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Who PLAYED IT but doesn't like it. (T4)

CosmicGamer

SOC-14 1K
I'm curious. Who has PLAYED T4, not people who have only read about it in forums, play tested it but never played the released version, not people who saw a friends copy, or got a copy someone was going to throw away and gave it a cursory glance, but who has PLAYED T4 with a group of people in person or on-line and what are the things you don't like?

Has the experience caused you to
A) stop playing Traveller all together
B) play a different version of Traveller you own
C) go out and buy a different version of Traveller
D) keep playing - possibly making house rules and not use things you don't like
 
I refereed T4 games back when T4 came out, bi-weekly for a bit longer than a year. Several things about it, mostly due to a lack of proper testing, proofing, vetting, what-have-you, caused me to develop a moderate dislike for the game.

Has the experience caused you to
A) stop playing Traveller all together

Of course not.

B) play a different version of Traveller you own

Yes.

C) go out and buy a different version of Traveller

Not as such, no.

D) keep playing - possibly making house rules and not use things you don't like

We tried that, and could mitigate some of T4's problems; however, it turns out that tossing the things I don't like about T4 basically turns the game into CT. In other words, the things T4 added, were added too poorly to be useful to me.
 
I ran T4 for 4 months when it was new.

My players hated the task system; I hated combat, and wasn't too fond of the task system. Ship design was also a major pain.

Went back to MT.
 
I ran a long, multi-year Traveller campaign, bi-weekly, that started using the MT rules and switched to T4 when it came out.

It was one of my players who did the match and figured out just how broken the T4 task system was. It was my post about this on the TML (since I've always been a task-system geek) that broke out the huge TML flame war over this and led to MWM to bring out his T4.1 task system.

We ended that campaign using T4 (about the time T4's Naval book came out), but we decided we'd never use it again.

At that point, we went back to Classic Traveller and fell in love.
 
It should be noted that we also tried the T4.1 Task system, and it made things worse, not better, in terms of feel of play.
 
It was one of my players who did the match and figured out just how broken the T4 task system was. It was my post about this on the TML (since I've always been a task-system geek) that broke out the huge TML flame war over this and led to MWM to bring out his T4.1 task system.

I remember seeing the IHTIT (It's Harder Than I Thought) posts in the TML. Good times... from that period of time, I most miss the Famille Spofulam/Ditzie posts from Ian the most.
 
T4 has some really useful stuff hidden away in amongst the dross.

The core rules provide the basis for my house rule's combat system, and I regularly use stuff from the Emperor's Arsenal and the Central Supply Catalogue.

I like the psionics book, pocket empires and imperial squadrons too.
 
The T4 setting materials were quite good. I especially liked the description of what a TL 12 society would be like. Emperor's Arsenal and Central Supply Catalogue were good too. The rules, um, they sucked. Big time. Oddly enough, though, I liked the starship rules, and have used them quite often. At least until T20 came along.
 
I remember seeing the IHTIT (It's Harder Than I Thought) posts in the TML. Good times...

Well, it was a big flame fest...but I know what ya mean. :D

I can't remember who came up with the IHTIT rule...was it you? Somebody did, at that time on the TML. It wasn't Marc or Loren. It was one of the regular TML posters. I remember it being a rebuttal post to one of my posts illuminating the flaw in Skill vs. Stat with the T4 system.

And, it looks like it survives to this day. It's still used in T5, correct?

And, it ain't a bad rule for that particular system.
 
Played it for some time, hated the task system and so did all the players I knew at the time. This version of the game virtually single handedly killed Traveller here. Now we play occassional TNE games.

It is a pity really as T4 had both some of the best supplments such as Pocket Empires and the worst, that one with "crappy" starship deckplans. The proof readers (were there any?) should have been strung up as well. (But that's just my opinion)
 
It should be noted that we also tried the T4.1 Task system, and it made things worse, not better, in terms of feel of play.

I was one of Aramis's players. T4 was less fun than the older versions and T4.1 not only made it worse (worked more poorly) it also made it even less fun (which I wouldn't have thought possible....) which, IMNSHO, is even worse.

The system gives too much weight to stat and not enough to skill. Success is too likely, but so is critical failure. The revised version makes critical failure even more likely. A task system doesn't need to have critical successes and critical failures but if has them critical failures ought not to be an order of magnitude more likely. [1]

[1] Well maybe if the players are overconfident and regularly try stuff that is really hard, but not as a matter of course.
 
I'm curious. Who has PLAYED T4, not people who have only read about it in forums, play tested it but never played the released version, not people who saw a friends copy, or got a copy someone was going to throw away and gave it a cursory glance, but who has PLAYED T4 with a group of people in person or on-line and what are the things you don't like?

Has the experience caused you to
A) stop playing Traveller all together
B) play a different version of Traveller you own
C) go out and buy a different version of Traveller
D) keep playing - possibly making house rules and not use things you don't like

I still use T4 as my preferred rules. Admittedly I've tweaked the task system a bit (basically added a version of the IHTIT rule and a few other modifications); and I tend to use HG2 ships. But I like the system and the setting.
 
I bought the Main Book + Emperor's Arsenal first. The Emperor's Arsenal is nicely illustrated and written. I also got the Central Supply Catalog which
I feel is "worthy" of the collection.

I also bought the Milieu Zero pdf and liked it so much I went and found
a used copy on www.abebooks.com for about $15. I also ended up
getting the Gateway pdf, but it seems a little trek-ish (but I never got
into as deeply as M-0).

I've never gamed using the T4 rules, mainly because I like GURPS, so for
me the books are great for background to let me homebrew my own
campaign using GURPS Traveller.

>
 
B) play a different version of Traveller you own
We mined some of the T4 materials for ideas, especially the Central Supply
Catalogue, Milieu 0 and - my personal favourite - Pocket Empires, but we
went back to our houseruled version of Classic Traveller and then on to
GURPS Traveller.

It probably reads somewhat silly, but I think our main problem with T4 was
the layout, usually a "lead desert", and the high number of errata did also
not exactly make the game more attractive.
 
Task Resolution

I came up with a New Task Resolution for T4 years ago...

The problem was with the Stat and Skill numbers,
they did not balance out, the Stats were the dominant element, making Skills less worth having. (I'm sure you already know this though)

raising the skill numbers was not an option, neither was lowering the stats, as I wanted to retain the classical look of the orignal Traveller,

it took me awhile to crack this, but I did it,

Task Difficulties
Easy 1D
Average 2D
Difficult 3D
Formidable 4D
Staggering 5D
Impossible 6D
Hopeless 7D

(Yes, also got rid of the 'half-die')


Okay, in this system you still add your Skill to your Stat
But now your Skill level is also a dice pool,
that you add to the Task Difficulties dice pool,
Rolling both pools together and Keeping only the lowest number of dice equal to the Task Difficulty,

Sound confusing?

Example: Captain Jamison (UPP 879C9A) is in trouble again, he draws his pistol (He has Pistol-3) as he dives for cover at the start of the fire fight, he states that is going to return fire on his aggressor, the GM tells him at this range its a Difficult Task (3D), Jamison's player adds his Dex of 7 and Pistol skill of 3 and gets a 10, he needs to roll 3 dice lower than 10,
he then adds his Skill dice (Pistol-3 = 3D) to his Difficult Task dice

So thats Difficult Task 3D + Skill 3D = 6D

Rolling all 6D he gets 6.4.3.5.2.1, he keeps the lowest 3D (the 3,2 and 1 for a total of 6, well under the 10 he needed)

Jamison returns fire and lands a solid shot,




Does that make sense?
 
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I'm curious. Who has PLAYED T4, not people who have only read about it in forums, play tested it but never played the released version, not people who saw a friends copy, or got a copy someone was going to throw away and gave it a cursory glance, but who has PLAYED T4 with a group of people in person or on-line and what are the things you don't like?

Has the experience caused you to
A) stop playing Traveller all together
B) play a different version of Traveller you own
C) go out and buy a different version of Traveller
D) keep playing - possibly making house rules and not use things you don't like



A) stop playing Traveller all together: Nope
I started on classic, and am reading Mongoose Traveller, (also have this version T4 and TNE)

B) play a different version of Traveller you own: Yes and No
I'm thinking of rebuilding T4 (already posted the basic Task Resolution, may post new rules for weapons and armour, and a totally new melee system)

C) go out and buy a different version of Traveller: Yes and No
I will buy more, but not because I need to replace this game, I could just as easy fix it

D) keep playing - possibly making house rules and not use things you don't like: I house rule almost ever game
 
It's funny. My dad gave me T4 on my birthday and I was in middle school and it was the first time that I was introduced to Traveller and RPG. I used to play it with my friends a lot and I thought it was great. But as we kept playing we noticed some flaws with the book.

Tasks were pretty easy to accomplish even on a hard difficulty task. The fact that stats were more involved than skill kind of took the difficulty away. The task and combat system were kind of cumbersome and it slowed down the gaming a bit. I had a hard time developing starships as well.

Other than that, there is a lot of good information in the T4 book. My dad actually bought me the Mongoose version of Traveller on my birthday and I'm waiting for it to arrive. I might buy the original Traveller, since I can afford it now (Couldn't when I was a teenager). It's been years since I've play Traveller and hopefully will play the game with a few of my friends.

A) stop playing Traveller all together
No way!

B) play a different version of Traveller you own
Yes, but have to get the books first.

C) go out and buy a different version of Traveller
Dad bought me the latest Mongoose version. Will buy the original hopefully soon.

D) keep playing - possibly making house rules and not use things you don't like
Yes, but that's with all RPG games. You're only limited to your imagination.

:cool:
 
I guess my answer shhould go in the column for "I liked it!" T4 was one of the first role-playing games I ever played. I didn't care much for the task system , but it was the first I had used and very similar to that of TNE. In my experience with the star ship generation guide is OK if the referee understands the process and has access to either the Standard Design rule online or by reading and using the method and tables in Starships.

The task system had one major drawback for our session and that was the reverse nature of the die-rolling convention (-7 to succeed). AAs for the rest of the game I loved it, my players enjoyed the possibility for cinematic play, the addition of entertainment as a character class and the new psionicist class. Now, I wonder why the the game went away and was replaced. I guess I at cross-purposes with the thread because I still like the game and the high-quality of the supplements. To each his own, I guess.:)
 
I quite like T4 and have done a lot with it in terms of play. I didn't like the task system and the starship design rules which is why I went to great lengths to change them for my own private use. I've included these rewrites in full length in the First Issue of Frontier Report (available at www.the-children-of-earth.org) as a free download.

T4 at heart was a good game but dogged by poor play testing and editing and was designed to work with any milieu which appealed to me. I've used to run adventures in everything from milieu zero to gateway 990, and 1105 the golden age etc. I've not bothered gaming in the rebellion era with it as my group pretty much exhausted that era with Mega Traveller when it first came out. The 1248 'New Era' i just don't like, though I do like 1201 (The New Era) which I have only played using the official TNE rules from GDW which I had great fun with for everything except starship combat, though the new technical assumptions took some getting used to.

In summary T4 is a good game, though needs solid house rules or imported rules from elsewhere to play well.
 
T4's biggest failing for players of prior editions happened to be no support for TL13+ in the core, and FF&S2 being later in the series. You couldn't run CT/MT M1100... until FF&S2 came out.
 
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