Why all the hatas hatin' on MGT?

[gloriousbattle]

I always had something of a love-hate relationship with Classic Traveller.

Things I hated:

1. High Guard

2. Advanced character generation

3. No aliens (though they did, of course, correct this later)

4. Pocket Empires

and several things more.

However, in the last analysis, I love the game, largely because the system is so easily customizable. I threw out a lot of the GDW stuff, incorporated a lot of stuff from other companies (high among them the now defunct and sorely missed Phoenix Games), wrote some of my own stuff, and, in the end, came out with something that I really love.

Now, it seems to me that Mongoose Traveller is 90% the same game as was Classic Traveller. I have taken a pretty close look at the rules, and, yes, there is a change in flavor which will not be to everyone's liking, but it seems to me to be a valiant effort at updating an old favorite, while fixing many of the things that were broken about the original system.

Not trying to start a flamewar, just interested in a genuine dialogue.

Y u b hatin' hatas?

 

[rancke]

Now, it seems to me that Mongoose Traveller is 90% the same game as was Classic Traveller. I have taken a pretty close look at the rules, and, yes, there is a change in flavor which will not be to everyone's liking, but it seems to me to be a valiant effort at updating an old favorite, while fixing many of the things that were broken about the original system.

Not trying to start a flamewar, just interested in a genuine dialogue.

Y u b hatin' hatas?

The confusion arise from the mistaken belief that one cannot critize any aspect of Mongoose's products unless you hate them. This belief is mistaken.


Hans

 

[gloriousbattle]

The confusion arise from the mistaken belief that one cannot critize any aspect of Mongoose's products unless you hate them. This belief is mistaken.


Hans

Which is why I said I'm not looking for a flamewar. Still, many of the old guard do seem a bit... "miffed?", at the new Traveller.

 

[RandyB]

It is sufficiently different that it represents change, and grognards despise change; none more so than Traveller grognards.

And I am with Hans - there can be (and are) legitimate criticisms of MGT that do not constitute "hate", but there is, I perceive, attitude displayed by some that goes beyond those legitimate criticisms. Hence the "hunting season is over" post by the mods.

 

[captainjack]

It is sufficiently different that it represents change, and some grognards despise change; none more so than some Traveller grognards.

And I am with Hans - there can be (and are) legitimate criticisms of MGT that do not constitute "hate", but there is, I perceive, attitude displayed by some that goes beyond those legitimate criticisms. Hence the "hunting season is over" post by the mods.

I fixed your post........

Why all the hatas hatin on all us grognards ? Did I ever take a shot at y'all ?


One or four posters have a hate on for MGT; similarly one or four have a hate on for CT.....and then there's TNE and T4. Each edition post MT (and arguably including MT) has their share of "newer is better" glitterbois, and "no change is good change" mugwumps. Plus, over time, grudges accumulate, and the truly dysfunctional holders also accumulate. Difference is, this edition burst forth into a universe that has a much more sophisticated and accessible fan communication and annoyance system. So, the loonies get a big soapbox, where once they had to post on Genie or mimeograph fanzines. Both of which required subscription.

Its not Grognards vs Malenfants*, but rather Jerks and Loons vs the rest of us. My 2cr.



*Not a personal attack, per se. The "Malenfant" was the counterpart to the "Grognard" in Napoleonic times: the Grognards (Old grumblers) were the old guard who opposed all change from the ancient regime, the Malenfants (Bad infants) the fanbois of the new uber alles; that a certain anti-grognard poster adopted the name is his own business, but nonetheless amusing....

 

[RandyB]

I fixed your post........

Why all the hatas hatin on all us grognards ? Did I ever take a shot at y'all ?

The operational (connotative) definition of "grognard" that I am using included "antipathy to any change" as a key element. Obviously, yours is different.

One or four posters have a hate on for MGT; similarly one or four have a hate on for CT.....and then there's TNE and T4. Each edition post MT (and arguably including MT) has their share of "newer is better" glitterbois, and "no change is good change" mugwumps. Plus, over time, grudges accumulate, and the truly dysfunctional holders also accumulate. Difference is, this edition burst forth into a universe that has a much more sophisticated and accessible fan communication and annoyance system. So, the loonies get a big soapbox, where once they had to post on Genie or mimeograph fanzines. Both of which required subscription.

Fixed yours.

Its not Grognards vs Malenfants*, but rather Jerks and Loons vs the rest of us. My 2cr.



*Not a personal attack, per se. The "Malenfant" was the counterpart to the "Grognard" in Napoleonic times: the Grognards (Old grumblers) were the old guard who opposed all change from the ancient regime, the Malenfants (Bad infants) the fanbois of the new uber alles; that a certain anti-grognard poster adopted the name is his own business, but nonetheless amusing....

Quite historically accurate, in both paragraphs.

 

[rancke]

The operational (connotative) definition of "grognard" that I am using included "antipathy to any change" as a key element. Obviously, yours is different.

As used in Traveller circles, the word simply means an old-timer -- someone who has been involved with the game for a long time. We get it from the war-gaming community, where it means an experienced wargamer.


Hans

 

[HG_B]

Which is why I said I'm not looking for a flamewar. Still, many of the old guard do seem a bit... "miffed?", at the new Traveller.

I haven't noticed that. I have noticed the same type of critiquing that occurred with MT was released, TNE, etc.

 

[Supplement Four]

Now, it seems to me that Mongoose Traveller is 90% the same game as was Classic Traveller. I have taken a pretty close look at the rules, and, yes, there is a change in flavor which will not be to everyone's liking, but it seems to me to be a valiant effort at updating an old favorite, while fixing many of the things that were broken about the original system.

Not trying to start a flamewar, just interested in a genuine dialogue.

For me, it's the flavor (since the core mechanic is 90% what I developed for the game nearly 2 years before MGT was published) of Mongoose Traveller.

It's like the original Star Wars trilogy and the Prequels. The two trilogies definitely have a different taste. As much as I try to embrace the prequels, they don't have whatever it is that attracts me so strongly to the original series.

I liked all the characters in the original trilogy. I couldn't stand Hayden Christensen as an actor before he got the part to play Anakin. I didn't like Jake Lloyd as young Anakin, either. I love Natalie Portman, but other than in The Phantom Menace, I think it's her worst work.

The pod race was boring--it didn't fill me with awe like I was the first time I saw the Star Destroyer fly over head, the Death Star, or Vader's humongus Star Destroyer. Episode VI's speeder bike chase was much more interesting.

I can't stand all the sillyness in the Prequels (don't like the Ewoks, either), with Jar-Jar in the big fight in TPM. Loved the attack on the Death Star in ANH, especially Luke's trench run on the Death Star. But, young Anakin's flying against the Trade Federation is just plain dumb.

I love the mystique of the Force in the original trilogy, then TPM comes along and screws that up with midichlorians.

The only real cool thing in the prequels, Darth Maul, they kill in the first movie (he should have been the heavy throughout the prequel series, with Anakin killing him, replacing him, and turning to the Dark Side as Vader).

I loved the trashcompactor scene in ANH, but yawned at the elevator shaft scene in RotS.

I thought the Battle of Yavin and the Battle of Hoth were exceptional, where I don't even know the names of the battles in the prequels....there seemed to be no "heart" to them, like there was in the original trilogy--nobody to "care for".

I could go on...but you understand all the differences, yet it's still all Star Wars?

That's the way I feel about Mongoose's treatment of Traveller. Their Traveller is more action oriented. It feels more like D&D in space. I look at the awesome realism of the Dietrick pics, and then I look at the vibrant D&D gnolls that are supposed to be Vargr...and I think of all the silly, impossible looking aliens in Star Wars (I never liked some of them from the original trilogy either, like the blue elephant--how stupid).

So, for me, it's not really the rules and the mechanics. It's the "atmosphere" of the game. I don't like Mongoose's direction.

I loved what DGP and GDW and Paranoia Press and FASA used to do with the game.




That said, Marc's new T5 may very well be the update I've been waiting for. If he ever get it put out.

I'm afraid, though, that his game will die (or be a one-shot) due to lack of support.

 

[RandyB]

As used in Traveller circles, the word simply means an old-timer -- someone who has been involved with the game for a long time. We get it from the war-gaming community, where it means an experienced wargamer.


Hans

*shrug* I have always ascribed a more pejorative tone to the term. Then again, since the CT LBBs were the first (and for a great deal of time, the only) RPG that I ever owned, that makes *me* a grognard by the common connotation.

And I'm not hatin' on MGT. The Rebellion and later metaplot, OTOH... :rofl:

 

[rancke]

*shrug* I have always ascribed a more pejorative tone to the term.

Well, now you know.

Then again, since the CT LBBs were the first (and for a great deal of time, the only) RPG that I ever owned, that makes *me* a grognard by the common connotation.

And I'm not hatin' on MGT. The Rebellion and later metaplot, OTOH... :rofl:

See? You're a grognard and you don't hate MGT. So not all grognards hate MGT. Q.E.D.


Hans

 

[gloriousbattle]

I look at the awesome realism of the Dietrick pics, and then I look at the vibrant D&D gnolls that are supposed to be Vargr...

Gotta admit, I like the more space-opera-y feel of it all, and much of the change I did to CT (including many of the Dragon, White Dwarf and Space Gamer articles I use) were about adding in this element.

Strange that a guy who loves SW so much would not like space opera in Traveller, but you cannot argue with taste. People love what they love, hate what they hate.

 

[robject]

I'm not sure if I'm an old-timer or not. I started playing Traveller in 1995, but I've never played TNE. I started with The Traveller Book plus MegaTraveller, jumped to T4, then jumped back.

I like MGT. But then, I also like T5.

I suppose that makes me pedigree diverse?

 

[PFVA63]

Hi

I always thought that a Grognard was someone who likes to drink Grog. I guess I should maybe keep a dictionary handy in the future when I visit these boards.

Anyway, you know what they say "When in Rome do as the Romanians".

Regards

PF

 

[Supplement Four]

Strange that a guy who loves SW so much would not like space opera in Traveller, but you cannot argue with taste. People love what they love, hate what they hate.

I love Space Opera. I guess, for me, Traveller has come to mean one thing, and then it was re-envisioned. And, I don't much care for the re-envisionment.

It's like being a Trekkie and then seeing the new Trek film. It's a whole new ballgame. I am a Trekkie, and I liked the new film (and I like the old stuff, too). But, I definitely understand when people don't like the new.

I'm a huge fan of the new Battlestar Galactica. Some don't like the major change from the original series. I thought the original was hoakey, and liked the new direction.

As you say, opinions differ.



I will say, though, that I am warming up to MGT a bit. I don't think I'll ever play it. But, I don't down right hate it like I used to.

For me, CT still has everything I want and need--and still does "it" better than MGT.

I'm not sure if I'm an old-timer or not. I started playing Traveller in 1995, but I've never played TNE.

Pffft. Nope. Not an old timer.

Heck, I started playing Traveller in 1982, and I don't think they'll let me qualify for old-timer wings.

I think that's reserved for those who started in the 70's.

 

[robject]

Pffft. Nope. Not an old timer.

I see what you mean. Works for me. It's the best of both worlds: I can sound like a grognard stick-in-the-mud, and at the same time be regarded as a punk kid and act selectively disrespectful towards canon. I can disagree with everybody, offending all equally! Yeee-haw!

 

[aramis]

Which is why I said I'm not looking for a flamewar. Still, many of the old guard do seem a bit... "miffed?", at the new Traveller.

Corebook, compared to Playtest draft 3.2, lost a bit of feel; it still is rather good, but not as good as if they had kept power points in the mix for ship design and combat; the critical hit modality for system hits also is a disappointment; it's a novel damage system tied to a Bk2++ ship design... where Bk2 was cumulative hits slowly compromising function. (Or for really small ones, not so slowly.)

The supplements, however, are consistently not up to the same caliber. Some rise to decent, others wallow in barely passable; lots of "WTF?" moments for grogs... especially unexplained retcons, stuff counter to canon making it in, and certain authors making really ignorant mistakes that a few minutes (in one case, literally 5 minutes and a dictionary) research would have cured. A couple have serious "This should never have exited playtest in this condition" issues (Merc, for one).

Also, keep in mind, a lot of us Grogs are some flavor of veteran... and certain rulebooks show an almost absolute lack of understanding of the combat arms and the military and naval terminology.

I mean, really, looking up Merchant Marine would have prevented the misnaming of Merchant Security Forces as Merchant Marine... which said, properly means the entire merchant "service," including the ships and the spacers, liners and tramps.

It's the stupid/lazy errors that get most of my friends irked. And those are not so much in the corebook.

Besides... it's much easier to find what's wrong with anything than post what's right.

There are a few really useful supplements... the Psion book is incredibly useful. The T&G in PDF is just about useless because the images were put in as raster images, rather than vector.

 

[Supplement Four]

(Snip bunch o'stuff.)

I don't agree with Wil often, and I don't know the MGT supplemental material as well as he does. But his point about the "sloppiness" is something that comes through to me when I see an MGT item.

I know the Mongoose is a business, but I don't feel like they love Traveller. I think they look at it as a piece of the machine that will make the company money and little else.

You look at a DGP supplement, be it a magazine, adventure, or supplementary book, and you can feel the love that went into it. Not always, of course. Each company has its ups and downs. But, my god, look at The Flameing Eye, Solomani & Aslan, Vilani & Vargr, The Starship Operator's Manual, Grand Census/Grand Survey/The World Builder's Handbook. Man, those were some BOOKS! When I first purchased each of them, the quality just fell off the page, there was so much of it.

You could tell. The DGP people LOVED Traveller. They did. And, their work showed it.

I'd put any any of those titles up against anything that Mongoose has put out for Traveller. Not one of their supplements reaches for Greatness.

Back in the day, I got to where, if I saw DGP put out an item, I'd buy it, sight unseen. 99% of the time, I was ecstatic with my purchase. Even Knightfall, that DGP did for GDW, was one of the "greats" in the game's history.

Even in their magazines, The Traveller's Digest and the MegaTraveller Journal. Wow! What books! Heck, the MTJ IS a game supplement more than it is a magazine. The last one, issue #4, is an entire campaign!

That's the standard I hold Traveller publishers to. If you want to dazzle me, do what DGP did.

Love the game. It'll show in the work.

MGT's materials, as Wil alluded to, feel like "just another writing assignment" for the author.

I wanna ask, "Where's the love?"

 

[saundby]

MGT's materials, as Wil alluded to, feel like "just another writing assignment" for the author.

For myself, I feel some of the authors don't perceive the difference between Traveller and other systems where you can pull a lot of stuff out of your ass and get away with it.

It's like someone putting out a cheesy musical. "We gotta have some drama and some jokes and some razzle-dazzle and some reeeally big guns. A couple starships, guys in rubber suits wrestling, a planet with jackass bureaucrats, mad mental powers and a scientist that makes things go "boom!" End with a big song and dance number, send 'em out humming the tune."

That's the bad end of it.

I like MGT, but the dilution of the content with dreck has me not buying it on release. I check authors before I buy now, and I regret that the supplements that were done poorly are out there keeping good supplements on the subject from appearing. Overall, I'm buying much less of it. I've not even looked at a lot of what's appeared in the past year. And I'll look closely before I buy anything else.

Grognard? Maybe. I started wargaming in '72, earlier if you count bookshelf games. I played D&D before publication and bought Trav in '77 when it showed up at the local militaria shop that'd started selling games a year or two earlier.

Note that I like MGT. But now I advise new players to get the core book only, and to check before getting anything else, if they really feel the need (unless it's Spica --then buy away! ).

 

[aramis]

Yes, Spica has done really good stuff. They are the new DGP.

Mongoose, however, brings to mind comparisons to Bollywood. And not just for Traveller, either.