is not so hot to sink in that kind of capital and you should do better investing elsewhere.

Of course, the value of the other privileges may more then make up for whatever shortfalls in the direct fiscal returns department.

Neither... somewhere in between.

The fief is the Emperor's, but the noble may do (within reason) whatever with it.

Selling a Baronial Title would require (at least) a Subsector Duke's assent for the interim passing, and the Emperor to affirm it.

Provided said title is hereditary, the Archduke signs off, and the Emperor signs off... it would work as such:
Person advertises for heir-adoptive.
Applicants put money into an escrow.
Local duke witnesses naming of heir-adoptive, forwards to archduke. Archduke forwards to Emperor, unless he objects with cause.
Emperor approves heir-adoptive, sends notice.
Duke invests heir-adoptive as heir-legal. Funds probably released
Baron abdicates in favor of heir.
Duke witnesses, notifies emperor.
Emperor confirms new heir as Baron.

At any point, someone objecting may stick the whole deal.

Prior canon implies that who the heir is varies at least culturally (Vilani, it's the third child as primary heir, Terran is first child), so it's likely that the cultural norm established with the fief would be specified as default, and provisions for heir presumptive, heir-named, and heir-accepted.

Further, we know from canon that the presumptive and even named heirs are not guarantees it shall pass to the heir; the Emperor can always reject.

Note also: Some knighthoods and banneretcies are archducal awards, not imperial; theoretically, those would be transferred at the Archduke's whim, not the emperor's.

Plus, I'm hesitant to judge the 3I by the T5 rules - it's default setting is M1900.

 

[rancke]

Let's see... a terrain hex is worth... between KCr5 (no TC) and KCr50 (5 trade codes that count) and a Barony is 8 total hexes. 4 on the assigned world, 4 elsewhere in the subsector. Nominally, most are worth about KCr10 to KCr20 per hex for the 4 mainworld... and KCr5 per hex for the secondaries. (T5.09 p.68)

So that's KCr60 nominal annual income value.

Not for an honor barony.

That is to say, things may have changed with T5 to honor titles automatically including a fief, but my question is based on the assumption that they don't. I assume they work much like in 17th+ Century Britain.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Not for an honor barony.

That is to say, things may have changed with T5 to honor titles automatically including a fief, but my question is based on the assumption that they don't. I assume they work much like in 17th+ Century Britain.


Hans

No such thing as a title without a fief under T5. no Honor/Reward/high noble distinction.

IMPERIAL FIEFS
Nobles of the Imperium receive, as part of their grant of title, a fief: a Noble Land Grant expressed as hexes on world geodesic maps.

Bolding original.

 

[Condottiere]

I don't see it possible to sell a title from one noble to a commoner or another noble, as the concept is being a viceroy of the Emperor. It would be easier in just creating a new title with requisite fief, and schmoozing the right people.

I see it possible transferring or exchanging a fief between nobles, as long as the Emperor signs off on it.

The traditional method, besides buying a new one or earning it, is marrying the holder or the heir, and passing it on to your descendants.

 

[kilemall]

The traditional method, besides buying a new one or earning it, is marrying the holder or the heir, and passing it on to your descendants.

That might end up being more expensive!

 

[whulorigan]

No such thing as a title without a fief under T5. no Honor/Reward/high noble distinction.

Originally Posted by T5.09 p 68
IMPERIAL FIEFS
Nobles of the Imperium receive, as part of their grant of title, a fief: a Noble Land Grant expressed as hexes on world geodesic maps.

Of course the question is (referencing both T5.09: p.65, 68, and Imperiallines #7: Nobles) does the above quote refer to anyone with a C6/Soc = 11+, or does it refer specifically to those who have gone thru the Nobles Career? The Imperiallines article does seem to imply that the distinction of Landed (High), Ceremonial (Rank) and Honor/Legacy (Honor & Local) Nobles still exists.

Admittedly, the fact that there is a page (p.68) about Noble fiefs separate from the fief-details listed under the Noble Career (p.65) seems to imply that the fiefs are broader than simply the rewards of the Noble Career proper.

Also, remember that part of the calculation should probably include consideration (as an intangible) of the Proxy Votes that a Noble receives, since they can be a significant source of power or remunerative income for the Noble thru sale of the proxy to a political Noble.

Hmmm, does T5 consider baronial assets the nominal property of the Emperor, or the baron's to sell or dispose of as he sees fit?

Under T5, each Terrain Hex (THex) of a Noble's Fief also includes a Local Hex (LHex) that is personal property owned outright. So whatever is the case concerning the ownership and transferability of the THexes, the LHexes (as personal property) are the Noble's (or ex-Noble's) to do with as s/he sees fit.

 

[rancke]

No such thing as a title without a fief under T5. no Honor/Reward/high noble distinction.

"...things may have changed with T5 to honor titles automatically including a fief, but my question is based on the assumption that they don't. I assume they work much like in 17th+ Century Britain."


Hans