What's an Imperial baronial title worth?

[Omnivore]

An interesting mod might be to change the view of the relationship between SOC and titles. Let SOC 13 be the lowest rung, knights; SOC 14 the honor titles, baronets; and SOC 15 is where the 'real' titles begin.

'course then you'd have to change the nobles career to playboy... idle rich but not necessarily noble rank.

 

[Dragoner]

It sounds more like the Emperor isn't telling anyone that he's going to give a Barony for it. Then, it's just Referee knowledge unless the PCs have some way of finding out through 'unofficial' sources. I'm sure anyone could anticipate a 'reward' for returning the Emperor's property, tho. And a reward from the Emperor would almost certainly be a Noble title of some sort. Maybe at least to be Knighted.

Why would the reward be entitlement? The weird thing is that, it is a reward for what you are supposed to do, at least in the emperor's eyes. Things like this have a tendency to backfire as well, sometimes it is better not to be noticed. They are becoming exposed to court politics as well.

 

[jshiggin]

As I understand it, this isn't "the Emperor's property", this is something that the Emperor owned way back. Think of it as something that Queen Elizabeth I owned, and gave away.
Now, you have it, and want to give it to Queen Elizabeth II....

 

[rancke]

As I understand it, this isn't "the Emperor's property", this is something that the Emperor owned way back. Think of it as something that Queen Elizabeth I owned, and gave away.
Now, you have it, and want to give it to Queen Elizabeth II....

Sort of. The ownership is legally ambiguous. To quote myself from an earlier post:

[Keramish globes] were made for Empress Nicholle and Cleon IV before the Civil War. During the Civil War, various more or less legitimate emperors sold off many of them. After the war, Arbellatra claimed ownership of all lost Keramish globes but because of the legal mess and because some of the globes were in the possession of powerful nobles (archdukes and dukes), she also established a policy of not enforcing the claim. Because of this the emperors do not, as a matter of principle, buy the globes, but neither do they repossess them. They do, however, tend to be quite generous when they express their thanks for having one returned to them.

Hans

 

[Spinward Scout]

They do, however, tend to be quite generous when they express their thanks for having one returned to them.s

So it's in the history books IYTU that someone could get a Baron title for bringing it back?

 

[rancke]

So it's in the history books IYTU that someone could get a Baron title for bringing it back?

But there is going to be records of what previous donors of Imperial Keramish globes got. And that record will show (tentative ideas) an archducal son who got a death sentence commuted to exile, seven commoner multi-billionaires who all got Imperial honor baronies, and... well, I haven't been able to think of any good examples yet, but various nobles getting support for pet projects that they would not otherwise have gotten support for.

Hans

 

[rancke]

An interesting mod might be to change the view of the relationship between SOC and titles. Let SOC 13 be the lowest rung, knights; SOC 14 the honor titles, baronets; and SOC 15 is where the 'real' titles begin.

IMTU planetary nobility occupy a sizable chunk of the social ladder. Imperial nobility start with barons at SOC 24 and the Emperor is SOC 33.


Hans

 

[Spinward Scout]

So, there's record of what happened when previous Keramish globes were returned and donated to the Emperor (or previous Emperors). The person who returned it was given an honorary title of Baron (or sometimes other 'generous' shows of Imperial gratitude).

But that the Emperor (and other Nobles) will not publicly admit that that's what will happen (even though it's publicly documented), so it's treated as if it's almost a rumor. A legend of sorts.

A 500 year old legend of an item that could then go from: "That's nothing - melt it down and sell the scrap metal" to "[waves a gun at the PCs]Give me that and put your hands in the air! The Emperor will make me an ArchDuke if I turn it in!"

Because, in this day and age, people will listen to what someone else tells them instead of looking it up. Maybe that's changed in the 3rd Imperium, but I doubt human nature would change that much.

And the PCs definitely want to sell this legendary bauble?

You say you would like all of us to help you determine the value or estimated value - either 'fair market value' or 'at auction'. You've disagreed with people who even gave you historical references. And have even had a 'discussion' about the 'incorrect' distribution of Social Classes throughout the Imperium in the middle of the thread.

Did I get all that right?

The Imperial Ministry of Humor would like to inform you that that's not very fraking funny.

Or it's the funniest thing I've seen in a while.

o:

Who are you and what did you do with Rancke?

I honestly don't see how you can come up with a consensus here. Everybody is going to have a different opinion. And you've disagreed with several.

It's a great thought experiment, but I think you're going to have to stick with 32.754MCr.



Oh, c'mon. I couldn't have convoluted it more than it already is.

 

[rancke]

Because, in this day and age, people will listen to what someone else tells them instead of looking it up. Maybe that's changed in the 3rd Imperium, but I doubt human nature would change that much.

I think that a multi-billionaire who is contemplating buying an expensive piece of jewelry will have all the various aspects of the transaction thoroughly investigated first. If you don't think so, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

And the PCs definitely want to sell this legendary bauble?

Nothing legendary about it. It's a concrete as any Imperial Fabergé egg.

You say you would like all of us to help you determine the value or estimated value - either 'fair market value' or 'at auction'. You've disagreed with people who even gave you historical references.

No one has given me historical references to the sales value of Imperial baronies. I have disagreed with people who think that Scottish barons are the same social class as Imperial barons, true. Just as I would disagree with anyone who claimed that a 19th Century South Sea Island king was the social equal of the King of England ("Hey, they're both kings!").

And have even had a 'discussion' about the 'incorrect' distribution of Social Classes throughout the Imperium in the middle of the thread.

Discussions on these forums do have a way of going out along tangents. As long as we're still talking about Traveller subjects, few people mind.

Do you think that the ratio of Imperial barons in the Imperium is 1 in 36? Because unless you do, the quotes around 'incorrect' are uncalled for.

It's a great thought experiment, but I think you're going to have to stick with 32.754MCr.

I'll be sure to keep that in mind. Thank you for your input.


Hans

 

[far-trader]

...32.754MCr.

What was the last bid Drew?

...32.754MCr.

I'll say 32.755MCr.

And the actual retail price of the Keramish Globe is... 32.895MCr... you're the winner Far-Trader, get up here and let's play a pricing game... if you play your cards right you could win... A BARONY!

EDIT: It occurs to me (late) that the fine daytime game show programming of Terra circa 20thC may not have reached all of Charted Space or be on everyone's DVR list and the reference above will confuse some, Google "YouTube Price is Right" for info.

 

[Spinward Scout]

I think that a multi-billionaire who is contemplating buying an expensive piece of jewelry will have all the various aspects of the transaction thoroughly investigated first. If you don't think so, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Deal! I do agree to disagree.

A multi-billionaire wants to make a transaction but who can't get the Nobility to confirm or deny the legitimacy of the transaction would never have gotten to be a multi-billionaire by making transactions like that. He or she might as well go buy some 'magic beans'.

[Imperial multi-billionaire sees ArchDuke Norris at his favorite VIP restaurant]:
Hey Archie! I need some advice. I got these kids trying to sell me a Keramish Globe and I was wondering if the Emperor still gives Baronies out for that.

[ArchDuke Norris replies]:
I can neither confirm nor deny that. And don't call me Archie...

And of course, PCs, being PCs, will listen to the rumor mill. But it's YTU.

I'll say 32.755MCr.

Nooooooo!

The price is wrong, Bob Barker!

You thought I was going to say something else, didn't you?

:rofl:

 

[E.D.Quibell]

You know the Barony is worth nothing at all if the post about what the Imperuim does is true. If all it does is provide defense, scouts and research station it really has nothing to offer a would be barron. Its a paper title nothing more. If you said hi I am a baron some guy is likely to say yea I fart too.

Not in the Imperium. Social class matters.

If you say "Hi I'm a Baron" the response would be "Yes M'lord what can I do for you?"

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[E.D.Quibell]

So, whoever gets this will still be a billionaire, but now he'll be invited to all the posh parties....

Bang on. And what do you think that will do to his billionare status? Make him even more money and give him a chance to become a hereditory Nobel.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[rancke]

A multi-billionaire wants to make a transaction but who can't get the Nobility to confirm or deny the legitimacy of the transaction would never have gotten to be a multi-billionaire by making transactions like that. He or she might as well go buy some 'magic beans'.

You've lost me. I can't figure what point you're trying to make (or refute) nor work out the logic involved. I can parse the sentence, but after that I'm at a loss.

And of course, PCs, being PCs, will listen to the rumor mill. But it's YTU.

Well, no. As I've pointed out before:

As usual, unless I specifically says otherwise I'm talking about our common frame of reference, the OTU. Not my TU (although I try to keep MTU as close to the OTU as I find practical) and not anybody else's TU, but the OTU.

(And if I did want to talk about my TU, I'd post in the IMTU forum).

So I'm talking about the OTU of the Classic Era.

And (as I've also said before), I'm trying to get a feel for what people would consider the fair market value. PCs and the possibility of fake globes don't really come into it. Any elements along those lines have either been introduced by people making unwarranted assumptions or by me endeavoring to get people to address the actual question.

One of the ways I tried to get an apposite answer was to frame it as a question of what people would accept in a published adventure. What figure for how much such a thing was worth would people consider too low to believe and what figure would people consider to high to believe.


Hans

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Hans, me thinks you didn't understand what you were asking the nerd crowd.

Dude, you just have to face facts. There is no simple answer to your question. You keep acting like this a simple Yes/No question and given the nature of the OTU it does not have a simple black and white answer. It has a range of gray.

It seems what the forum is saying is "Depends on factors.", so man up and say, to hell with it "It is worth MCr 2 to MCr 25. The end." Which is cool! But when you ask a bunch of folks what they think it is worth and they all tend to say "Depends." perhaps you should not be so snitty when they say it.

Also, the whole Scots Barony doesn't equal an Imperial Barony in the OTU is sort of "Well, duh!" thing. However, it does scale so is valid for giving an answer to the question. As for King of England and King of South Sea Island, yes in fact the correct answer is "It don't matter they are both Kings!". Which is why when the King of England writes a letter to King of South Sea Island he addresses him as "Dear Brother" not "Lesser than me King". The both recognize each other as fellow sovereigns and treat each other as such.

Laterness,
Craig.

 

[rancke]

Dude, you just have to face facts. There is no simple answer to your question.

There's no simple answer to the question you've gotten it into your head that I'm asking.

It seems what the forum is saying is "Depends on factors.", so man up and say, to hell with it "It is worth MCr 2 to MCr 25. The end." Which is cool! But when you ask a bunch of folks what they think it is worth and they all tend to say "Depends." perhaps you should not be so snitty when they say it.

Except that not all people say that. I've gotten some actual answers from people who do understand what question it is that I'm asking.

Also, the whole Scots Barony doesn't equal an Imperial Barony in the OTU is sort of "Well, duh!" thing. However, it does scale so is valid for giving an answer to the question.

But the scale is relevant to the answer. Imperial barons are nowhere as common in the Imperium as Scottish barons are in Scotland.

As for King of England and King of South Sea Island, yes in fact the correct answer is "It don't matter they are both Kings!". Which is why when the King of England writes a letter to King of South Sea Island he addresses him as "Dear Brother" not "Lesser than me King". The both recognize each other as fellow sovereigns and treat each other as such.

No, that is not true. I mentioned 19th Century South Sea kings precisely in order to present a historical example of two different kinds of kings. George IV would not have written to a South Sea island king in the first place and if he did, he most certainly wouldn't have addressed him as an equal.

What Elizabeth II would say to the current king of one of the few surviving South Sea kingdoms in our more enlightened era is a different matter.

But, hey, I don't want to get sidetracked into a discussion of how much of a king a South Sea island king is and was and will be, so consider the example withdrawn and a pirate king substituted. We can agree that a sovereign king on a first-class throne would not consider a pirate king his peer, I hope? If not, how about a gypsy king? Or a beggar king? Or a king of thieves? Take your pick.


Hans

 

[Spinward Scout]

You've lost me. I can't figure what point you're trying to make (or refute) nor work out the logic involved. I can parse the sentence, but after that I'm at a loss.

Fair enough.

I think you misunderstand that we don't have a common frame of reference. There is nothing in canon sources that I'm aware of about someone selling an honorary Noble title. The most we can come up with is a guesstimate based on approximate value for the 500 year old or so legendary bauble (as legendary as a Fabergé egg, or more so) as compared to current economics and the approximate known economics of Traveller. Everything about the Noble title aspect is conjecture and supposition.

 

[rancke]

Everything about the Noble title aspect is conjecture and supposition.

But I'm asking you for your conjecture and supposition. I think the version of my question that I eventually came up with that expresses it best is "If you were reading about something like this in an official adventure and it gave a figure for the market value, what figure would you consider too low to be believable and what figure would you consider too high to be believable?"


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

Everything about the Noble title aspect is conjecture and supposition.

And rather boring, it would be more interesting if like Didius Julianus, he quickly came to regret his purchase as he was universally disrespected, before being murdered a few months later. Then there would be pathos to the tale at least.

 

[rancke]

Based on the useful replies I've decided on an estimated value of between 20 and 25 megacredits.

I was tempted to go with the MCr200-5,000 that I calculated based on the historical example of the Scottish baronies, but in the end I decided not to.


Hans