When were Black Globes found?

[aramis]

Well, consider this: there are classes detailed in S9 as having first flight in 1020 and 1030... and the Kokirrak is said to be one of the oldest in service but gives no date. ANd the kokirrak would be the match for the 4 batrons in 5FW.

I figure 50 years to figure out a TL18 globe and make a TL15 one sounds better, and at least a decade to even interface with it. I have to wonder how many were used for bombardment tests, too... turn on with sticks and let drop as the globe guts the cables and sticks...

The paranoia after someone gets cut cleanly in half.... it should have been months of video analysis before the next one was touched.

 

[rancke]

Well, consider this: there are classes detailed in S9 as having first flight in 1020 and 1030... and the Kokirrak is said to be one of the oldest in service but gives no date.

None of the classes that have first flight mentioned are dreadnaughts, and the Kokirraks are just "one of the older classes of dreadnaughts in Imperial service" (emphasis mine), which doesn't imply "the oldest", nor tells us how many other dreadnaught classes there are in all.

The Atlantic class is "fast approaching obsolescence" and one third of them have already been lost, mothballed, condemned, or transferred out of the service. That's after 85 years. And who's to say dreadnaughts are kept as long as cruisers? They are, after all, meant to bear the brunt of enemy assaults.

Still, I suppose 80 years is as plausible as 60, or maybe even a little more plausible. So, first flight 1024? Or maybe we split the difference and make it 1034?

And the Kokirrak would be the match for the 4 batrons in 5FW.

There are another four batrons with the same stats but without black globes in the countermix?


Hans

 

[aramis]

Still, I suppose 80 years is as plausible as 60, or maybe even a little more plausible. So, first flight 1024? Or maybe we split the difference and make it 1034?


There are another four batrons with the same stats but without black globes in the countermix?


Hans

I was thinking 1030 myself; wet naval battleships have had 50 year lifespans, Traveller adding 30 years to that.... (The 1991 decommissioning, over the admirals wishes, of the BB New Jersey, commissioned in 1942, still afloat no less... albeit with a 10 year mothballing in the middle...)

as for the squadrons, S9 lists home ports for 4 batrons of Kokirraks in the marches.

 

[robject]

So to sum up y'all's research so far:

1020 Discovery. A cache of "more than 2,000" ancient Factor-4 black globe generators are discovered on Knorbes (A12 pp14-15), followed promptly by the Kokirrak class being designed to take advantage of the cache (S9 pp19,32,42). Kokirrak development is slipped into the budget and production schedule along with post-Rim War refits et al. Perhaps half of these black globes are still functional (S9 p42); thus, 300,000 years is a rough shelf-half-life for the technology.

1030 First Flight. All Kokirraks receive one of these BGGs -- approximately 800 ships (5FW p19). The Kokirraks fly for the next several decades and begin to leave service after the turn of the new century due to globe failures (S9, p??). By 1100 or so, 50% of them have operational BGGs.

1060 TL14 Prototypes. Operational data from the Kokirrak globes combines with painstaking research; somewhere around 1060, someone manages to build an experimental Factor-1 (??ref??), then a second... The navy orders 25 prototypes as a test, and designs the Kinunir-class "frontier cruisers" as a financial dodge; the money boys are not told the tonnage.

1070 TL14 Deployment. Approvals for the frontier cruiser hit around 1073 (A1). They go into service in 1077 (A1), when they realize that the new BGGs are inferior to the old ones, and the project is shelved (S5 p3).

1103 TL15 Reboot. The old BGGs from the cache which are still in service made a dent in the 4FW, so the project gets picked back up, and pushed for more for the impending 5FW, with a line finally starting serious production around 1103. Thus, a shortage of BGGs for the Lightning-class cruisers is relieved by 1104 (S5 p3).

 

[Whipsnade]

So to sum up y'all's research so far: (ka-snippo)

Robject,

Looks good to me with the exception of this:

... 50% of the Kokirraks receive one of these BGGs...

S:9 states the Kokirraks were "designed and constructed" to mount black globes. IMHO, that means they all had initially had one. The later blurb about 50% of the class having operational globes circa 1104(?) pins the blame on "failures" and a lack of "replacements", which also suggests they all had one and suggests they all had one of the Ancient relic globes.

As for the number of Kokirraks Imperium-wide, I would think that the 4 black globe squadrons in the Marches is the exception, not the rule. The Marches are an "active" border, much like the Solomani border, Corridor, and maybe Gateway. I would think that "active" border sectors will get the 4 squadron, 24 to 32 Kokirrak deployment while other sectors, other than Core, receive fewer. All that means that we're looking at ~800 Kokirraks initially constructed and currently (1104) ~1104 Kokis with operational globes.

1070 TL14 Deployment. Approvals for the frontier cruiser hit around 1073 (??ref??). They go into service in 1077 (??ref??), when they realize that the new BGGs are inferior to the old ones, and the project is shelved (S5 p3).

Wil's dates come straight from A:1 Kinunir. The first vessels were laid down in 1074 and flew in '77, so a '73 approval date is logical.


Regards,
Bill

 

[aramis]

Rob:
1060 would be TL15 prototypes, not TL14; Kokis are TL15 out the gate.

But you've also blended in my suppositions (approval date, reasons for restart) into your timeline.

 

[rancke]

as for the squadrons, S9 lists home ports for 4 batrons of Kokirraks in the marches.

Yes, but the countermix includes reinforcements from Deneb and Corridor. Which either means that all four Ks in the Marches have functioning BGGs (perfectly possible) AND that no Ks in Deneb and Corridor are sent as reinfocements (or at least that they're not included in the countermix).

I suppose it's the best assumption we can make.


Hans

 

[rancke]

1020 Discovery. A cache of "more than 2,000" ancient Factor-4 black globe generators are discovered on Knorbes (A12 pp14-15), followed promptly by the Kokirrak class being designed to take advantage of the cache (S9 pp19,32,42). Kokirrak development is slipped into the budget and production schedule along with post-Rim War refits et al. Perhaps half of these black globes are still functional (S9 p42); thus, 300,000 years is a rough shelf-half-life for the technology.

The 50% non-functioning rate would seem to be a result of failure during service. I don't see why any of them should have been non-functioning from the start? Why mount a BGG that isn't working?

I think the failure rate is due to maintenance problems (not realigning the phlebotium nodes every ten years). Ancient devices usually work even after 300,000 years.

1030 First Flight. 50% of the Kokirraks receive one of these BGGs, or approximately 800 ships (S9, p??; this dovetails nicely with the mention of half of the BGGs being nonfunctional; also see 5FW p19). The Kokirraks fly for the next several decades and begin to leave service after the turn of the new century due to globe failures (S9, p??).

No, Kokkiraks without BGGs but otherwise sound are kept in service. Phasing them out is a result of the ships growing old and obsolete.

Something that puzzles me is that the Ancient BGGs are only factor 4. Sure, factor 4 is the best you can do at TL15, but Grandfather's Own Brand would be TL25 or 35 or something like that.

The Ancient generators are a lot smaller. From the description they take up 2T, only 8% of what a TL15 factor 4 generator takes up. Is that enough to account for a difference of 10 or 20 tech levels? Maybe it is.

One thing is certain, if the Kokirraks are designed to mount a 2T generator, it's going to be difficult to refit them with a 25T version.


Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

Hans,

That question can be easily resolved. The counters will be designated as either starting on-board and thus Marches assets or as reinforcements and thus from Deneb/Corridor.

I don't have the Games Reprint, but someone else should.

Even if the BGG squadrons arrive as reinforcements, I still firmly believe we can plausibly assume they are the Kokirraks. As the BGGs originally mounted in the vessels of that class breakdown, those ships with operational globes will be grouped together. Given the advantages BGGs give those squadrons in combat and other operations, stationing those still BGG-capable squadrons where they can intervene in as many potential conflicts as possible makes a great deal of sense. So, having a BBG-armed "swing force" stationed in Corridor is very plausible.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

I think the failure rate is due to maintenance problems...

Hans,

Either that or the Imperium is using them somewhat incorrectly. The relic globe generators might require an extremely narrow range of energy inputs and control signals. The Imperium has managed to get the relic generators working after a fashion, but it really isn't operating, controlling, and powering them exactly as designed.

Think of a radio receiver . I can tune it to pick up a signal which, while still intelligible, is also full of static. I can also tune the receiver properly and pick up the signal cleanly. I believe the Imperium isn't - indeed cannot - use it's relic globe generators "cleanly".

Ancient devices usually work even after 300,000 years.

Which is one reason why I believe the generator failures are more due to operational problems than maintenance issues.

Something that puzzles me is that the Ancient BGGs are only factor 4. Sure, factor 4 is the best you can do at TL15, but Grandfather's Own Brand would be TL25 or 35 or something like that.

And that's the other reason why I believe the Imperium cannot operate it's relic globes "cleanly".

No, Kokkiraks without BGGs but otherwise sound are kept in service. Phasing them out is a result of the ships growing old and obsolete.

While I agree that the failure of the mounted generator won't be the only determining factor, said failure may very well be part of the "equation" determining whether a specific Koki is old or obsolete. To put it another way, while all Kokis phased out of service have failed generators, but not every Koki with a failed generator has been phased out of service.

One thing is certain, if the Kokirraks are designed to mount a 2T generator, it's going to be difficult to refit them with a 25T version.

Again, it depends. We're told the Kinunirs mount their globes in their Port Drive Room, but we're not told where the refitted AHLs mount their globes. Given the globe's power requirements and need for either dedicated or jump capacitors, assuming the generators are located somewhere in an engineering space is wholly plausible. There are more engineering spaces aboard ships than just engine rooms however.

The Kokis boast 4,000dTons of cargo space, enough we're told to install modular habitation and double their troop capacity. Following innumerable real world examples, a portion of that cargo capacity could be set aside the construct a specialized generator compartment.


Regards,
Bill

 

[robject]

Rob:
1060 would be TL15 prototypes, not TL14; Kokis are TL15 out the gate.

OK. Does that push Imperial TL15 back?

 

[rancke]

OK. Does that push Imperial TL15 back?

No, the official date for the Imperium becoming TL15 is 1000. Presumably that means the Imperium reached some level of saturation with TL15 ships at approximately that date, so the first TL15 technology is probably from somewhat earlier still (Cp. the Imperium which is still TL15 in 1115 despite the existence of asome TL16 worlds).


Hans

 

[aramis]

I don't have the Games Reprint, but someone else should.

Even if the BGG squadrons arrive as reinforcements, I still firmly believe we can plausibly assume they are the Kokirraks. As the BGGs originally mounted in the vessels of that class breakdown, those ships with operational globes will be grouped together. Given the advantages BGGs give those squadrons in combat and other operations, stationing those still BGG-capable squadrons where they can intervene in as many potential conflicts as possible makes a great deal of sense. So, having a BBG-armed "swing force" stationed in Corridor is very plausible.


Regards,
Bill

They start there. And agreed:

Hans: Ancients tech is only 22 or so... pocket universes are not on MT Ref'sCompanion p28-29, but everything else attributed to them is TL 21...

 

[Whipsnade]

They start there.

Wil,

Kokirraks they are then and thanks.

Hmmm... that means the sector has 24 to 32 Kokis with working globes and S:9 states that there is a 50% chance of any given Koki having a working globe...

Are there another four BB counters with similar stats in the counter mix? If so, we've just identified the rest of the Marches' Kokirraks.

Hans: Ancients tech is only 22 or so... pocket universes are not on MT Ref'sCompanion p28-29, but everything else attributed to them is TL 21...

I think pocket universes are a Yaskodray-only thing. When discussing their creation, A:12 has Grandfather expending his "personal energy" or some such along with other, more mundane resources during the effort.


Regards,
Bill

 

[rancke]

They start there.

Kokirraks they are then and thanks.

One problem with that is that one of them shouldn't start there. One of the four squadrons is stationed at Mora, which is outside the FFW map area.

Hmmm... that means the sector has 24 to 32 Kokis with working globes and S:9 states that there is a 50% chance of any given Koki having a working globe...

One sentence implies that the standard Kokirrak squadron has 8 Kokirraks, although it can be explained away. But as I believe that the norm for a squadron is 8 ships (plus auxiliaries)[*], I don't think it should be explained away.

[*] Smaller squadrons being the result of inadequate resources, for whatever reason (Like having half of them shot to pieces during the Rebellion).​

Are there another four BB counters with similar stats in the counter mix? If so, we've just identified the rest of the Marches' Kokirraks.

The Marches only have four Kokirrak squadrons in all, at Jewell, Regina, Rhylanor, and Mora. If they are distributed fairly evenly (which is not a given, of course), there should be about six squadrons in Deneb and eight in Corridor. Not all of them need be among those sent to reinforce the Marches, but the Corridor Response Fleet should have had a couple, at least.



Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

One problem with that is that one of them shouldn't start there. One of the four squadrons is stationed at Mora, which is outside the FFW map area.

Hans,

That's no problem whatsoever as Mora is part of the Marches. My question had to do with whether or not the BGG squadrons were Deneb/Corridor reinforcements and not whether some were "just off the map in the same sector".

One sentence implies that the standard Kokirrak squadron has 8 Kokirraks, although it can be explained away. But as I believe that the norm for a squadron is 8 ships (plus auxiliaries)[*], I don't think it should be explained away.

In the real world and even during in wartime squadrons do not always deploy at full strength. Nor is it even planned that they do so. During WW1, the battle squadrons making up the Grand Fleet, whether US or UK, regularly steamed with one dreadnought "missing" and that "missing" vessel was actually planned for within the force's structure. The fleet's regular maintenance cycle demanded this practice even before battle damage entered the picture.

The RN battle squadrons had 5 ships assigned and planned on regularly deploying with 4. The USN, facing somewhat more difficult maintenance issues thousands of miles from home, chose to assign 6 ships to their sole squadron in order that 4 would always be available.

I should think that the 57th Century Imperial Navy would face similar issues and that, even before battle damage enters the equation, squadrons assigned 8 vessels would regularly deploy with six or seven whether in wartime or not.

Smaller squadrons are not always the result of inadequate resources or damage. They are usually the result of regularly scheduled "oil changes".

The Marches only have four Kokirrak squadrons...

The Marches will have only four globe-operable Kokirrak squadrons and, because S:9 states we've a 50% chance of any encountered Koki having a working globe, there will be another four globe-inoperable Kokirrak squadrons too.


Regards,
Bill

 

[rancke]

That's no problem whatsoever as Mora is part of the Marches. My question had to do with whether or not the BGG squadrons were Deneb/Corridor reinforcements and not whether some were "just off the map in the same sector".

The problem I was referring to was the discrepancy in numbers. FS specifically states that there are four squadrons in the Spinward Marches and lists their stations. If yoo have four squadrons stationed in the area covered by the map and one stationed at Mora, how many do you have? That's right, five.

In the real world and even during in wartime squadrons do not always deploy at full strength.

Who's talking about deployment strength? I'm talking about the number of names on the list if you ask which ships are assigned to a particular squadron.

During WW1, the battle squadrons making up the Grand Fleet, whether US or UK, regularly steamed with one dreadnought "missing" and that "missing" vessel was actually planned for within the force's structure. The fleet's regular maintenance cycle demanded this practice even before battle damage entered the picture.

The practices of a star navy with 20,000 combat vessels is perhaps not exactly analogous to the practices of a wet navy with a dozen major units. But in any case the "missing" dreadnought were presumably not missing on the list when maintenance was to be paid.

The RN battle squadrons had 5 ships assigned and planned on regularly deploying with 4. The USN, facing somewhat more difficult maintenance issues thousands of miles from home, chose to assign 6 ships to their sole squadron in order that 4 would always be available.

And I'm propounding the opinion that the norm for the Imperial Navy is to assign eight ships to squadrons. A norm that may not always be afhered to, but usually is. I've said absolutely nothing about how many of those eqight might be deployed at any particular time.

Smaller squadrons are not always the result of inadequate resources or damage. They are usually the result of regularly scheduled "oil changes".

I'm told that FSotSI lists the ships in a number of different typical squadrons, and that the number of main ships are four in most (all?) cases. So I suggest that those figures are based on a navy that has been involved in heavy fighting over several years and thus not representative of pre-Rebellion, peacetime figures.

The Marches will have only four globe-operable Kokirrak squadrons and, because S:9 states we've a 50% chance of any encountered Koki having a working globe, there will be another four globe-inoperable Kokirrak squadrons too.

FS says nothing about the globe status of the four Kokirrak squadrons that are stationed in the Marches. Just because a random Kokirrak has a 50% chance of having a functioning BGG doesn't tell us anything about any specific Kokirrak. Those four particular squadrons could have 32 ships with functioning globes, or none, or any number in between. Though it would make sense for the IN to transfer ships to make either all or none of the ships in any particular squadron have functioning globes.



Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

FS specifically states...

Hans,

Now I understand why we've been talking past each other; you're using FSotSI and I'm not.

I haven't bothered with FSotSI for years. There are so many things I find questionable about that book that the broken ship stats are just the tip of the iceberg.

I'm sure something can be salvaged from it, I just haven't bothered to do so.


Regards,
Bill

 

[rancke]

Now I understand why we've been talking past each other; you're using FSotSI and I'm not.

No, I'm using Fighting Ships, the actual title of Supplement 9. I don't have FSotSI, and if I had, I'd be referring to it as FSotSI.


Hans

 

[robject]

Current Summarization

1020 Discovery. A cache of "more than 2,000" ancient Factor-4 black globe generators are discovered on Knorbes (A12 pp14-15), followed promptly by the Kokirrak class being designed to take advantage of the cache (S9 pp19,32,42). Kokirrak development is slipped into the budget and production schedule along with post-Rim War refits et al. Perhaps half of these black globes are still functional by 1107 (S9 p42); thus, 300,000 years is a rough shelf-half-life for the technology (estimated around TL18 to 21).

1030 First Flight. All Kokirraks receive one of these BGGs -- approximately 800 ships (5FW p19). The Kokirraks fly for the next several decades, with a service life extending thru the turn of the century. By 1100 or so, 50% of them have operational BGGs. (S9, p??)

1060 Prototypes. Operational data from the Kokirrak globes combines with painstaking research; somewhere around 1060, someone manages to build an experimental Factor-1, then a second... The navy orders 25 prototypes as a test, and designs the Kinunir-class "frontier cruisers" as a financial dodge; the money boys are not told the tonnage.

1070 Deployment. Approvals for the frontier cruiser hit around 1073, and they go into service in 1077 (A1). These new BGGs are inferior to the old ones, and the project is shelved (S5 p3).

1103 Second-Gen Deployment. The old BGGs from the cache which are still in service made a dent in the 4FW, so the project gets picked back up, and pushed for more for the impending 5FW, with a line finally starting serious production around 1103. Thus, a shortage of BGGs for the Lightning-class cruisers is relieved by 1104 (S5 p3).