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When were Black Globes found?

rancke

Absent Friend
Can anyone tell me if the date the cache of black globe generators on Knorbes was found has been mentioned anywhere in canon? Also, ISTR the figure of 5000 BGGs being found in said cache being mentioned somewhere, but I can't find the reference. Can anyone help?

Is there any canonical mention of a black globe generator any time before 1074?


Hans
 
The only note I know of that talks about Knorbes and the Black Globes is in the back of the Droyne Alien Module....no dates are noted.
 
I recall a reference to a scientist being cut in half during an experiment with a black globe - the date of their salvage may be in the same reference.

All I have to do now is find it...
 
Hans,

Wow... that's a real head-scratcher...

I first wanted to say you could date blackglobes back to when the Imperium reached TL15, but TL15 globes are so lousy in combat that it's entirely possible that the TL15 globes in HG2 are just poorly reversed engineered copies of those globes from that Ancient cache found on Knorbes in 1074.

Wow... I've got some books to thumb through...


Regards,
Bill

P.S. Mike - I remember that story too and now I've got to find it!
 
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I first wanted to say you could date blackglobes back to when the Imperium reached TL15, but TL15 globes are so lousy in combat that it's entirely possible that the TL15 globes in HG2 are just poorly reversed engineered copies of those globes from that Ancient cache found on Knorbes in 1074.
Yes, I assume that Black Globe technology is a result of reverse-engineering those generators. Just because you can build something at TL X if you know how, it doesn't follow that you actually figured out how to do it when you reached TL X. Look at those drop tank capacitors.

But I'm not sure when those BGGs were found. I'm hoping that either it was never specified (so that I can suit myself) or that it was at least some years before 1074. That's when a ship with fitttings to install a BGG is laid down, so one would assume that they had figured how to build one by then.


Hans
 
Yes, I assume that Black Globe technology is a result of reverse-engineering those generators. Just because you can build something at TL X if you know how, it doesn't follow that you actually figured out how to do it when you reached TL X. Look at those drop tank capacitors.



Hans,

Very much agreed, and drop tanks are another good example.

But I'm not sure when those BGGs were found. I'm hoping that either it was never specified (so that I can suit myself) or that it was at least some years before 1074. That's when a ship with fitttings to install a BGG is laid down, so one would assume that they had figured how to build one by then.

1074 is the latest date definitely and one I personally wouldn't like to use. They're laying down vessels with BGG brackets in 1074, but I should think they've been working on reverse engineering the technology well before that.

So, how many years have they been messing around with globes from the Knorbes Cache? Five? Ten? The process seems to have been fraught with "industrial accidents", there's that bisected researcher Mike and I remember after all. If we can find a date for the cache's discovery or the accident, you'd have something to start with.

Here's another thought though; how long did the Imperium fiddle with those 5,000 gadgets before they realized the gadgets produced blackglobes? The "delay" between finding the cache and building the brackets in the Kinunir-class could be very have been decades.


Regards,
Bill
 
Let's see what I can find with a grep...

"black globe"
TTB 86 TL table entry TL15.
TTB 155 in LD entry on Research stations, reference to subjects.
ST 16 same TL table as TTB 86
A2 p44 same LD entry as TTB155
A4 41 data block for the kinunir class
A5 30 reference for code 4 BG in 1982 TCS tournaments.
A12 14-15 LD entry on BG's...
A12 37 LD entry on "Naval Site" references cache on Kinorbes. page lists 6 known ancient sites in the marches.
AM5 5 LD entry Black Globes (same as A12)
AM5 44 RLD entry on ancients sites in the marches
AM5 46 offhand reference to a BG holder.
5FW 9 reference in rules
5FW 19 rules on use, reference to 4 batrons having BGs.
S5 3 1071 refurb includes AHL's getting BGGs; shortage left two without until 1104, however.
S8 33 LD Imperial Research Station
S9 19, 32, 42: class has variant carrying a BGG.
JTAS6 23. Note that this is High Guard ship system in its JTAS appearance.
JTAS7 18 rule crossreference; this is the combat system for HG in JTAS.
JTAS7 21 BG combat rule for HG.
JTAS8 20,22 HG combat tables
JTAS20 44 only a BG can stop an APAWS.
JTAS24 33 Leroy Guatney's article on HG and TCS campaigns references them.
MTPM 38 skill list entry
MTIE 28 Imperial Research LD entry.
MTRM 60 description of BG
MTRM 80 design tables for BG
MTRM 94 Damage table explanations
MTRM 95-96 combat rules for BGGs
THB004 208-209 combat rules for BGGs in T20
----
There is a note on S9 p42 that 50% are nonfunctional as of the date of S9, 1000 to 1107

A12 14-15
Black Globes: Rarely do excavations of Ancient sites produce working artifacts. One site proved to be a treasure trove with more than 2,000 operating black globe generators almost waiting to be installed in Imperial ships. Black globes typify the incomprehensible artifacts of the Ancients: each of the devices found is a small metal device measuring about 300 cm on a side with a shiny metal finish. Two minor discolorations on the surface are the on and off switches.
When the device is activated, it projects a black force field in a sphere around the device at a radius of about one meter. In the first experiments with the device, a researcher was cut in half by the force field when he touched the switch; in the second, it was activated remotely by a rod. Both of the black globes could not then be turned off because the off switch was inside the force field.
The black globe was adopted by the Imperial Navy as a form of armor for its fighting ships. Using the many black globe devices found, the Navy has been able to produce crude duplicates of them, but researchers are still a long way from a good understanding of how these devices work.​

A12 37
Naval Site: The lmperial Navy administers a site on Knorbes. Elaborate precautions have been taken to conceal the fact that a site even exists, while similarly elaborate security measures trap and detain intruders.
The Navy has made this site a major excavation project; the Ancient base was originally destroyed when a massive attack cratered the area and then toppled mountains into the craters. In the thousands of years since, erosion has uncovered the
ruined brick and mortar buildings of the site. Of especial interest is the large cache of black globe force field generators discovered here.​


Conclusions
1071 clearly is the latest possible date for first marches use of found BGG's; it probably is earlier. I would interpret from both the 5FW and S5 references that in 1104, manufacture began of copies; that's an interpretation, mind you, but I think it fits well, especially given the "date" of rules.
 
1071 clearly is the latest possible date for first marches use of found BGG's; it probably is earlier. I would interpret from both the 5FW and S5 references that in 1104, manufacture began of copies; that's an interpretation, mind you, but I think it fits well, especially given the "date" of rules.


Wil,

Fascinating stuff, especially the reference to a shortage of globes for the AHL refits until 1104.

So, we've "over 2,000" globes found on Knorbes at some date, experiments performed on them, and their being adopted as "form of armor" by the IN. Globes are then being used aboard the Kinunir-class by 1074, not enough are available for the 1077 refit of the elderly AHLs until 1104, and four Marches BatRons equipped with them by the start of the 5th Frontier War in 1107.

Looking at the numbers of globes known to be in use:

  • 2 - Experiments
  • 20 - Kinunir-class (even Gaesh had one, she just failed her jump trials)
  • 28 - AHL-class (assuming the full refit)
  • 24 to 32 - BatRons (assuming the canonical six to eight vessels per squadron)

Have we accounted for 74 to 82 of the Knorbes Cache? That would leave quite a few globes available, wouldn't it? Could it be that the Imperial Navy is using only the globes found on Knorbes? That the reverse engineered copies are still too crude for actual use?


Regards,
Bill
 
Not likely, Bill...
A1 is also 1105; A12 is 1105; S8 is 1107. AM5 is undated, as is A0.

A1 has the site already locked down as of 1-1105, and it's known about sector wide, tho' not why. The world is also known to be a hunting preserve for the Imperium.

And you're only accounting for the batrons in the Marches. we should see another 24-32 each in the neighboring sectors: Deneb and Reft. Heck, at 24 per sector, approximately 19 sectors worth of Imperium, that's 450-700 globes right there for batrons, plus local constructions in similar numbers in other sectors & domains (the AHL is apparently a Marches design, for the domain, and the kinunir almost exclusively local) so another 450-700 allocated for local uses, and another 200 for domain experimentals, and a hundred or so for just getting the research done...

One can readily extrapolate those 2000 being gone 4 years after the Emperor finds out... simply to form a core of BG units.

I would expect the devices to have been figured out in about 1070, myself... otherwise the Kinunirs (being so small, and thus incapable of absorbing serious fire) area really bad choice for anything other than spying; even then, a rock would be a better spyship. But as an experimental "can we reliably mount these", the obsolescent AHLs and the tiny Kinunirs are really good testbeds... especially if there's a limited allotment per sector already ordered... in the case of the AHLs, they're expendable hulls; the kinunirs are relatively cheap.
 
Not likely, Bill... (snip) And you're only accounting for the batrons in the Marches. we should see another 24-32 each in the neighboring sectors: Deneb and Reft. Heck, at 24 per sector, approximately 19 sectors worth of Imperium, that's 450-700 globes right there for batrons, plus local constructions in similar numbers in other sectors & domains (the AHL is apparently a Marches design, for the domain, and the kinunir almost exclusively local) so another 450-700 allocated for local uses, and another 200 for domain experimentals, and a hundred or so for just getting the research done...


Wil,

That was sort of what I was driving at.

We've 2000+ globes found on Knorbes, which means as many as 2500 to my poor old head(1), so how fast can the boffins ferret out the globes' secrets, decide they're safe, and then begin assigning globes to multi-MCr warships Imperium-wide? A decade? Maybe longer?

One can readily extrapolate those 2000 being gone 4 years after the Emperor finds out... simply to form a core of BG units.

Agreed. They'll be used in more places than warships too.

I would expect the devices to have been figured out in about 1070, myself...

Which may point to a discovery date of 1065 or 1060?

And which also ties in nicely with my TU's decades old "explanation" of the Kinunir many oddities being the result of the vessels being test beds for the first purely Imperium-manufactured globes...

But as an experimental "can we reliably mount these", the obsolescent AHLs and the tiny Kinunirs are really good testbeds... especially if there's a limited allotment per sector already ordered... in the case of the AHLs, they're expendable hulls; the kinunirs are relatively cheap.

Again, agreed.

The testbed Kinunirs begin construction in 1074. They'll utilize Imperium globes alone and test the globes suitability. The Kinunir test project goes well enough for Imperial-manufactured globes to added to the already scheduled AHL Penbody MA-21 meson gun refits in 1077. Problems in either manufacturing or design of the globes meant, however, that two of the 28 meson gun-refitted AHLs wouldn't receive their globes until 1104.

So, between ~1060 and ~1075 the Imperium "used up" the globes of the Knorbes Cache and began manufacturing their own, inferior copies. Sound plausible?

Another reason I like this is that it means the IN BatRons with globes aren't using TL15 versions. TL15 globes are Factor-1 which means that, aside from either being fully on or off, they can only flicker at a 10% rate. While the globe does act as a sort of "regenerative" armor, a 10% flicker rate isn't too much of an advantage. Especially when you remember that intercepted energy points need to be stored. Because they're using Ancient globes, the IN BatRons will have globes with higher flicker rates and thus globes that are more useful.


Regards,
Bill

1 - In my addled mind, the phrase "more than 2000" means 2001-2500 and "nearly 3000" means 2501-2999. The Knorbes Cache is described as containing "more than 2,000 operating black globes" hence my use of the 2001-2500 estimate.
 
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So, we've "over 2,000" globes found on Knorbes at some date, experiments performed on them, and their being adopted as "form of armor" by the IN. Globes are then being used aboard the Kinunir-class by 1074, not enough are available for the 1077 refit of the elderly AHLs until 1104, and four Marches BatRons equipped with them by the start of the 5th Frontier War in 1107.
Which four batrons were that?


Hans
 
And you're only accounting for the batrons in the Marches. we should see another 24-32 each in the neighboring sectors: Deneb and Reft. Heck, at 24 per sector, approximately 19 sectors worth of Imperium, that's 450-700 globes right there for batrons,
The globes may also have been allocated unevenly, proportinally more going to the fleets in the Core than to the fleets on the borders; the Emperor might have wanted the fleets closest to himself better equipped than those further away.

...plus local constructions in similar numbers in other sectors & domains (the AHL is apparently a Marches design, for the domain...
The AHL is explicitly an Imperium-wide design. The Marches only got as many of the contracts as it did because Duke Willem struck a deal.


Hans
 
But the counters don't map to any of the known classes?


Hans,

Tell me, how do you match an FFW counter's three factors to a HG2 USP? ;)

Besides, S:9 flatly states that any Kokirrak-class dreadnought the players may encounter has a 50% chance of mounting a Factor-4 black globe. There's your FFW counters right there.

Even more interesting, S:9 also states that "This class of dreadnaught (sic), when originally designed and constructed, mounted black globe force field generators. Over the years, various ships have suffered black globe generator failures, and the devices have not been replaced."

I should think that is a very fascinating passage when read in the light of Wil's recent suppositions regarding the time period in which the Knorbes' Cache globes were placed in service.

Very interestingly and thanks to both Wil and S:9, we've now got:
  • Factor-4 globes which are obviously Ancient relics because such globes cannot be manufactured at TL15.
  • Factor-4 globes installed aboard "one of the older classes of dreadnaughts (sic) in Imperial service" and perhaps installed as a way to extend their service life.
  • Factor-4 globes which now only have a 50% chance of working because they are Ancient relics.
  • Factor-4 globes aboard a class of dreadnoughts which "are now being phased out of service." and perhaps being phased because their broken globes now limit their utility.

Despite how canon was put together, all of this makes almost perfect sense!

Screwy how it all comes together sometimes, isn't it?


Regards,
Bill
 
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One other element to keep in mind; a large cache outside the marches should have been fairly small; the Ancients civiliation was centered around the marches, and Knorbes is only a couple jumps from Eskaloyt.

I was also going to mention factor 4 instead of factor 1... but got beat to the draw. (been playing with Inform 7... compiler is nice, language is bunk.)

However, looking in S9...
The Colonial Cruiser, Kinunir Class, in S9 mounts a factor 1 BGG.
The Atlantic Class Heavy Cruiser, class finished in 1050, does not mount BGGs, but an upgrade is rumored to include same.
The Kokirrak Dreadnaught mounts a factor 4... when it mounts one.

The various versions of the Kinunir all show factor 1's... imperial made.

I think the about 800 kokirraks probably represent almost half the deployed force... and the 1072 planning (because it's going to take a year or two draft the plans, convince the comittees, and get the funding)... and this pushes the timeline back...

The Kokirraks probably are up the majority, due to mishandling, power mismatches, etc... and 1070 is when the first TL15 BGG's come off the line...

They remain essentially hand-built until about 1104... when they finally get approved for industrial less-than-uber-secure-employee production.

Say, Hans, When did the 3I "officially" hit TL15?
 
When did the 3I "officially" hit TL15?


Wil,

IIRC, the date Hans usually quotes is 1000.

Your timeline for the refits using cache globes, production of 1st gen Imperial globes, and the "maturation" of the Factor-1 device works for me. So the Knorbes Cache gets uncovered sometime between 1060 and 1065?

I really like the idea of the Imperium-wide Kokirrak refit using up most of the cache. Slapping a piece of bleeding edge technology into an otherwise semi-obsolescent warships in order to extend their service life has many Real World parallels. Look at how USAF has constantly reinvented the B-52s' job for nearly fifty years or how the USN refitted Albany-class heavy cruisers with Talos missile systems in the 50s.

The Imperium got another forty years or so out of the Kokirraks thanks to those factor-4 globes, but now that the Ancient devices have begun to break down, most likely due to improper use, the old dreadnoughts are being scrapped, given to client states, or seconded to the IISS.


Regards,
Bill

P.S. I am a moron sometimes. I just noticed the Kokirrak blurb flatly states the ships were "designed and constructed" to mount black globes. If we put the discovery of the cache in the 1060s, the Imperium is designating as "obsolete" and scrapping ships that are only forty years old just prior to the 5th Frontier War. That's a rather short life time for an IN warship. Either the Kokirraks are "old and obsolete" because their globes have failed or the Imperium built them well before the middle of the 11th century.

Let's say the cache is discovered around 1000, the initial finagling including that researcher's bisection takes place within 5 years, the Kokirraks are designed to take advantage of the cache soon afterward and slipped into the budget and production schedule along with the rest of the post-Rim War refits. The Kokirraks fly for the next several decades and only after the turn of the new century do they begin to leave service due to globe failures. Meanwhile, operational data from the Kokirrak globes combined with painstaking research allows the 1st gen globes to be produced late in the 1060s with the Kinunir construction and AHL refits to follow on schedule.

Does that work?
 
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The Force Field table, page 25 of High Guard, shows black globes factors 1 through 4 (the table actually says "code" instead of "factor") available at TL15, factors 5 through 7 at TL16, factor 8 at TL17, and factor 9 at TL18.
 
Wil,

IIRC, the date Hans usually quotes is 1000.

Your timeline for the refits using cache globes, production of 1st gen Imperial globes, and the "maturation" of the Factor-1 device works for me. So the Knorbes Cache gets uncovered sometime between 1060 and 1065?

I really like the idea of the Imperium-wide Kokirrak refit using up most of the cache. Slapping a piece of bleeding edge technology into an otherwise semi-obsolescent warships in order to extend their service life has many Real World parallels. Look at how USAF has constantly reinvented the B-52s' job for nearly fifty years or how the USN refitted Albany-class heavy cruisers with Talos missile systems in the 50s.

The Imperium got another forty years or so out of the Kokirraks thanks to those factor-4 globes, but now that the Ancient devices have begun to break down, most likely due to improper use, the old dreadnoughts are being scrapped, given to client states, or seconded to the IISS.


Regards,
Bill

P.S. I am a moron sometimes. I just noticed the Kokirrak blurb flatly states the ships were "designed and constructed" to mount black globes. If we put the discovery of the cache in the 1060s, the Imperium is designating as "obsolete" and scrapping ships that are only forty years old just prior to the 5th Frontier War. That's a rather short life time for an IN warship. Either the Kokirraks are "old and obsolete" because their globes have failed or the Imperium built them well before the middle of the 11th century.

Let's say the cache is discovered around 1000, the initial finagling including that researcher's bisection takes place within 5 years, the Kokirraks are designed to take advantage of the cache soon afterward and slipped into the budget and production schedule along with the rest of the post-Rim War refits. The Kokirraks fly for the next several decades and only after the turn of the new century do they begin to leave service due to globe failures. Meanwhile, operational data from the Kokirrak globes combined with painstaking research allows the 1st gen globes to be produced late in the 1060s with the Kinunir construction and AHL refits to follow on schedule.

Does that work?

I'd say the 1000 date is more likely for the Knorbes find... maybe late 900's, like 980-999... followed promptly by the Kokirraks implementing as soon as they discovered how to expand the globe to larger than the ship.

Somewhere around 1060, someone manages to build one... then a second... the navy orders 25... as a test... and builds a "frontier cruiser" as a financial dodge; the money boys are not told the tonnage; approvals hit arount 1073. They go into service, in 1077, and it's realized they are inferior to the old ones... and the project is shelved... but the old found ones still in service made a dent in the 4FW... and it gets picked back up, and pushed for more for the impending 5FW.... with a line finally starting serious production around 1103....
 
I'd say the 1000 date is more likely for the Knorbes find... maybe late 900's, like 980-999... followed promptly by the Kokirraks implementing as soon as they discovered how to expand the globe to larger than the ship.
100+ years is longer than I expect most battleship classes to last. I'd say 60 years would be more like it. I do have an agenda here, I confess, having done a LOT of work on a writeup of Knorbes that has it being interdicted in 910 and the interdict lifted again in 1000. So any date for the finding of the cache before 1000 would be inconvenient for me, and it wouldn't hurt if it took the Scouts a few years to find the Ancients site. But note that the IN begins phasing out the AHLs in earnest in 1048, about 54 years after they were first built. I suggest that the Kokirraks be built somewhere in the 1040s, say first flight in (<die roll>) 1044. That would put the discovery of the cache somewhere in the previous decade, I think.

This still means it take the scientists over 30 years to reverse-engineer the globes...


Hans
 
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