Who Plays MGT And Loves It?

[fiat_knox]

I run MGT, nowadays, in preference even to the World of Darkness. I recently saw the JJ Abrams Star Trek, and thought on seeing the way they've rewritten it: "This is the Mongoose version of Trek. Start from the same base, then muck up everything about the setting but the core thing: the player characters. Then tell the audience that now, anything can happen."

This is MGT. Anything can now happen. The Fifth Frontier War could start, or it might never happen because Something intervenes to prevent the key events leading to the war from ever happening.

Duke Dulinor might never get promoted by Strephon because he decides to promote Duke Norris instead: and the subsequent events of 1116 never happen. The Third Imperium goes on for another 350 years before being brought down by a coalition of Vargr and Aslan ihatei, feasting on the corpse of the once-great civilisation whose final TL before its own collapse reached the dizzying heights of TL 17.

And all the rumours about Grandfather being the progenitor of the Ancients can all be utterly bogus. Yaskoydray turns out to be a role they play on TV; every generation or so, they generate a Sport whose sole function is to be a Trickster and muck things up for everybody, just to keep the gene pool filled with interesting genetic combinations.

The real Ancients are ... us. Humans, from the future, a couple of million years ahead. They came, they time travelled back into the dim and distant past, they tinkered with planets and then ... they Sublimated.

The Traveller Universe could be anything. Anything you want. And I love it. All of it.

(Well, maybe apart from the Tigress-class deck plans occupying half of Fighting Ships. Any chance of a Fighting Ships 2 with the rest of the fleet, Commodore?)

So. Ramble over. Who the Hell loves this reboot of Traveller? Speak up! I can't hear you!

 

[drh]

Do you think anyone would want to admit that they love Mongoose Traveller here, on this board? Where they are more likely to be verbally mugged for saying so, while openly sympathetic moderators sit by and ignore the muggers as they turn another thread into their soapbox of hate? No thanks.

If I want to profess my love for MGT I'll do it elsewhere, in an environment that isn't so inherently hostile towards it.:nonono:

 

[fiat_knox]

Ah, yes. But open rebellion is how revolutions begin.

And negative opinions have to be disabused with reason and actual evidence at some point.

Besides, they could always have left the books back on the shelves and carried on buying GURPS, if they'd wanted.

 

[dmccoy1693]

I ran a campaign last year and I loved it. My game is currently on hiatus while I develop my own setting. (Hints to it can be found in the Creatures of Distant Worlds under the Sector Nothart section. Note: all other parts of each creature is generic.)

 

[Whipsnade]

Do you think anyone would want to admit that they love Mongoose Traveller here, on this board? Where they are more likely to be verbally mugged for saying so, while openly sympathetic moderators sit by and ignore the muggers as they turn another thread into their soapbox of hate? No thanks.

drh,

Muggings? Please point to a specific post please.

Soapbox of hate? Again, please point to a specific post.

If I want to profess my love for MGT I'll do it elsewhere, in an environment that isn't so inherently hostile towards it.:nonono:

If you want to join the "Good News Only" brigade on the Mongoose fora go right ahead. It isn't as if you've contributed anything here with your four posts in eight months.

As for hostility, there's a great difference between criticism and hostility. I've seen quite a bit of honest criticism of MgT and I've seen some hostility towards it too, but I've seen nothing even approaching level you and others claim.

YMMV.


Regards,
Bill

P.S. FWIW, there are several aspects of MgT I very much like.

 

[atpollard]

Do you think anyone would want to admit that they love Mongoose Traveller here, on this board? Where they are more likely to be verbally mugged for saying so, while openly sympathetic moderators sit by and ignore the muggers as they turn another thread into their soapbox of hate? No thanks.

If I want to profess my love for MGT I'll do it elsewhere, in an environment that isn't so inherently hostile towards it.:nonono:

How about an easier question, aside from CharGen (which is universally praised as a major coup for MgT) what rules in MgT do you think that MgT does better than other versions?

I'll even answer first:
When playing the trade rules, I really liked how one could easily 'rush' the deal (just to get it over) of spend more time (leaving no stone unturned). While other Trade Systems have similar features, I thought that the one in MgT presented more roleplaying options in relatively few words. It is a clever and versatile set of interrelationships. I also liked how a wide variety of skills could be used to achieve similar results ... Online Trade for "Computer Skill", Official Channels for the regular "Trader/Broker" and Dark Alleys for "Streetwise". It involved a larger percentage of our group and allowed more interaction with NPCs.

PS. For the record, I play MgT and generally like it.

 

[drh]

I just need to point at the recent 30+ page trainwreck on this board to demonstrate what I was talking about. Of course, you wouldn't see anything wrong with that though.

If you're so paranoid as to believe that there's a "Good News Only" brigade then I rest my case.

 

[robject]

Do you think anyone would want to admit that they love Mongoose Traveller here, on this board?

I've played Mongoose Traveller, and I like it. Does that qualify?

And yes, COTI is getting a reputation for actively discouraging MGT posters from coming over. Any MGT players who might be curious about what Traveller originally was, and who might come to appreciate, like, and use older material, are less likely to do so now.

 

[Whipsnade]

I just need to point at the recent 30+ page trainwreck on this board to demonstrate what I was talking about.

drh,

That "train wreck" convinced the owner of Mongoose Games that an OTU pdf was necessary.

Congratulations on your fifth post by the way.

Of course, you wouldn't see anything wrong with that though.

I wouldn't see anything wrong? Did someone say something about muggings?

If you're so paranoid as to believe that there's a "Good News Only" brigade then I rest my case.

Paranoid? Did someone say something about muggings?

Let me quote Ty, an actual game designer, on the pitfalls of the "Good News Only" mindset:

However, *any* product can be improved and MGT is no different. In my experience, the most useful feedback I get as a game designer is the negative feedback. And my own rules have been *improved* by candid (if sometimes energetic) critical debate. I see no reason that MGT should be exempt from this.

I've been on the Mongoose fora and I've seen what passes for playtests there. The "Good News Only" mindset is alive and well.

Candid negative feedback is critical in any endeavor and it one does well to learn and discern the great difference between such feedback and mindless bashing.

Let's make you sixth post worthwhile, shall we? I'll write more about what I like in MgT and you can write something actually specific too.

I like the chargen. It neatly cleaned up the Basic-Advanced divide. The connections tables are useful too, provided they're written well. The tables in the core book were good while the ones in HG seem less useful.

Like ATPollard, I see a great deal of roleplaying opportunities in the trade system. Too often trade has been more a matter of "roll-playing" than roleplaying.

What have you liked specifically about the game?


Regards,
Bill

 

[drh]

Let me quote Ty, an actual game designer

By your implicit admission, whether someone is a game designer or not doesn't mean he has any more authority on the subject than some random joe on the internet (like you or me). After all, Mongoose Matt is a game designer and owner of one of the largest game companies around, but you and your mob seem quite happy to tell him he's "wrong" about everything.

Candid negative feedback is critical in any endeavor and it one does well to learn and discern the great difference between such feedback and mindless bashing.

Constructive feedback is critical in any endeavor. Wanton negativity doesn't serve any useful purpose though. You and your cohorts on the other thread have offered very little in the way of constructive criticism - all you've done is pour on the spite and hate. One person even admitted as much.

If you guys are so keen on having things done "properly", why don't you do it yourselves? Foreven is open for you to publish OTU material in, and the OGL is there for anything else you could add... why not use those and use your energy more constructively instead of just going on and on about what you don't like about MGT and about how wrong Mongoose (and Marc Miller!) are? Or would that be too much effort for you? Don't tell me that you don't have time or inclination to do it - you seem to have plenty of time and inclination and energy to complain about it after all, so if you divert that time and inclination you should be able to come up with a rockin' new OTU product.

Go on, do it. I dare ya. :smirk:

What have you liked specifically about the game?

I like that it's been modernized. I like the character generation. I like the open, generic nature of the game, so that it's more usable with non-OTU backgrounds - I think that is what Traveller should have become a long time ago. I do want to see more non-OTU specific options too, and I like that the rules don't straitjacket me with the OTU's assumptions. I like the extra world generation options. I like that it's available on store shelves, that there are new products continuously being released for it, and that it's being updated and supported by a company that is fully behind it.

There are things I don't like about it too. I don't like the general quality of the editing. I don't like some of the artwork, but that's improved over time. I think some things could have been more rigorously playtested (but generally that's OK). I don't like the lack of power points in ship generation.

But overall, I like it. It's not my favorite version of the game by any means, but I have other editions to plunder if I need material from them.

Such wanton positivity, I know... clearly I must be part of the "good news brigade".

 

[CosmicGamer]

Congratulations on your fifth post by the way.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Whipsnade was being sarcastic and putting down someone for their limited amount of posting. This is not very nice. Not nice at all.

People may have limited internet access, be new to the site, may not like posting because they get tore to shreds, or whatever. Why do you have to attack them?

Personally, I think a long time Traveller player should be a mentor and help and welcome new players and new people to this web site.

People may disagree, and voice opinions, thats part of what these forums are about.

In my opinion, I think this comment was over the line.

 

[fiat_knox]

I'm definitely not one of the "good news brigade." I just like gaming, Refereeing, Storytelling and the occasional bit of freelancing. Mostly Refereeing / Storytelling.

I personally like the modernisation of this version of the game, and the attempt to steer, so far, away from metaplot events - I guess that the whole Rebellion / Hard Times / Virus / New Era thing, and even the Fifth Frontier War thing, might never happen in this setting unless and until Mongoose decides to up the ante and write them in.

However, I have a feeling that Mongoose might actually not do that. They don't need to. There's so much unexplored space in the TU, in the Spinward Marches in particular though they're going to throw in the Trojan Reaches with the Aslan book to make things even wilder, that they don't need to throw in mass events that change history and that don't involve the player characters.

I think that that was one of the things that pissed players off about MegaTraveller and TNE: the lack of player character involvement in events that just happened all around them, with no involvement by the PCs. Now, I can see how the player characters can be the most critical factor in any mission: there's a tacit, unspoken divide between regular folks and the player characters.

Regular folks don't get to do what the PCs do. Not even Scouts. The PCs are the wild cards whose purpose is to be the centre of events. Not merely at the centre of events, but the actual centre. As Travellers, they make a difference: and Mongoose Traveller knows that.

This means it's good for me as a Referee, and it's good for the players because I can get to stretch my wings and play with the boundaries of what is accepted in terms of the technology and the cultures in Traveller, and the characters get a fair amount of cardio running and dodging bullets while the players have fun finding out what their guys can really do with their backs to the wall.

 

[mbrinkhues]

drh:

Re-read the post. I stated that I will counter Mgt by pointing out what I consider bad points in it and that I will tell people that I consider other versions better and encourage them to check those out. If those persons agree with me, it's a loss for Mgt yes. But they will only agree with me IF my arguments are good. Anything else would be dis-honest since I would tell one thing (Praise Mgt) and do another (Play TNE/GT) and one should not preach water and drink wine. Since I prefer other versions it's in my interest to promote those. I can't benefit from Mgt (Won't play it, likely can't use most of it's scenarios) after all so don't expect me to recruit for it. I can benefit from convincing players to my view. And with the small SF (and even smaller Traveller) player pool, any convert to Mgt is my loss and the influx of new players due to Mgt is small(1)

So it's up to Mgt and maybe its official supporters (basically non-existent in germany) to counter that by proving their system is the better one. Should be easy if it is, even more for a company-aided demo team like the ones Pegasus etc. have. As long as the major conventions will get 0-1 Traveller rounds and the 1 is if I do it, that support is missing and promotion goes to GT or TNE.


As for mugging players, I have long stopped doing that. I disagree with them and some take my disagreement a bit personal but hey, games are about options and options can generate strong emotions if the other side does not agree AND you take the stuff more serious than I do. As some do.


(1) The slow pace of Translations (HG is not yet done) and the so-so quality coupled with a dislike of non-german language rule books complicates this. And from the persons on the 13Mann (German Publisher) forum quite a few are either "old hands" or company personal

 

[fiat_knox]

Personally, I think a long time Traveller player should be a mentor and help and welcome new players and new people to this web site.

People may disagree, and voice opinions, thats part of what these forums are about.

In my opinion, I think this comment was over the line.

It probably was. But since this post must be for people who like Traveller, by posting here Whipsnade has made the tacit assumption that he too must like it, even deep down.

And the more he posts here, the louder his protestations, the more it will become obvious that he likes the game. "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

 

[beowulf2044]

When Mega Traveller came out, it was meant to replace the now-called Classic Traveller. Mega Traveller was poorly written, and then proceded to include a depressing official universe. The combination of errata prone rules and official universe put me off Traveller altogether (the drawing of the pregnant woman with the small child standing in front of the ATM machine with the 'account suspended' on the screen really put me off.)

TNE: I didn't like the rules, and again the universe wasn't for me.

T-4: With the dream team of designers, I thought this really should have worked. The official universe held more promise, but again the rules were problamatic.

Gurps: Great job. I'm just not a Gurps player.

Mongoose: Different take on the rules, but they work. New stuff to consider. And what is probably most valuble for me; I can take the basic rules to any convention game I run and know that players will have the same rules availible to them. No arguments, no surprises.

So for the first time since I gave up on Mega Traveller, I'm running Traveller games at conventions again.

 

[drh]

Since I prefer other versions it's in my interest to promote those.

Then kindly go away and do that on the boards devoted to your preferred versions, and leave us alone.

By your logic it seems that everyone who doesn't like a specific version of Traveller should spend all of their time complaining about it on the boards set up for those versions. I would hope that the intent when setting up these boards (this one included) was to allow people to talk about their preferred version without fear of being waylaid by people who disliked it - not to give those haters and naysayers a forum to pile on their hate and force people who do like it to go elsewhere.

The moderators have as much to answer for here as you people do. They need to ask themselves whether or not they want to foster and encourage positive, useful discussion of MGT here (despite their own obvious biases against it) or if they just want this board to be a pit of negativity and hate. CotI has unfortunately developed a reputation for the latter that nobody here seems interested in dispelling.

Already yourself and Whipsnade have commented on this thread. Let's see how long it'll be before you turn it into a soapbox for your views like the other one. Do you and him and tbeard and the others who share your views think you can let a positive thread about MGT remain here without inflicting your "wisdom" on it?

 

[Allensh]

Here we go again. Someone starts a thread for people who LIKE the game and here comes Whipsnade, and soon the others, and we get insulted and harassed.

I am asking you PLEASE STAY OUT OF HERE if you don't like Mongoose Traveller! At least this thread, please!

Don't the moderators see what is happening here??

By the way...I do run Mongoose Traveller and I and my players enjoy it. They have tried CT, and they were not impressed. They like MgT.

Allen

 

[drh]

So it's up to Mgt and maybe its official supporters (basically non-existent in germany) to counter that by proving their system is the better one.

They don't have to prove it's "better" - it's enough that it's new and different and being actively supported too. Those are objective facts - whether it's "better" or not is purely a matter of personal opinion.

If you don't think it's better, then just stick to your own favorite systems. Nobody is stopping you from doing that. Mongoose do not have an obligation to persuade you to stop playing those and start playing their system.

 

[ThunderChilde]

I am quite happy with MGT so far. I do have a few complaints, like the scout chargen tables, and some of the stuff in Mercenaries. I'm right behind you on another book of fighting ships, leave out the BB's pls.

On the topic of veciferous posting, just look around. Thread jacking is common, and the largest single topics are "Does Mongoose Traveller leave you cold?" and "First Impressions from MGT" and then the new king of posts "Why pay more for less (from What you like about MGT)". There is a clear pattern of ugliness on COTI regaurding MGT. I have heard the lame excuse that MGT gets all the hatemail because it's current, a hot topic, because it's the only living version of Traveller, etc.. Bullshit.

Along with the messianic" We must convert the new (none existant) players to the old ways" meme. Yah right, like that's happening in this generally poisonous atomsphere. If I had a pale intention of maybe looking around to see what else is there in traveller, the posse in here would drive me back to the MGT or Gurps boards.

Then there is the keening wail that mongoose is not bringing any new people to traveller. Give me a break. It is selling well, it brought me and many other active posters on this forum and others to Traveller. You are trying to prove a negative, let it go already.

 

[fiat_knox]

I stated that I will counter Mgt by pointing out what I consider bad points in it and that I will tell people that I consider other versions better and encourage them to check those out. If those persons agree with me, it's a loss for Mgt yes. But they will only agree with me IF my arguments are good.

And what if they listen to your arguments, and decide that you don't have a case and buy MGT regardless?

You must allow people to make up their own minds, based on evidence pro or con. Browbeating people and driving them away from the forum does not make for a valid argument. The term "passive aggression" is applicable: "I don't like X, so I'll spoil the whole thing for everybody."

I stated that I will counter Mgt by pointing out what I consider bad points in it and that I will tell people that I consider other versions better and encourage them to check those out. If those persons agree with me, it's a loss for Mgt yes. But they will only agree with me IF my arguments are good.

And if they disagree with you, tough luck. It's their choice. Screaming at them because they don't want to think what you think is not good conduct on the forum. If people don't want to play GURPS or MT, deal.

Since I prefer other versions it's in my interest to promote those. I can't benefit from Mgt (Won't play it, likely can't use most of it's scenarios) after all so don't expect me to recruit for it. I can benefit from convincing players to my view.

You may have to accept that not everybody wants to agree with you, and won't care for your arguments. You have to let things go if they are not going your way. Passive aggressive behaviour demeans only the aggressor.

And with the small SF (and even smaller Traveller) player pool, any convert to Mgt is my loss and the influx of new players due to Mgt is small(1)

Then you have to accept loss, like everybody else in the world suffers the occasional loss. Deal. Seriously. Deal.

So it's up to Mgt and maybe its official supporters (basically non-existent in germany) to counter that by proving their system is the better one.

No, it really isn't. FFE could decide in a heartbeat to remove all the licenses from all the versions of Traveller but one; and that version might come from a company you've never heard of. They might do a better job than Mongoose ever could, but you'll have to let it go if it still isn't your MT or GT. What seems to gall you the most is that somehow you believe that FFE need your approval ... or indeed that Steve Jackson Games welcomes your attempts to steer people to them when they have their own marketing divisions to do that, through the usual channels of the soft cell and the hard cell - not the iron bar of slander.

As for mugging players, I have long stopped doing that. I disagree with them and some take my disagreement a bit personal but hey, games are about options and options can generate strong emotions if the other side does not agree AND you take the stuff more serious than I do. As some do.

It is good that you do not take things seriously or personally. So you can afford to let things go if the people decide that when the dust settles they want MGT after all, and not try and browbeat them away from the forum. Let it go. Deal. We don't all think like you

Nobody thinks like me about things, but I don't go around beating up people who watch football or don't wash their own socks.

And I allow people to disagree with me especially if it's about something over which I have no input, and over which I have no real control so I shouldn't really be commenting on it. If I didn't like Traveller, I'd never have bought MGT. And as this thread's for people who do like MGT and who do accept the game without having Mongoose bribe them or whatever, derogatory comments and pejoratives have no place.

But seriously, your post sounds like you're trying a one man crusade against the company. Unless you've got a top secret mountain base and a giant laser, I suggest you deal and let go of the parts of life you can't control.