Who is in command on a scout vessel?

[Whipsnade]

like Pirates!!

Ish,

Exactly.

Pirates had surprisingly formal system of written rules which regulated shipboard life, personal behavior, the distribution of supplies and other loot, expectations in combat, and even dealt with injury payments. After being read these rules, a newly recruited pirate would agree by signing or making his mark. It was those signatures and marks on the "articles" which consigned many captured pirates to the gibbet.

A pirate ship generally had two commanders. One navigated and handled in the ship in every situation except battle while the second acted "only" as a combat leader.

The system worked very well.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Andrew M]

Pirates had surprisingly formal system of written rules which regulated shipboard life, personal behavior, the distribution of supplies and other loot, expectations in combat, and even dealt with injury payments. After being read these rules, a newly recruited pirate would agree by signing or making his mark. It was those signatures and marks on the "articles" which consigned many captured pirates to the gibbet.

A pirate ship generally had two commanders. One navigated and handled in the ship in every situation except battle while the second acted "only" as a combat leader.

, but then how many pirates could read and write? Actually, I expect it was above average for the times, mainly because the navigator had to be. It does imply that there was a class division even among outlaws.

I would expect the degree to which chain of command matters depends on the size of the crew, and the need for instant executive decisions. I expect that the most common emergencies will be rehearsed. Possibly, team building ban be encouraged by engineering competition between small groups. There will inevitably be a person in charge though, just as there is in most civilian organizations. They just won't be able to rely so much on their crewmates' obedience. Mind you, I don't know how relaxed can get in practice, when the work is more technical than tactical.

 

[rancke]

Where you have a crew of a navy ship, which member of the crew is in command, the captain or the admiral? Answer: The captain. The admiral is not a member of the crew.

By analogy, a mission commander who is not also captain of the ship is not in command of the crew.


Hans

 

[Ishmael]

Pirates had surprisingly formal system of written rules which regulated shipboard life, personal behavior, the distribution of supplies and other loot, expectations in combat, and even dealt with injury payments.

For those who'd like to see some of those written rules.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_code

The admiral is not a member of the crew, but he is a part of the chain of command. The captain is beneath him in the chain of command. The captain disobeys a legal command at his peril.

 

[Whipsnade]

... but then how many pirates could read and write?

Andrew,

When you re-read my post, and let me suggest that you do so, you'll notice I wrote that new recruits were read the articles and then either signed them or made their mark.

When you consider the times they operated in, pirates crews were remarkably egalitarian societies.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

The admiral is not a member of the crew, but he is a part of the chain of command. The captain is beneath him in the chain of command. The captain disobeys a legal command at his peril.

Ish,

Precisely, and that's a point whose subtlety is often missed by folks who've never served in the military or other similar organizations.

An admiral will tell then captain what he wants done in general terms and the captain will then direct his crew to achieve that end. There's a chain of command at work here and it's members do not "jump" the chain either upwards or downwards without very good cause.

The admiral will announce to his entire command that We will begin the previously discussed tactical exercise at 0400 hours tomorrow, the captain of the ship on which the admiral is currently embarked will make the orders that get his ship ready for that exercise, and neither will personally order the midwatch drive lackey to bring #2 feed pump set to full operation for high power maneuvering because there are other members of the chain of command who handle that detail.

It's all a matter of which set of details each layer of command needs to deal with.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Andrew M]

Andrew,

When you re-read my post, and let me suggest that you do so, you'll notice I wrote that new recruits were read the articles and then either signed them or made their mark.

When you consider the times they operated in, pirates crews were remarkably egalitarian societies.


Regards,
Bill

Yes I read what you wrote. From what I know about this, ship captains were definitely in charge at the sufference of their crew. The relience on a written contract still implies that there was a degree of orchestration from the literate classes. Certainly the navigator would have to be educated. The captain may have been illiterate, although I suspect this would be rare. That said, I agree that pirate ships were far more egalitarian than English societies.

 

[rancke]

The admiral is not a member of the crew, but he is a part of the chain of command. The captain is beneath him in the chain of command. The captain disobeys a legal command at his peril.

I know that. It still doesn't make the admiral the member of the crew who is in charge of the ship. By analogy (which may be flawed; the Scouts may do things differently, but we don't know that[*]), if the mission commander is not the commander of the ship then he is not the member of the crew who is in charge of the ship.

[*] Or perhaps we do; I haven't read all the writeups of the Scouts thoroughly. If so, please provide quotes.​

Hans

 

[Major B]

When the ship is question is part of a larger organization, the person in command is whomever the Powers That Be of that organization designate is in command. The Powers That Be will also designate a "chain of command", or a system to determine the chain of command, to handle situations when the commander is incapacitated.

'no ranks' != 'no chain of command'

I can't guess at the intent of the original author but my take on scouts has always been that they don't have ranks, but that doesn't mean they have no heirarchy.

Members are appointed to positions and over time will rotate to others. The positions (whether on a vessel or dirtside) will have an organizational heirarchy and individuals who perform well will be 'promoted' to positions with greater responsibility.

So there will be a vessel commander. The other crew may address him by his first name, but he is in charge and has whatever authorities the overall organization has seen fit to vest in him. The exact chain of command may not be as clear-cut as in the Navy, but there will at least be some semblance according to the organization's heirarchy.

Again, just my take.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

See? This is why Scouts keep getting killed!

 

[Ishmael]

imagine the look on a player's face when you have an older npc scout character walk up and take command of the player's detached scout ship

if all it takes is seniority, then it could happen...

 

[travlar]

Probably not, actually, I'd think that detatched duty would be a special case. It'd be funny anyway, though. But I'd assume that under normal situations whoever the detatched duty scout vessel is attached to is completely in charge of it, and that even when the ship is assigned on a mission, the scout it's attached to wiould still command the ship, even if a scout is assigned to cammand him. But that's just my take.

 

[Ishmael]

I was just showing a silly example of why seniority alone wouldn't cut it.

Like it or not, there is a chain of command, just as there is for all organizations, and that means ranks.
Book 6 and MT advanced chargen have named ranks for the IISS.
Book 6's rank structure separates labor from management, where management positions are higher and labor forms the people who do the grunt work in the field.
There should also be a way of demonstrating rank to others, even if its only through an official form of ID.

Book 6 also has a basic organizational chart show the relationship between the different branches/offices.

Chain of command must be followed ( unless the situation is dire enough for someone to willingly risk court martial should he make wrong choices ).

An O-8 from the Communications branch can't take a detached E-7 scout's ship without first following the chain of command to the Detached Duty branch and getting authorization. If the authorization is given, the detached scout must give up his ship or face very serious charges because the detached scout is in the Detached Duty Office's chain of command and they're the ones that took the ship away.

 

[PFVA63]

Hi

See? This is why Scouts keep getting killed!

Ugh, I hope that doesn't mean that they do one of those Klingon type things where you can take over if you kill he guy in charge.

Regards

PF

 

[Whipsnade]

imagine the look on a player's face when you have an older npc scout character walk up and take command of the player's detached scout ship if all it takes is seniority, then it could happen...

Ish,

Actually, that's not a silly example. That's the beginning of an adventure.

We know detached duty scouts and their loaned scout/couriers are subject to a call up; there's a JTAS/TNS snippet which explicitly mentions that occurring when the Fifth Frontier War kicks off. So an active scout with the proper authorizations could very well walk up to a player and commandeer both the player and their detached duty scout/courier.

As you correctly note, seniority isn't even part of the equation. Authorization from the organization in question is the only concern.


Regards,
Bill

 

[sabredog]

Ish,

Actually, that's not a silly example. That's the beginning of an adventure.

We know detached duty scouts and their loaned scout/couriers are subject to a call up; there's a JTAS/TNS snippet which explicitly mentions that occurring when the Fifth Frontier War kicks off. So an active scout with the proper authorizations could very well walk up to a player and commandeer both the player and their detached duty scout/courier.

As you correctly note, seniority isn't even part of the equation. Authorization from the organization in question is the only concern.


Regards,
Bill

I "drafted" some players that way once upon a game. They put in to a scout base for that free fuel and tune-up and as they were ready to go a courier comes running up and says they have to wait for a delivery.

5 minutes later a senior Scout comes up and tells them he has orders to commandeer this vessel, per the reactivation clause of the detached duty contract ("Old Scouts never retire, they just hope to stay away! Haw haw" - horse laugh) and is now in command of the ship until the mission is over.

The players had their mouths open for about the time if took 4 horseflies to go in and out, then frantically scanned Book 1 to see if that could happen. Then Book 2. Then they howled and gave in to their fate: off on another wild-eyed adventure of mayhem, laser blasts, and heroism nobody will ever know about.

The NPC was amusing enough - loud horse laugh, bad jokes, and not really a very good scout - they finally figured out he was a Naval Intel agent who needed a cover for some skulking about on a secret mission. When the players saw him come running back to the ship at the leading edge of a running gun battle they asked him, "Hey, you're not really a Scout are you?" He returned some shots and said, "Naw, I'm a spy. But it's more fun that way don't you think? Now be good enough to grab some guns and help out here, will you?" (As bad guy troops in heavy armor come thundering across the tarmac.....)

Oh, the looks I got - I'm still scarred form the burns.

 

[Easterner9504]

Om my ship...ANARCHY REIGNS! Whoever gives competent commands leads.

 

[jatay3]

I know that. It still doesn't make the admiral the member of the crew who is in charge of the ship. By analogy (which may be flawed; the Scouts may do things differently, but we don't know that[*]), if the mission commander is not the commander of the ship then he is not the member of the crew who is in charge of the ship.

[*] Or perhaps we do; I haven't read all the writeups of the Scouts thoroughly. If so, please provide quotes.​

Hans

Admirals are there because warships tend to sail in groups.

 

[Supplement Four]

I just came across a partial answer in the "World Builder's Handbook" under the specifications for the "Donosev" class survey starship (page 49).

Does it say anything about this in the IISS article in the JTAS?

 

[kafka47]

Scouts, for me (IMTU), epitomize the self-managing Team that was so glorified in 1990s. In the field they cooperate pool their skills and let the one with most skills in a particular field be the project leader. So in the case of piloting, it is the pilot. Certain operations are mundane. And, look to the one with the highest skill to lead the operation. So, Scouts are extremely flexible because each one can be a leader but that creates for chaos when integrated with either the Bureaucracy (which does have formalized ranks and accounting structures) or other parts of the Imperial Services.

Which is why the Scout in PC party is both valuable but also the most trouble unless in the company of other Scouts. Generating the backstory for characters and parties until MgT came around. So integrating the Scout into a bunch of merchants or other ex-military always makes for interesting role playing.