Who's doing what?

[hirch duckfinder]

....A semi-regular newsletter with reviews, articles, con write-ups and scenarios. (Only available to BITS members.)

[/QB][/QUOTE]

talking of which, I never seem to get mine. Who should I contact Neil?

 

[Andrew Boulton]

...but *apart* from the 101 books, PP, the bibliographies, scenarios, ACQ, and the newsletter, what have BITS ever done for us?

 

[Andrew Boulton]

...oh, and bits@bits.org.uk is the contact address.

 

[Nellkyn]

Originally posted by hirch duckfinder:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Nellkyn:
...A semi-regular newsletter with reviews, articles, con write-ups and scenarios. (Only available to BITS members.)

talking of which, I never seem to get mine. Who should I contact Neil? </font>[/QUOTE]I'll do. When was the last one you recieved? We are due to get another out in the next month or so. Leave this with me.

 

[hirch duckfinder]

thanks neil.

 

[Nellkyn]

Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
...but *apart* from the 101 books, PP, the bibliographies, scenarios, ACQ, and the newsletter, what have BITS ever done for us?

Much as I’m tempted to add to this list I’ve decided that in the interest the good mental health I won’t.

 

[daltoncalford]

Nellkyn,

Are you ONE of the BITS guys????

If you are, my hats off to you.

Also, is it possible to become a member via paypal?

best regards

Dalton

 

[Nellkyn]

Originally posted by Dalton:
Are you ONE of the BITS guys????

Only in the loosest sense of the term. I help out by running games of Traveller at cons in the name of BITS. I also run games of Power Projection.

Originally posted by Dalton:
If you are, my hats off to you.

I don't write the stuff that BITS publishes but I'll pass on your appreciation to those that do.

Originally posted by Dalton:
Also, is it possible to become a member via paypal?

To be honest I don't know. I'll look into it and drop you a PM when I know.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

Apart from my snarky/sarcastic commentary the other day about it, Traveller may actually need some saving.

Am I to understand that Steve JAckson Games is discontinuing GT stuff? Or are they switching to all pdf, which is where it is going anyway, the future, that is.

So that's:

1. Marc Miller in Semi-Retirement
2. Hunter on Leave of Absence
3. Steve Jackson Games discontinues GT line (?)
4. Games took a hit in General with the D&D online stuff just got released. Lot of "Its a new era" talk down at the game store. That and a few "Time to hang up the Dice", etc. The youth market is growing exponentially lazier! They don't even paint minatures any more. Are we not dorks? What goes on here?

Irregardless of it being a good game or not, in the "Google Search" of popular culture/collective conciousness, "Dungeons and Dragons is on the Computer now." Is something we should get used to hearing. I think I heard my Grandma say it. Steven Colbert did a hilarious bit on his show where he put his Dice on the Mantle.

I am not sure if I should stop belaboring it and stfu.

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran von Gushiddan:
Am I to understand that Steve JAckson Games is discontinuing GT stuff? Or are they switching to all pdf, which is where it is going anyway, the future, that is.

SJG hasn't officially stated (suspicion is it depends on how GT:IW does), but they're going PDF for various things they think will have low sales, which almost certainly includes things like sector books.

 

[TempMal]

4. Games took a hit in General with the D&D online stuff just got released. Lot of "Its a new era" talk down at the game store. That and a few "Time to hang up the Dice", etc. The youth market is growing exponentially lazier! They don't even paint minatures any more. Are we not dorks? What goes on here?

I doubt that MMOs are aimed at the same market as Pen and Paper RPGs. The people who pick MMOs up probably aren't the sort that would have rushed to play PnP RPGs anyway. There may be some overlap (I play both tabletop RPGs and MMOs) but the two are basically completely different beasts - you just don't roleplay in MMOs, at least not in remotely the same way as in PnP RPGs. I'm on what is supposedly a roleplaying server in World of Warcraft and the extent of the roleplaying is the members of a few guilds talking 'in character' to eachother, or when they meet people on the road.

I wouldn't see MMOs as a threat to traditional roleplaying though, any more than card games or minis games are. I think it's more like comparing stage production with radio plays and movies and tv shows - and stage shows certainly aren't extinct.

 

[Scarecrow]

Baron, I agree with Mal, don't concern yourself with computer RPGs too much. Sure, in the last twenty years games consoles have done our hobby a LOT of damage but computer RPGs have been around in some form for years (decades even) and they've not eradicated PnP RPGs as of yet. Besides, by all accounts the D&D MOG is pants!

Equally, as I'm sure you're aware, MOGs aren't roleplaying in the sense that we know it. It's little more than accountancy with pretty pictures and as Mal says, the roleplaying rarely extends beyond saying 'thee' and 'thou' to people. Indeed, a friend of mine once described the 'roleplaying' option in Ultima Online. You can, he explained, create your own dungeons and place your own treasure and monsters. Great, I thought, so all this fantastic technology allows you to recreate the simplest, most brainless of dungeon-bashes. D&D was doing that back in the 70's.
I'd love to do a Traveller RPG for the Computer (in the vein of KOTOR, Jade Empire or VtM: Bloodlines). I try, almost every day to think of a way to sell the idea to my bosses as a possible game concept but I've not thought of a way to do it yet. Not in any way that would be commercially viable. D&D and indeed VtM are BIG sellers and are very well known amongst the geek fraternity. Traveller, not so well

"Sure, I'll tell you where the tomb of the ancients is, but first I need you to rescue my daughter from a gang of Vargr pirates in the sewers!"

Crow

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

Dont get me worng, I know as well the limitations of this stuff. It is not true RPG as you say, more like moving data around. I find city of heroes enjoyable but in no way a winner against ftf gaming. The technology isnt there, nor is true interaction with others.

Pardon my musings. I began to worry when that "Magic: The Gathering" nonsense began...

The only card games I like are ones with a gun on the table...

 

[Scarecrow]

Heh! As a tangential aside, I remember in the 80's when the Fundamentalists (they're called mentalists for a reason) wanted to ban evil roleplaying games, I figured that as long as you had a pen, a notepad and a couple of dice, there was no way any one could take roleplaying away from you. Besides the police had better things to do. "Okay, we know you've got a ruleset in there. Throw out the dice and come out with your hands up."
The way I see it, roleplaying (and indeed, Traveller) is here to stay. There will always be people who roleplay as there are people who play Chess and Monopoly, it just won't ever be the commercial giant it was in the 80's again.

Crow

 

[TempMal]

it just won't ever be the commercial giant it was in the 80's again.

I've had the impression that tabletop RPGs are a much bigger industry now than it ever was in the 80s. It's a drop in the ocean compared to the huge computer game industries, but it's bigger than it was.

 

[daltoncalford]

One year ago, I would have said that my roleplaying days where behind me.

I had just sold all my epic materials (about 100 pounds of tin and plastic) and I had packed up my LoTR mini's.

My game group played mordheim and blood bowl (I really should post pictures of my battle table) while VTES was the favorite at work during lunch.

RPG's where nowhere to be seen in my social life.

I sat down with a friend over a couple of beers and all that changed. The neighbourhood kids have picked up on it due to the kids from my wifes church playing it. The combination of serenity, starwars, stargate and battle star galactica made the young ones have fun while the mystery and intrigue gaming appealed to the women - they love a good mystery better than combat or aliens.

Overall, I was exhausted for about 3 months and finally was told by my wife to cut back to a game a month. Since I was no longer leading the pack, the kids did a D&D to THE character converter and added magic to the mix. My buddy showed up with a T&T converter so we can do some ol'fashioned dungeon crawling. My Traveller rules are getting better polished by the week, but being a perfectionist, I keep on revising and revising. Maybe sometime in the next year or so I will be able to hand it off to someone else.

The issues the people state are the following

D&D is a glorified combat game.
(This is the one I have heard the most)

D&D takes too long to learn
(This comes in second- I think it is anecdotal due to all the books they have produced)

Role playing is too expensive
(Every parent says that until I have them playing with dice, paper and pen in a few minutes)

It is too hard to come together.

The last is the first valid point about roleplaying that I can really agree with.

Work, commuting, family, life all contribute to having the problem of your free time not coinciding with others.

I test grip, bought Kloodge, bought screenmonkey and finally got a game going.

The combination of voip, high speed modems, digital maps and automatic rule/note retrieval combined with the fact you do not need to install any software on the client machines (or have client licenses) makes it easy to have a good game.

Screen monkey takes ALOT of work to set up and I am trying to get a couple of standard Traveller scenarios done so you just copy them into place and play.

So, the RPG market has killed itself by generating tons of material which intimidates the potential player while uping the cost due to excessive production value.

The original D&D game did not even come with dice. You had to cut up the back cover to get chits you would pick out of a hat.

The original Traveller books where black and white and it wasn't until you bought extra supplements/games/magazines that you saw any pictures.

These simple, small rulesets where what generated the big cash sales boom of the 80's.

The big, pretty, expensive, need a forklift to carry books that came after, they are what killed it.

I say, go back to the basics.

LBB, everything needed to play in one box. Polished rules, no excessive cruft. NO setting.

Just my 2c worth.

Dalton

 

[TempMal]

So, the RPG market has killed itself by generating tons of material which intimidates the potential player while uping the cost due to excessive production value.

they are what killed it.

Funny that the RPG industry seems to be going stronger than ever now despite all the things you claimed 'killed it'.

RPGs have moved away from the bare B&W stapled photocopies that were around in the 70s. That's just change for you, the only thing that's 'died' in the meantime are peoples' low expectations of physical quality.

I agree that a lot of games are needlessly expensive now due to the 'excessive production value' but that's apparently what people want nowadays. (I'm not convinced myself. There seems to be an attitude by publishers that a B&W softback is somehow inferior in quality to a full colour glossy hardback. It remains quite possible to have a well produced B&W softback with much better art than a glossy colour hardback).

Be that as it may though - either way the RPG industry is not "dead". It's just not what you want it to be.

LBB, everything needed to play in one box. Polished rules, no excessive cruft. NO setting.

That's very much a matter of opinion. I certainly do not hold the LBBs as a pinnacle of game design.

 

[daltoncalford]

Tempmal,

You need to understand that alot of the statement I make are due to the background and training I have.

From a business perspective, given the rate of inflation, rate of population growth, monetary valuations in comparison over time a market is said to be booming, stagnent or dead.

Although from a flat monetary standpoint, you say that the current market is larger than what is was, you may be looking at comparing the current gross sales values and comparing it to previous years sales values. This does not work. A dollar today can be worth between 2.6 to 3.7 percent less than last years dollar. Given the inflation that occured in the 90's, that figure is even more extreme. That depreciation is cumulative. Even with only a 2% cost of living depreciation (that is very low) a dollar today has less than 60% of the purchasing power it did 30 years ago. (we all know that prices have gone up alot more than that, but, for example purposes, the figure works).

Now, for an investor, he wants to earn enough money from his investment so that he exceeds the cost of living depreciation + the taxes on that money earned. Since investment tax is one of the highest tax rates you will pay (the highest in some areas), you need to earn at least twice the rate of inflation just to end up with the same amount of money you had at the beggining of the year. If you want to actually have any real income from it, you would need at least 3-5 times the rate of inflation. From that you can determine your rate of return. Most investors want an 11-14 month ROI on investments when dealing with small business as they do not have faith in the environment (this is why interest rates are so high for business loans). Others will settle for a standard 6-7 year ROI if they have confidence in the operation.

So for a market to be considered booming, you need to meet or exceed the 1 year ROI while a stable market will require to meet or exceed the 7 year ROI. ROI means that you get 100% return of you intial investment, or, in other words, after one year, the investment has returned to your pocket exactly what you gave it, but, the investment still owes you exactly or more than what you gave it - effectivly doubling your capital.

When a market, although growing, does not grow in sink with the cost of living, will end up shrinking your investment. That means, that although the company is bringing in more dollars than before, it's purchasing power is less. This is considered a dead market.

Although some companies are experiencing booming or stable growth, the rpg industry as a whole is dead from a corporate investment viewpoint.

Other leisure markets are booming and that is where the growth is being seen. It does not mean that rpgs will never experience the boom again, it just means that from the current financial standpoint, the market is dead.

Hope this clears up some of the misunderstanding.

best regards

Dalton

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

A portion of the market is also bigger because more parents our age find it acceptable, unlike when I was I youth and I meant that you were a social maladroit/pervert and/or Satan Worshipper. Pretty heavy attitude for a game, what? There is less a social stigma now, which is good.

Kids also have way more disposable income, or at least thier parents do. Next time they complain of cost, stack up a good set of D&D books next to some GW stuff and they will clam up. Two figures ought to do it, maybe a tube of paint too.

 

[Jeff M. Hopper]

Dalton, thank you for that post. The economic info you just gave definitely helps to understand the gaming industry as it stands today.

I may be wrong, but the tabletop rpg industry has become a cottage industry for the most part. WotC, SJG, and WW are still big here in America while GW has got a good portion of the UK covered. I'm not sure about the rest of Europe or Japan. Most publishers now are independant, doing this in their personal spare time and putting products out via PDF format - which is a radical change from the Boom period of the 80's. Come to think of it, I only know of a few game writers who do this as a full time job nowadays.

Now, to me, this presents a great opportunity. With the right liscense or patronage of a publisher who has that liscense, you too could be a game suppliment writer. Seriously, just look at d20, love it or hate it - the OGL has opened the door for many a new independant publisher, some good and some bad. Although none of them just sat around and did nothing.

Maybe you want to write stuff for Traveller only, then just write it and publish it to the web. Without a liscence agreement, you can't make any money off of what you create for Traveller - but that does not lower the respect given to those who have written for Stellar Reaches or Freelance Traveller or the fLibrary here on CotI.

Its a matter of perspective, if Traveller is in dire straits or not. For myself, I prefer to view this as Ed Harris' character did in Apollo 13 and contend that "Gentlemen, I believe this will be our finest hour."

The game has been supported by fans in the past who have written for it. Why can't we write for the game now and support it? Spread the word a little to recruit new players?

I think BSvG has the right idea going here.