Who is in command on a scout vessel?

[whulorigan]

Remember that according to CT: Book 6 - Scouts:

The Operations Office is responsible for the activities of the Service in the establishment, maintenance, and operation of its bases and fleets. It is divided into Maintenance, Security, Bases, and Scout Fleet branches.
...

The Scout Fleet consists of all of the vessels used by the Scout Service. Because the operation of space vessels requires a great deal of supervision, training, and control, the Scout Fleet is organized similar to a naval unit. Vessels used in the Field (for exploration or communications, for example) belong to the Scout Fleet, even if operated by individuals not specifically assigned to that office. The Scout Fleet supports the Communications Office and Exploration Office activities, and provides ships (as well as some personnel to crew them) to those offices.

The Operations Office (and hence the Scout Fleet Branch) are part of the Bureaucracy, and hence have administrative rank, if nothing else. It is likely that Scout Fleet personnel that crew ships (as noted above) probably have "crew rank" titles and supervisory positions that are assigned based on both their administrative rank and function aboard the ship.

 

[kilemall]

Remember that according to CT: Book 6 - Scouts:
The Operations Office (and hence the Scout Fleet Branch) are part of the Bureaucracy, and hence have administrative rank, if nothing else. It is likely that Scout Fleet personnel that crew ships (as noted above) probably have "crew rank" titles and supervisory positions that are assigned based on both their administrative rank and function aboard the ship.

That's helmsman and engineer, not necessarily 'captain'.

 

[whulorigan]

That's helmsman and engineer, not necessarily 'captain'.

The Captain/Commander of a Scout Cruiser will have the highest Scout Fleet Branch Administrative Rank (probably IS-15 (O6)/Scout Commander).

 

[kilemall]

The Captain/Commander of a Scout Cruiser will have the highest Scout Fleet Branch Administrative Rank (probably IS-15 (O6)/Scout Commander).

I dunno that I buy this, that branch's function strikes me as more support, logistical, purchase and maintenance then operational control.


But even if that is the case for say a major asset like the Scout AHLs being equivalent to commanding a small base, doesn't cover the command situation for the ACS level assets, easily 95% of the ships in play.

 

[whulorigan]

I dunno that I buy this, that branch's function strikes me as more support, logistical, purchase and maintenance then operational control.

Recall the statement I quoted above from Book 6:

The Scout Fleet supports the Communications Office and Exploration Office activities, and provides ships (as well as some personnel to crew them) to those offices.

These "personnel" would likely be the supervising officers from Fleet Branch. A ship of BCS size cannot just function by mutual agreement and initiative. Recall also that Field Scouts have "courtesy rank" with respect to the bureaucracy rank structure at [Rank-level] = [# of terms served].

But even if that is the case for say a major asset like the Scout AHLs being equivalent to commanding a small base, doesn't cover the command situation for the ACS level assets, easily 95% of the ships in play.

I am making the above statement specifically in regards to large assets. Small (ACS-level) assets would likely be crewed entirely by unranked field-personnel, with any necessary positions of authority specifically defined prior to the mission based on seniority and/or ability.

 

[Ullarsskald1957]

I've always simplified it as the Pilot being in command, especially if it is a vessel on detached service granted to a retired Scout.

 

[boomslang]

Small (ACS-level) assets would likely be crewed entirely by unranked field-personnel, with any necessary positions of authority specifically defined prior to the mission based on seniority and/or ability.

This is pretty much how I approach it. On a small ship, absent any administrative personnel, raw seniority is most likely the determining factor for chain-of-command.

Frankly, basing decision-making authority entirely upon seniority can be a fairly stupid way to do things, but it is also very simple to understand and implement; I reckon this therefore makes such a policy both plausible and realistic.

 

[Condottiere]

The Bureaucracy defines the field chain of command, the field commander could then redefine that, especially once out in the field.

Probably then has to write a report justifying his actions, which I suspect most Scouts would feel is a waste of their time, so nothing is changed unless circumstances dictate, or more likely, they find a runaround.

 

[MThompson016]

It depends on the mission.

Small scale groups, the ship commander will also wear the hat of mission commander. Large scale, you may have a mission commander, a ship commander and an element commander for ground operations.

Also, I see field Scouts as being a flexible organization culturally. They can do a specialized job, assist in most, and can step into another when needed. But when it's time to work, the group pitches in, and falls in place.

 

[Timerover51]

It depends on the mission.

Small scale groups, the ship commander will also wear the hat of mission commander. Large scale, you may have a mission commander, a ship commander and an element commander for ground operations.

Also, I see field Scouts as being a flexible organization culturally. They can do a specialized job, assist in most, and can step into another when needed. But when it's time to work, the group pitches in, and falls in place.

Put your players in a crisis situation with a 5 minute timer before dying and watch what happens. This "no rank in the Scouts" is not going to work. And keep to the 5 minute to dying. No settlement as to whose in charge in 5 minutes, all die.

 

[MThompson016]

You're going overboard from what I said, and went for a challenge that few player groups would try. As I see it, Mission Commanders are assigned before the mission leaves, and some times, a highly skilled junior scout ends up as the Mission Commander.

There's no official rank for a field commander, but the Scout who leads a lot of successful missions will end up as Mission Commander more often than not, but outside of a specialty, may end up in a subordinate position as well. The outbound leg of a mission would end up with a lot of getting used to working together exercises if it's a scratch crew. Keeping teams together for a period means they know each other and can get those quick challenges done.

The frequency Scouts get Jack of all Trades in many versions, lends me to see them as filling in on assignments out of their official role. As an example, a Scout may be the Cutter Pilot on the org chart for the mission, but fills in as a molecular biology lab tech or basic survey assistant to get the job done.

 

[Tiikeri]

This doesnt seem like a complicated question to me. Wasnt there a period where the chinese peoples liberation army abolished ranks and went by position only?

Consider, theres no ranks in a business, but everybody can see who is in charge of what looking at the organizational chart. The ceo sets that up, and the ceo is hired by the board of directors, who are elected by the shareholders who are the people who put up the money.

Considr a construction site. There arent any ranks but everyone knows who the project manager is, who the foreman is, and who the workers are, because thise people are hired for thise pisitions in the basis of their qualifications and experience. Everyone knows that the project manager has the authority to tell everybody what to do and provide the plan to the foreman, and the foreman tells people what to do to get the job done.

So, scouts

A scoutship has a crew of what, 5 people? Scout admin in charge of assigning crew members would assign crew positions according to candidates' skills and experience. It would probably be pilot or co pilot since he has an assistant, allowing him to do commander things instead of his primary piloting job all the time. Admin would tell a new crew the first day, this guy has been selectex for command, after him its you, then you, then you, and so on. There would never be any uncertainty.

With player characters, all bets are off. Nobody can make anybody do anything, and they'll happily kill each other, and never roleplay with enough depth to make their characters worry about pesky little things like consequences. So everything becomes a non binding mob democracy. No one is in charge. Or maybe its a feudal technocracy on the interpersonal level.

Im the pilot, so were going where i want!

Oh yeah?? Well im the engineer, and ill turn off the drives!

Im the gunner, so im going play xbox and drink mountain dew until you two cretins figure this out.

Im the navigator, so whatever you say ill just set the jump tape 8 track to wherever i want to go!

...a few jumps later...

Im the ex commando, so i gun down the engineer and the pilot on our way back to the ship. Its all you navigator. Tee hee!

Im the gunner so i finish my mountain dew and vaporize the commando with the ships lasers. Its all you navigator. Lets report back and take all the credit for another successful mission.

 

[Timerover51]

You're going overboard from what I said, and went for a challenge that few player groups would try. As I see it, Mission Commanders are assigned before the mission leaves, and some times, a highly skilled junior scout ends up as the Mission Commander.

There's no official rank for a field commander, but the Scout who leads a lot of successful missions will end up as Mission Commander more often than not, but outside of a specialty, may end up in a subordinate position as well. The outbound leg of a mission would end up with a lot of getting used to working together exercises if it's a scratch crew. Keeping teams together for a period means they know each other and can get those quick challenges done.

The frequency Scouts get Jack of all Trades in many versions, lends me to see them as filling in on assignments out of their official role. As an example, a Scout may be the Cutter Pilot on the org chart for the mission, but fills in as a molecular biology lab tech or basic survey assistant to get the job done.

Your profile says that you are a sailor. Have you ever served on a ship where the captain changed with every voyage?

 

[Condottiere]

Going by Weber, the ship's Captain is the right hand of God.

A diplomacy focussed mission will have likely an experienced diplomat as chef de mission.

The scout cruiser is a vehicle to accomplish that mission, and is likely to have a separate Master and Commander.

 

[kilemall]

Your profile says that you are a sailor. Have you ever served on a ship where the captain changed with every voyage?

Airplanes are exactly that. So are trains.

 

[kilemall]

You're going overboard from what I said, and went for a challenge that few player groups would try. As I see it, Mission Commanders are assigned before the mission leaves, and some times, a highly skilled junior scout ends up as the Mission Commander.

There's no official rank for a field commander, but the Scout who leads a lot of successful missions will end up as Mission Commander more often than not, but outside of a specialty, may end up in a subordinate position as well. The outbound leg of a mission would end up with a lot of getting used to working together exercises if it's a scratch crew. Keeping teams together for a period means they know each other and can get those quick challenges done.

The frequency Scouts get Jack of all Trades in many versions, lends me to see them as filling in on assignments out of their official role. As an example, a Scout may be the Cutter Pilot on the org chart for the mission, but fills in as a molecular biology lab tech or basic survey assistant to get the job done.

Zactly, Scouts are a get-er-done organization that is about shoestring resources and ingenuity and not-by-the-book situations and solutions.

 

[BwapTED]

Airplanes are exactly that. So are trains.

Excellent examples.


Another way to look at it is civilian academic/scientific research projects in the field.
The aforementioned factors of seniority and expertise/specialization will be major factors in organizing the team. Office/faculty politics may also come into it.

There may well be two men 'in charge' on most Scout missions: the pilot heading ship operations and the team leader overseeing the scientific or other mission.Regulations and mission-specific directives settle conflicts between the two.

 

[Timerover51]

I will drop the discussion, as we seem to be talking past each other. I will simply run the Scouts my way, and as usual, am odd man out.

 

[kilemall]

Excellent examples.


Another way to look at it is civilian academic/scientific research projects in the field.
The aforementioned factors of seniority and expertise/specialization will be major factors in organizing the team. Office/faculty politics may also come into it.

There may well be two men 'in charge' on most Scout missions: the pilot heading ship operations and the team leader overseeing the scientific or other mission.Regulations and mission-specific directives settle conflicts between the two.

Probably the best RL example we can use is NASA.


Not a military service per se although of course most of the pilots end up being service, but there definitely is a Mission Commander and a mission chain, but it's per mission, and meantime there is this whole hierarchical organization that runs the huge basing/building/repair infrastructure and determines mission and crew composition.


The no permanent rank and JoATy ways of the operational personnel is definitely NOT a NASA thing, but could be if there is no mission control and the crew has to solve things and get back without major support or rescue. An institutional thing created for the realities of jump exploration and missions.


If you want to get all OTU about it, I don't see the Vilani building their scouts this way, very much a Terran sort of culture or strictly 3I Sylean cleverness thing. But I like the mechanic enough to import it whole hog into my Near Future TC.



OoooOOooh, this wiki is gold for our purposes here-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronaut_ranks_and_positions


Backs up my contention that the pilot is not necessarily the mission commander, especially since most LBB6 operational people and all LBB1 ones will be pilots anyway.

 

[mike wightman]

And therin lieth the rub.

The scouts as presented in LBB1 are a civilian exploration service, filled with seat of their pants individuals that take crazy risks, or are they?

Scouts: Members of the exploratory service. Scouts explore new areas, map
and survey known or newly discovered areas, and maintain the communications
ships which carry information and messages between the worlds of the galaxy.

LBB6 is written explicitly to describe the IISS of the Third Imperium rather than a generic scout service for a generic interstellar empire referred to as the Imperium. It is a paramilitary if not fully militarised service.

The Imperial Interstellar Scout Service is a major service within the Imperium.
equal in stature to the Imperial Army and the Imperial Navy