Who has the best military in Traveller?

[Enoki]

So, in the Traveller universe whose military is:

The largest? The Imperium? Zhodani? Somebody else?

The most competent? That would include best trained, best led, best tactics, strategy, etc.?

The best equipped?

The best tactically?

The best strategically?

Who has the worst?

I’m interested to see what others think on that, because personally other than likely the largest, I doubt seriously the Third Imperium would top the list in any of those other categories.

 

[Keklas Rekobah]

Semi-canonical, IMTU...

By shear endurance and survivability, one of the greatest armies is The Knights of the Order Of the White Star; established by Empress Arbellatra in 0640, and (allegedly) disbanded in 0824 by order of Empress Paula II.

Before the 5th FW, they operated from the shadows to try to keep the threads of Imperial civilization from unraveling. During the 5th FW, they did all they could to keep things from falling apart completely. Despite being caught unaware of Dulinor’s plot against the Imperial family, they were still largely responsible for bolstering the Regency and holding things together in the Domain Of Deneb while the rest of the Imperium fragmented and fell into barbarity.

But nobody knows any of this outside the Order.

 

[Timerover51]

So, in the Traveller universe whose military is:

The largest? The Imperium? Zhodani? Somebody else?

The most competent? That would include best trained, best led, best tactics, strategy, etc.?

The best equipped?

The best tactically?

The best strategically?

Who has the worst?

I’m interested to see what others think on that, because personally other than likely the largest, I doubt seriously the Third Imperium would top the list in any of those other categories.

Given the Zhodani inability to overwhelm the Spinward Marches in several wars, clearly the Zhodani are less capable than the Imperium. As their upper level of command would be restricted to those psionically capable, that would pose a major problem. You are restricting your upper ranks to a very limited elite, whose selection has nothing to do with military capability. Clearly, the Zhodani are near the bottom.

Given the ability of the much smaller Solomani Sphere to hold out against the entire Imperium, they clearly are more capable than the Imperium. Terra was captured, but there is a large number of Solomani planets that are still independent, so the Solomani would appear to be better than the Imperium. Note, this would only apply to the Classic books.

 

[mike wightman]

I completely disagree with just about every conclusion Timerover has made.

1. Imperial 'success' during the frontier wars is due to their TL advantage, not to mention the fact that the Zhodani won the first through third frontier wars (they achieved their initial objectives in taking worlds back from the Imperium), The Zhodani intent has never been conquest of the Spinward Marches, it has been to curtail Imperial expansion. The fourth wasn't much of a war and the fifth is the first where the Imperium can claim some sort of victory in having defeated the Sword Worlds and establish the Border Worlds. Actual gains against the Zhodani - none.

2. It is the Imperium who suffers due to stuffing their upper ranks with barely competent nobles and their lickspittles. Santanocheev ring any bells? :devil:

The Zhodani have no enlistment restriction within their military based on Soc apart from the Guards, which due to their high psionic requirement which ties to Soc makes sense. Those with high Soc will get commissioned and promoted more easily due to the fact that psionics is valued so highly and psi is linked to Soc.
I wonder just how many proles join the military in the first place...

The bulk of the Zhodani Military is their Army and Navy, and note there is a major disconnect between basic character generation and the extended generation presented in the Alien Module. There is nothing to stop a militarily capable prole rising to the ranks of General or Admiral in extended.

Considering the Zhodani fight at a TL disadvantage, I would put them ahead of the Imperium.

The Solomani are on a par with the Imperium, it is only during the latter stages when the Imperium mobilised even more of their vast resources that they had success against the Solomani. The Solomani forces of the Rim war and the Imperial forces began with pretty much the same equipment, training and doctrine, the Solomani sphere having a slight advantage over any other single Imperial domain of being slightly higher in opopulation and manufacturing capability. They did lack the research that would see the Imperium advance to TL15 during the war and giving them the edge over the older Solomani equipment.

Draw.

 

[mike wightman]

So, in the Traveller universe whose military is:

The largest?

The Imperium

The most competent?

Hive Federation - possibly the Julian Protectorate.

The best equipped?

Hive Federation.

The best tactically?

Hive Federation - possibly the Julian Protectorate.

The best strategically?

Hive Federation

Who has the worst?

K'kree

The Aslan and the Vargr are difficult to categorise due to the formers' clan structure and the latters' chaos occasionally producing order.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I've argued that K'Kree "heavy infantry", in a full gallop charge, would be a force to be reckoned with.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

The CT Striker rules have rule modifications for the Major Races (Book 2 pg.39-40) Are these still accurate and do these have impact to your estimations?

 

[Tobias]

IMHO, the question is rather meaningless since all the major powers of the TU (Imperium, 2000 Worlds, Hive Federation, Zhodani Consulate, and in this sense also the Aslan Hierate and the Julian Protectorate*) are so large and powerful that no other major power could successfully conduct a war of conquest against them without incurring a cost that their societies will not and can not pay.

The Imperium certainly has the largest military force and arguably one of the most technologically advanced, but it is also the least able to conduct a protracted total war because a.) it has the least amount of social cohesion beyond the noble class and b.) it is surrounded by potential enemies who would take advantage in case the Imperium became involved in a decades-long struggle with another foe.

*The Solomani Confederation is a special case because it was until quite recently a part of the Imperium. The Rim War was in this sense more a rebellion put down - partially.

 

[nobby-w]

I've argued that K'Kree "heavy infantry", in a full gallop charge, would be a force to be reckoned with.

A VRF gauss gun would turn a charge like that into stewing steak. Perhaps marinaded with a little soy sauce, garlic and cumin.

G'naak schmaak.

Yes, I had to look up the JTAS article to see where the glottal goes.

 

[Condottiere]

Whoever gets the high ground is likely to win, except in an insurgency, where it will depend on the terrain, and on the tolerance of collateral damage.

 

[Ulsyus]

Given the Zhodani inability to overwhelm the Spinward Marches in several wars, clearly the Zhodani are less capable than the Imperium. As their upper level of command would be restricted to those psionically capable, that would pose a major problem. You are restricting your upper ranks to a very limited elite, whose selection has nothing to do with military capability. Clearly, the Zhodani are near the bottom.

Given the ability of the much smaller Solomani Sphere to hold out against the entire Imperium, they clearly are more capable than the Imperium. Terra was captured, but their is a large number of Solomani planets that are still independent, so the Solomani would appear to be better than the Imperium. Note, this would only apply to the Classic books.

Intersting points, especially after reading Mike's comments. I'm keen to see your reasoning expanded if you will.

 

[Ulsyus]

The Imperium certainly has the largest military force and arguably one of the most technologically advanced, but it is also the least able to conduct a protracted total war because a.) it has the least amount of social cohesion beyond the noble class and b.) it is surrounded by potential enemies who would take advantage in case the Imperium became involved in a decades-long struggle with another foe.

That's interesting. Would you say that despite the large quantity of forces available to it that the 3I would not be able to draw from sufficient strategic reserves that could be pushed out to the frontiers in time of need? If it did have sufficient etc, could that enable it to engage in protracted total war? Can we see the presence of those reserves in the forces that supported the balkanisation of the 3I during the rebellion?

 

[agorski]

Semi-canonical, IMTU...

By shear endurance and survivability, one of the greatest armies is The Knights of the Order Of the White Star

Semi-canonical, maybe. But I hold a patent of nobility for the Order.

 

[jcrocker]

For, say, the Solomani Rim War or Fifth Frontier War, I think the Imperial Military at the start was a different machine than the one that concluded the war. In the same way, any of the major militaries in the real-world WW2 was a very different animal at the end of the war than the start.

I think we have the most information about the Fifth Frontier War, so I'll use that as an example. Santanocheev and his "hold the line at all costs" just squandered lives and equipment, and it wasn't until Norris took over and started being flexible that there was any progress made. Both those leaders had the same TL15-14 advantage over the Zho, so just by itself that technology isn't a total game-changer.

It wasn't just industrial muscle and attrition, either. In that war, there weren't TNS reports about "fifty Tigress squadrons arrived from Capital and Vland today", most of the equipment used seems to have been from the Marches, or at least Behind the Claw. So I'd argue that most of the industrial might of the Imperium was not brought to bear. The only TNS report I found specifically talking about reserves from deep in the Imperium was talking about how elements of the Household Guard from Capital showed up too late to take part in the Battle of Rhylanor - if I missed one, I'd appreciate someone pointing it out for me.

Now, I can't see Deneb *not* sending anything, I'd expect some units from Deneb and maybe Corridor did get shifted to the front, but that's a couple of truncated sectors, not the whole of Strephon's realm.

Again, just because they're not listed doesn't mean it didn't happen - "security" and all that - but one look at a map would show that, if it was standard operating plan for the Imperium to shift masses of reserves forwards, it would be doubtful anyone would try anything against it. Just by sectors, the Imperium very roughly has a two-to-one advantage against the Zhodani, very roughly three-to-one against the Solomani but distance etc means not all of that would come into play.

The "meta" reason is that there were scripts written for the actors to give an exciting background to the game, so there's a limit on what conclusions we can mine from the existing data. But in those scripts, the Imperium came back from early setbacks in both the Rim War and the Fifth Frontier. Political decisions were made to end the wars while the Imperium had the advantage - so I'd argue they started those badly, then came from behind, and by the end of the fighting had a superior military, and didn't let over-reach ruin all of their (re)gains for them.

 

[kilemall]

I think an aspect of Zho combat capability one must count is cohesion.

They'll stick together and follow orders to the death.

That is a weakness too, if the leadership is not technically/tactically competent.

They also should have fabulous intel, and counterintelligence that is unparalleled.

The Imperium as pointed out has to defeat each opponent quickly and not get into protracted war. This also means that they can't drive home actions like the Earth invasion or 'finish the job' in a total war sense.

So the key to the Imperium is rapid force shifting and reconstituting force quickly- a 'come as you are' war while a temporary surge is generated to turn the tide or perhaps push a little before a negotiated end and avoidance of the multiple front threat.

Another weakenss to consider is that the Imperium is more like a polyglot Persian Empire then a nation, and total effort may be hard to generate.

 

[kilemall]

That's interesting. Would you say that despite the large quantity of forces available to it that the 3I would not be able to draw from sufficient strategic reserves that could be pushed out to the frontiers in time of need? If it did have sufficient etc, could that enable it to engage in protracted total war? Can we see the presence of those reserves in the forces that supported the balkanisation of the 3I during the rebellion?

I think that's what Depots are- vast fleets in mothball status ready to be reinstated and training planets to generate large forces for 4-8 year periods, and supplies to deploy them.

 

[Blue Ghost]

IMHO, the question is rather meaningless since all the major powers of the TU (Imperium, 2000 Worlds, Hive Federation, Zhodani Consulate, and in this sense also the Aslan Hierate and the Julian Protectorate*) are so large and powerful that no other major power could successfully conduct a war of conquest against them without incurring a cost that their societies will not and can not pay.

The Imperium certainly has the largest military force and arguably one of the most technologically advanced, but it is also the least able to conduct a protracted total war because a.) it has the least amount of social cohesion beyond the noble class and b.) it is surrounded by potential enemies who would take advantage in case the Imperium became involved in a decades-long struggle with another foe.

*The Solomani Confederation is a special case because it was until quite recently a part of the Imperium. The Rim War was in this sense more a rebellion put down - partially.

I don't think social cohesion is a factor. I think distance putting a strain on lines of communication and supply are the more practical factors. It's my opinion that that's why the "Rule of man" didn't last, and all the other historical stuff that kept the Imperium from being stable for so long.

 

[Blue Ghost]

A VRF gauss gun would turn a charge like that into stewing steak. Perhaps marinaded with a little soy sauce, garlic and cumin.

G'naak schmaak.

Yes, I had to look up the JTAS article to see where the glottal goes.

Well, okay, but so would your typical scout ship laser.

 

[jec10]

Based off published sources, Aslan are among the best at a tactical level - in CT/Striker and MT they all have a morale bonus over human troops and have the same tactical initiative. According to MT V&V, their high morale is shared by Vilani troops.

Solomani aren't detailed in CT/Striker, but in MT/Solomani & Aslan they're depicted as suffering from a handicap of lower ranks "just putting in their term" which results in lower morale than equivalent Imperial troops amongst recruits and line troopers.

 

[Enoki]

I think an aspect of Zho combat capability one must count is cohesion.

They'll stick together and follow orders to the death.

That is a weakness too, if the leadership is not technically/tactically competent.

They also should have fabulous intel, and counterintelligence that is unparalleled.

The Imperium as pointed out has to defeat each opponent quickly and not get into protracted war. This also means that they can't drive home actions like the Earth invasion or 'finish the job' in a total war sense.

So the key to the Imperium is rapid force shifting and reconstituting force quickly- a 'come as you are' war while a temporary surge is generated to turn the tide or perhaps push a little before a negotiated end and avoidance of the multiple front threat.

Another weakenss to consider is that the Imperium is more like a polyglot Persian Empire then a nation, and total effort may be hard to generate.

That's my thinking in part. The Zhodani are the most vicious and best military.

I'd think their leadership would be difficult or impossible to match if they were picking those who had significant telepathic, empathic, and other mental abilities that allowed their leaders to groupthink. It wouldn't matter if one or more were poor tactically on their own, as they'd simply rely on those that were competent to advise them real-time on what to do while receiving like information from the leader on the spot.

The Zhodani also have the advantage of being on a single front whereas the Imperium is surrounded on at least three sides by potentially hostile entities. The Imperium has no real tech advantage over the Zhodani either.
A further advantage is the Zhodani are far more homogenous as a culture and society than the Imperium. Their widespread use of psionics would make that a certainty.

Sure, the Aslan and Vargyr are never going to amount to much beyond a massive guerrilla war due to their social structures, but that makes them for all intents unconquerable. You'd have to invest in a huge occupation force to keep them in line.
On the flip side of that, they aren't going to mount a major war either. So, the Imperium would only have to maintain counter insurgency and anti-piracy forces along their borders with these two. Maybe a major fleet or two to back that up on occasion.
The Solomani would require serious forces, as would the Zhodani, for the Imperium to watch those borders. Worse, the Imperium is at the end of a very narrow corridor with the Zhodani.

The biggest problem for the Imperium is simply distance. It would take months for news of a conflict to get back to the leadership. It would take a year or more to send reinforcements from any distance within the empire. A J4 force would take that long crossing a sector, and J6 doesn't buy you much except the impracticability of taking much other than fuel and engines with you for a slight reduction in travel time.
So, the Imperium has to fight with what it has on the frontlines. That gets expensive in itself, maintaining large forces far from central authority. This in turn, regardless of canon, would mean most of the Imperial military would be equipped with low cost materials and technology rather than state-of-the-art. It'd mostly have to be a colonial police force rather than a top notch military simply because the later is unaffordable across the empire.

All of that would go with the "has to avoid a protracted war" scenario. The Imperium can't afford one economically or politically. They'd be forced to draw on their colonial forces which given the nature of their society with nobility ruling, would likely consist of troop loyal first to the local noble and to the Empire second. That would mean using them far from home would be very problematic.

All-in-all it points to the Imperium having a very hit and miss quality of military. There'd be an elite core of units that were very good, but the bulk of their forces would be pretty iffy in many cases often equipped well below TL 15.