General Who's Running or Playing in a TL-13+ game?

[Spinward Scout]

Is anyone in an Average to High Stellar game?

I'm wondering how you started to run it.

Because CharGen limits you to equipment TL-12 or less, if I remember right.

Do you allow higher TL starting equipment or vehicles, etc...?

 

[Grav_Moped]

My PbP has the players starting with TL-13 stuff, but due to circumstances, they're not particularly resource-constrained. Not sure how much of it would transfer to other campaigns though.

 

[Grav_Moped]

My PbP has the players starting with TL-13 stuff, but due to circumstances, they're not particularly resource-constrained. Not sure how much of it would transfer to other campaigns though.

The constraints there are social and situational. "Yes, you have two suits of Battle Dress. No, you really don't want to wear them to the nightclub, regardless of the local Law Level."

 

[infojunky]

Hum, in general I tend to focus on the common availability of gear at the Imperial Average off TL12 at or around any starport regardless of the local tech level. I don't require players to be limited to that for their initial equipment purchase as part of character creation, unless the premise of the campaign requires it.

What I do tend to limit, sorta is the proliferation of heavy weapons and the like. Again that is in the tone of the campaign being played. The majority of my games tend to focus on what I term as knife and pistol work, but I have the the luxury of having players that prefer thinking answers to problems rather that firepower answers.

 

[aramis]

Is anyone in an Average to High Stellar game?

I'm wondering how you started to run it.

Because CharGen limits you to equipment TL-12 or less, if I remember right.

Do you allow higher TL starting equipment or vehicles, etc...?

Always have. Highest TL in the subsector sets starting equipment max. I don't recall a TL 12 limit in rules for CT, and MT limits to Homeworld TL.
My current campaign ended wed night... A misjump totalling the ship, everyone broke...

 

[mike wightman]

A side question.
What does a TL13 society look like? How do people go about their lives? What paradigm shift have there been?
When describing it I try to use Tv series something like this, you will spot the issue
TL8 - near future super spy
TL9 - the Expanse
TL10 - Babylon 5 Earth Alliance
TL11 - Babylon 5 - Centauri/Narn
TL12 - Babylon 5 - Minbari
TL13 - Foundation
TL14 - ?
TL15 - ?

 

[atpollard]

Actually, TL 13 marks a shift towards The Matrix … it is where Holographic becomes common place and the digital world becomes as important as the physical world. Machines begin to think and the line between people and computers becomes truly blurred. Extend that into all aspects of society … new art and media forms where one EXPERIENCES rather than views. People go to work to THINK … creating realities that have no physical existence, but might be part of 40% of the planetary GDP.

At TL 16, the lines between thought and reality actually do start to become blurred (Matter transformation) and machines become sentient.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Actually, TL 13 marks a shift towards The Matrix … it is where Holographic becomes common place and the digital world becomes as important as the physical world. Machines begin to think and the line between people and computers becomes truly blurred. Extend that into all aspects of society … new art and media forms where one EXPERIENCES rather than views. People go to work to THINK … creating realities that have no physical existence, but might be part of 40% of the planetary GDP.

So ... psionics via technology/cybernetics, rather than via (you know) ... psi powers.

 

[aramis]

A side question.
What does a TL13 society look like? How do people go about their lives? What paradigm shift have there been?
When describing it I try to use Tv series something like this, you will spot the issue
TL8 - near future super spy
TL9 - the Expanse
TL10 - Babylon 5 Earth Alliance
TL11 - Babylon 5 - Centauri/Narn
TL12 - Babylon 5 - Minbari
TL13 - Foundation
TL14 - ?
TL15 - ?

I think you're off a bit. TL9 is gravitic tech's initiation in "later" editions.
Earth Alliance, assuming we take the reference from either CT or MT that Solomani have +1 medical tech, and -1 gravitic tech, starts at TL 9.
The Centauria and Narn both have non-newtonian drives; I'd say those are TL 13 or 14. They "fly" through space as if it's a dense medium.
The Minbari power source isn't mentioned, but given their lack of weakness... and semi-organic ships... I'd put them TL 16. The fighting pike, also, implies "above TL15 tech"

We don't see flying cities, which are TL 13, in any of them. But we do see Memory wipes, which are TL14 (MT RC) in the Earth Alliance. No gravitics (TL9) but Mindwipes.

Likewise, aside from the gravitics, we don't seen any super-high-tech from the Centauri...
The Narn Gravity mines feel like about TL13 to TL 14 to me.

I cannot comment on Foundation - I found the novels unreadable and the radio adaptation sleep inducing, and don't have an Apple subscription.

I'll note as well, my interpretations are grounded firmly in CT and MegaT, and I know both T5 and MgT have altered things...
but EA isn't TL 10 until they get Shadow-tech, under any of them.

All of them use PPGs - basically, plasma guns, from man portable holdout pistol size upward.

All of them have practical fusion

I'll note as well... the Federation of Star Trek is abotu TL18 by MegaT's list... memory transfer (18 - TOS The Ultimate Computer), Terraforming on global scale (12 - multiple episodes), Fully aware computers (16 - TOS, The Ultimate Computer), Disintegrators (phasers on max, TL 19), Matter transmission (CT TL16, MT TL17-18), Matter transmutation (TL17, = ST Replicators)...

 

[mike wightman]

I think you're off a bit. TL9 is gravitic tech's initiation in "later" editions.

It's a guide to "setting culture" rather than tech. TL9 without jump drive = Expanse etc.

Earth Alliance, assuming we take the reference from either CT or MT that Solomani have +1 medical tech, and -1 gravitic tech, starts at TL 9.
The Centauria and Narn both have non-newtonian drives; I'd say those are TL 13 or 14. They "fly" through space as if it's a dense medium.
The Minbari power source isn't mentioned, but given their lack of weakness... and semi-organic ships... I'd put them TL 16. The fighting pike, also, implies "above TL15 tech"

I don't think I explained in my post what this is for, I am not equating Traveller technology, just trying to give players a guide as to what to expect daily life to be like.

We don't see flying cities, which are TL 13, in any of them. But we do see Memory wipes, which are TL14 (MT RC) in the Earth Alliance. No gravitics (TL9) but Mindwipes.

Why can't you build a flying city at TL9?

Likewise, aside from the gravitics, we don't seen any super-high-tech from the Centauri...
The Narn Gravity mines feel like about TL13 to TL 14 to me.

I cannot comment on Foundation - I found the novels unreadable and the radio adaptation sleep inducing, and don't have an Apple subscription.

I'll note as well, my interpretations are grounded firmly in CT and MegaT, and I know both T5 and MgT have altered things...
but EA isn't TL 10 until they get Shadow-tech, under any of them.

I am not trying to equate technology, rather culture.

All of them use PPGs - basically, plasma guns, from man portable holdout pistol size upward.

All of them have practical fusion

I'll note as well... the Federation of Star Trek is abotu TL18 by MegaT's list... memory transfer (18 - TOS The Ultimate Computer), Terraforming on global scale (12 - multiple episodes), Fully aware computers (16 - TOS, The Ultimate Computer), Disintegrators (phasers on max, TL 19), Matter transmission (CT TL16, MT TL17-18), Matter transmutation (TL17, = ST Replicators)...

I'm not trying to explain Traveller technology with this scale more the sort of society and culture the TV has shown. The Traveller TL scale is meant to represent paradigm shift in physics and engineers, such things bring about cultural changes too.
One of the big gaps in all of the Traveller corpus is to explain what daily life is like (although T4 did take a stab at this for TL12) - how is TL13 society different to TL12 society.

The Third Imperium is TL15, ok a lot of worlds are lower than that from a manufacturing standpoint but the TL15 tech is only a couple of weeks wait for Amazon prime members.

 

[Krikkitone]

I think the big shifts as you go 13->16
are in Bio and computers
13 cloning
14 Genetic Engineering +brain computer links (early memory erasure*)
15 anagathics
16 true AI

so TL 13-16 gets increasingly bio/cyberpunk

I think a really big issue would depend on how a given world/society views/regulates these specific technologies. Is everyone 24/7 brain jacked to the internet like cell phones? Are rapid growth sophont clones prohibited, considered property, or the standard method of reproduction for locals. Personality copying…same questions.

*Different versions have different types of “Wafertech” with personality/skill transfer

 

[mike wightman]

So how does TL13 cloning change the society from a TL12 one?
Do people own clones?
Are clones used in place of robots?
Are clones harvested for organ replacement?

Go back one TL, what does the society look like that at TL12 can build self learning manufacturing machines? What do the people do?
Think of the unintended consequence and social change brought about by the interwebs and antisocial media.

 

[Krikkitone]

So how does TL13 cloning change the society from a TL12 one?
Do people own clones?
Are clones used in place of robots?
Are clones harvested for organ replacement?

Go back one TL, what does the society look like that at TL12 can build self learning manufacturing machines? What do the people do?
Think of the unintended consequence and social change brought about by the interwebs and antisocial media.

I think the issue is it depends on the world ie the specific society.
Earth handling the internet is just 1 society handling that tech (only slight variations for “the West” and various others, because of rapid communication…since telegraph +radio basically instant for the planet). A society that is weeks of communication removed from Earth might handle internet slightly differently.

The role of robots/clones or any type of “artificial person/semiperson”. provides effects in terms of how capable they are (how much they can do compared and whether society treats them like “natural persons”.

You would have issues with technological worker displacement if it was a recent change. But unless you have something 100% as capable as a natural person (not until TL16 for AI) AND not treated as such, then you just have tools people use or a different set of workers and not a
“post scarcity slave society”.

 

[whartung]

The role of robots/clones or any type of “artificial person/semiperson”.

I think there would be a gross distinction between clones and "artificial"...I don't know what to call them, they're not people, bots?

The movie "Moon" deals with this issue in an interesting way.

So does the movie "The Island".

 

[aramis]

It's a guide to "setting culture" rather than tech. TL9 without jump drive = Expanse etc.

I don't think I explained in my post what this is for, I am not equating Traveller technology, just trying to give players a guide as to what to expect daily life to be like.

Why can't you build a flying city at TL9?

I am not trying to equate technology, rather culture.

I'm not trying to explain Traveller technology with this scale more the sort of society and culture the TV has shown. The Traveller TL scale is meant to represent paradigm shift in physics and engineers, such things bring about cultural changes too.
One of the big gaps in all of the Traveller corpus is to explain what daily life is like (although T4 did take a stab at this for TL12) - how is TL13 society different to TL12 society.

The Third Imperium is TL15, ok a lot of worlds are lower than that from a manufacturing standpoint but the TL15 tech is only a couple of weeks wait for Amazon prime members.

You cannot divorce the culture and the tech; they interact too closely, and from what I've seen in the adverts, the TV show is TL 10 or 11, without JDrive.'

As for TL 9 flying cities? The gravitics are not stable enough, reliable enough, durable enough, or some other key metric enough. In very much the same way that a supercarrier can't be built until TL 6, and barely then. The combination of gravitics, materials tech, and other considerations struck Marc et al as not being mature enough for sane people to be willing to make them permanent habitats.

 

[Condottiere]

Technically speaking, you can construct flying cities at level nine.

And going by current culture, it's the ultimate gated community.

 

[Ulsyus]

We used the idea that everything at a higher TL would seem normal to the PCs, so spent time explaining the less-advanced things they encountered. That way it was what was unique to their experiences that was discussed. As for the environment and culture, we winged it a little as we went, colouring in blank parts when we had to.

 

[kilemall]

Technically speaking, you can construct flying cities at level nine.

And going by current culture, it's the ultimate gated community.

Gated communities is how Battle Angel Alita renders them.

 

[Condottiere]

Anchoring might be a mistake.

 

[Condottiere]

And if you fly high enough.