Why all the hatas hatin' on MGT?

[kafka47]

[FONT=arial,helvetica] But where is the love? I don't feel it. I look for it, I do! Every time, in every book. [/FONT]

Well, part of it is the dynamics of the enterprise...first and foremost - GDW saw itself as a Workshop not a business. This really colours how you approach things...sure as time went on they got more corporate but this close knit group of people producing a labour of love does come through. Similarly, there were many fellow-travellers (to coin a term from the Communist movement) like DGP but again small groups.

When you get to T4 or GT, the model is already corporate and not longer just hobbyists puttering around. Now, GT did some interesting stuff but it was mainly ripped from CT.

T20 began as a corporate model but encountered the Internet (and mainly this forum) sustained its efforts through the work of a handful of individuals who became bonded to the company but because the company could not make a viable product into the marketplace...there is a lot of animosity toward T20 (not to mention the whole d20 movement - so there is sometimes a double hate there).

In comes Mongoose, a fluid Internet networked company - wants to do right by the grognards whilst innovating the existing material. There cannot be love in a network for the ties are too weak. Will it grow...maybe...it depends upon how well they strengthen the ties with fandom. The fact they have a grognard heading the Living Traveller initiative says something about their commitment. The fact that Marc has insisted to vet things shows that they are wanting to keep a repore alive with the founder's vision. So, while, Mongoose does make horrible mistakes and shows complete abandon to what went before...they are also breaking new ground and planting the seeds for the next generation of gamers.

We old timers, can steal ideas to make our old style games work better or we grip and kill it. But, the fact is, it does not matter how use the randomizer or the rules - the game is ours and yours. We can criticize but hopefully with the aim of making things better. Does it fall on deaf ears at Mongoose - I don't think so...but the problem with a network, it sometimes takes a long time for information to complete the circuit and by that time production deadlines are passed and checks need to have money to back them up.

Nobody knows how it will resolve itself...but I do know this...if we stay quiet or complain only - and not intervene - the whole Traveller enterprise will fail. And, none of us want that to happen...again.

So to answer your question - where is the love - the love is inside you to make the difference necessary. Whether it means just participating here and on MgT forums or better yet writing something for S&P or a supplement or running CT behind a MgT screen...they are crying for us grognards to come forth and share the love.

 

[Sturn]

Not sure what label for me. Started Traveller in early 1980's, D&D around the same time. Avalon Hill boardgames around 1980?

......MGT so far has two systems that are so-so compatible and have some elements that are unrealistic (75 percent weight reduction when a support weapon get's vehicle mounted etc.).....

This has got to be a typo which I wish MGT would put in some official erratta. The book states, "reduce the mass of these types of weapons by 75%" when it should say, "reduce the mass of these types of weapons to 75%" or something similar. If you do the math for the weapons chart listed under this sentence, the masses appear to be 75% of the masses in other MGT sources. So, 25% reduction for removing gun carriages, tripods, gun shields, other components.

 

[mbrinkhues]

I'll do some math on german WWII weapons over the weekend. They had vehicle and carriage mounted weapons that fired the same ammo and used the same barrel length and I have a source that lists the weights of both systems (37mm, 50mm, 75mm PAK and Tank guns, 88mm Flak and tank guns, 128mm guns, 105mm howitzer, 20mm tank gun and AA) to get a decend idea what weight reduction seems okay.

 

[HG_B]

This has got to be a typo which I wish MGT would put in some official erratta.

Kinda like the typo in civilian vehicles that has chemical batteries as having twice the energy density as fusion reactors? Verified as no typo, just thoughtless game design.

 

[Sturn]

Kinda like the typo in civilian vehicles that has chemical batteries as having twice the energy density as fusion reactors? Verified as no typo, just thoughtless game design.

No, not like that. That is not a typo and not something I would defend. Just the specific thing that was pointed out about weapon weights does appear to be a typo.

 

[Arvig]

For me, it's the flavor (since the core mechanic is 90% what I developed for the game nearly 2 years before MGT was published) of Mongoose Traveller.

It's like the original Star Wars trilogy and the Prequels. The two trilogies definitely have a different taste. As much as I try to embrace the prequels, they don't have whatever it is that attracts me so strongly to the original series.

I liked all the characters in the original trilogy. I couldn't stand Hayden Christensen as an actor before he got the part to play Anakin. I didn't like Jake Lloyd as young Anakin, either. I love Natalie Portman, but other than in The Phantom Menace, I think it's her worst work.

The pod race was boring--it didn't fill me with awe like I was the first time I saw the Star Destroyer fly over head, the Death Star, or Vader's humongus Star Destroyer. Episode VI's speeder bike chase was much more interesting.

I can't stand all the sillyness in the Prequels (don't like the Ewoks, either), with Jar-Jar in the big fight in TPM. Loved the attack on the Death Star in ANH, especially Luke's trench run on the Death Star. But, young Anakin's flying against the Trade Federation is just plain dumb.

I love the mystique of the Force in the original trilogy, then TPM comes along and screws that up with midichlorians.

The only real cool thing in the prequels, Darth Maul, they kill in the first movie (he should have been the heavy throughout the prequel series, with Anakin killing him, replacing him, and turning to the Dark Side as Vader).

I loved the trashcompactor scene in ANH, but yawned at the elevator shaft scene in RotS.

I thought the Battle of Yavin and the Battle of Hoth were exceptional, where I don't even know the names of the battles in the prequels....there seemed to be no "heart" to them, like there was in the original trilogy--nobody to "care for".

I could go on...but you understand all the differences, yet it's still all Star Wars?

That's the way I feel about Mongoose's treatment of Traveller. Their Traveller is more action oriented. It feels more like D&D in space. I look at the awesome realism of the Dietrick pics, and then I look at the vibrant D&D gnolls that are supposed to be Vargr...and I think of all the silly, impossible looking aliens in Star Wars (I never liked some of them from the original trilogy either, like the blue elephant--how stupid).

So, for me, it's not really the rules and the mechanics. It's the "atmosphere" of the game. I don't like Mongoose's direction.

I loved what DGP and GDW and Paranoia Press and FASA used to do with the game.




That said, Marc's new T5 may very well be the update I've been waiting for. If he ever get it put out.

I'm afraid, though, that his game will die (or be a one-shot) due to lack of support.

I won't address your every comment. And in part I do understand what you mean with regards to the Star Wars prequils, and then the comparsion/analogy with CT vrs MGT.

Also please everyone take this as just commentary. It's not my desire to start a flame war either.

But I've always wondered with regards to CT vrs MGT at least if there's a nostalga filter happening with some people. Likewise, the same since it was mentioned with the original Star Wars trilogy vrs the prequels.

I do know that in both cases even if there is a nostalga filter for some that they are still fairly different products. And I see some flaws with MGT too. But I see flaws with CT also, and with any edition of Traveller. Likewise with all of the Star Wars films, original or prequels.

For the record, I'm enjoying MGT a lot and have most of it's books. But I did enjoy CT in it's day, and although I lost most of my CT stuff and Megatraveller stuff in a house fire back in 1994, I have gotten back at least most of my CT stuff via the FFE reprints. But losing most of my CT stuff and Megatrav stuff isn't the reason why I have embraced MGT. As an aside, I didn't start buying LBB's in the late 70's but I did start in 1981 if memory serves, so I'm at least a quasi-old timer IMO for whatever that's worth. But I do like MGT overall, despite it's flaws. I do feel most if not all of it's flaws are easy to work around as an aside, but yes I also see some that are just a bit much too. But then again, I'm hard pressed to think of any game written since the mid to late 70's that doesn't have it's flaws, minor and major.

And with regards to the SW films, original I like better but I'm not a prequel hater. And I only find Jar-Jar mildly annoying, and I kind of liked the pod race, so there! &

Anyway, again this isn't a flame, and I have no issue with anyone liking any edition of Traveller I dislike (okay, I might somewhat question the sanity of someone completly in love with T4...okay just kidding. ). Hopefully people will be a lot more civil on this board though with regards to MGT and any other edition they personally dislike. I will take the liberty of saying that I sometimes don't feel comfortable even mentioning MGT on these forums for fear of getting attacked or treated like someone who is a clueless "n00b" with regards to the game. No, I'm far active when it comes to post count but I do lurk here a lot, and there have been plenty of times where I started to post, but then changed my mind since I was worried I'd just get flamed simply for mentioning MGT. Without naming what forum (since I actually don't remember) I even saw a post that was less then a month old where someone was suggesting to a new Traveller player who has bought a couple MGT books to avoid this forum due to people disliking MGT here. Please don't take that the wrong way, but I have to be honest when I say that these forums apparently have such a reputation based on other forums I've lurked on from time to time.

Okay, wall of text done.

 

[nats]

But I've always wondered with regards to CT vrs MGT at least if there's a nostalga filter happening with some people. Likewise, the same since it was mentioned with the original Star Wars trilogy vrs the prequels.

For the record, I'm enjoying MGT a lot and have most of it's books. But I did enjoy CT in it's day

I feel exactly the same. A lot is nostalgia plain and simple. I loved CT, I loved the Keith illustrations (well most of them), I loved the look of the books, I loved the way I used to feel playing it. But with MGT, when looked at objectively it sorts all the problems that CT still has - lame chargen, basic adventures, limited equipment, lack of information on many aspects of the game, lousy combat etc etc. Its all still there in CT. I know becuase Ive just bought all my old books back - out of nostalgia - and I just cant play it and I have tried. Some of the adventures are still great though and I will be using those.

MGT adds so much new stuff to Traveller and a lot of it is really cool. It brings a lot together and it adds a lot of character to playing the game. The illustrations are getting better (the first early stuff was rubbish) and some of the stuff is really really good (like the Central Supply Catalogue) that you cannot say there is no love there. Reading through it answers questions I have had about Traveller for years!

Its just time to move on, CT is old hat and MGT is the version to have now, thats all there is to it for me. I loved CT but I just cant play it anymore.

And regarding Star Wars yes nostalgia again. But what it so special was that nothing like that had come before. Star Wars changed everything in scifi. That film blew me away. But watching it now - there is a lot to be laughed at especially the lightsabre fight. But you know for some reason models to me always look more impressive than CGI and that Hoth battle wouldnt have looked half as good in CGI because you just know CGI is not as 'real' as models for some reason. But there is a lot to like in the prequels especially the first one - it was the terrible story of the last prequel that really annoyed me, Darth Vaders transformation what a waste after there was so much mystique about it in the early comics etc. But then ROTJ was not brilliant either....

The really cool thing about MGT though is that it opens up the door to all kind of new ideas for Traveller such as laser swords and Star Wars stuff, walkers and macrobinoculars. Things that werent in CT and wouldnt be seen as 'canon' by grognards. This makes it fun to play and refreshing.

At the end of the day anything that gets me back into Traveller is good and if not for MGT I wouldnt be playing it again. And I seriously doubt whether this forum would be still quite so busy either... They may be making some mistakes but they at least someone is doing something to keep Traveller alive!! If we wait for Marc Miller to do anything new and worthwhile we might as well give up on Traveller altogether.

 

[atpollard]

If we wait for Marc Miller to do anything new and worthwhile we might as well give up on Traveller altogether.

"Why all the Haters Hating on Marc?".

To answer the OP and the basic question raised, MgT has made some deliberate changes that actually deserve 'hate' by those in disagreement with the new direction represented by those changes.

An analogy could be drawn from the shift in D&D from 'Elf' being a class to an 'Elf' being a race capable of being any class. It was a substantial change that some loved and others hated that changed the 'feel' of the game. Repackaging 'Traveller' as a rules system and 'The Third Imperium' as just one of many settings is one example of such a change.

This does not justify the baiting and personal animosity expressed by a few on both sides of the issue (which thankfully appears to be mostly in the past). It does underscore that both those who love the changes and those who hate the changes are not unreasonable to do so, everyone is entitled to their personal preference - just maintain basic civility in supporting it.

 

[kafka47]

Elfs and Elves are good starting points for discussion in regard to Traveller. What I think most grognards object to is the new content. Which I actually welcome it. There will always be a segment of any population who asks - "why do things have to change?" even if it is between supplements/books (we all know that Mongoose does not employ full-time fact/canon checkers). For the most part, I welcome those changes...and those that I don't I discard. I really look forward to the Library Data book, as it will serve as a kind of writers bible for the 3I.

BTW, I stand on the position, yes, Elves are a race but they cannot be of any character class. For their abilities/nature do not allow them to be such.:devil:

 

[Jame]

No, not like that. That is not a typo and not something I would defend. Just the specific thing that was pointed out about weapon weights does appear to be a typo.

Which is why, even though I've come to enjoy MGT, I think that it's flawed when compared to CT/MT/GT - it has some things that are simple typos and some things that are the result of not thinking things through and keeping them consistent with others.

 

[HG_B]

The really cool thing about MGT though is that it opens up the door to all kind of new ideas for Traveller such as laser swords and Star Wars stuff, walkers and macrobinoculars. Things that werent in CT and wouldnt be seen as 'canon' by grognards. This makes it fun to play and refreshing.

Really? I remember people introducing those things into CT games back in the 70's...

 

[captainjack]

An analogy could be drawn from the shift in D&D from 'Elf' being a class to an 'Elf' being a race capable of being any class. It was a substantial change that some loved and others hated that changed the 'feel' of the game. Repackaging 'Traveller' as a rules system and 'The Third Imperium' as just one of many settings is one example of such a change.

while this only reinforces your point, the D&D grognard in me feels obliged to point out that the elf as class was the actual change from elf as race for those who started with the three book set. Elf as class started with the Holmes rewrite of the original rules, called basic D&D (later the BX series) -and that was one of the changes which soured many on the new edition. That and it being crippleware.....but I could go on.

This does not justify the baiting and personal animosity expressed by a few on both sides of the issue (which thankfully appears to be mostly in the past). It does underscore that both those who love the changes and those who hate the changes are not unreasonable to do so, everyone is entitled to their personal preference - just maintain basic civility in supporting it.

Oh....right, yes. Good point. carry on.

 

[dmccoy1693]

"To answer the OP and the basic question raised, MgT has made some deliberate changes that actually deserve 'hate' by those in disagreement with the new direction represented by those changes.

An analogy could be drawn from the shift in D&D from 'Elf' being a class to an 'Elf' being a race capable of being any class. It was a substantial change that some loved and others hated that changed the 'feel' of the game. Repackaging 'Traveller' as a rules system and 'The Third Imperium' as just one of many settings is one example of such a change.

That "deserve" hate??? Seriously??? You've got to be kidding. Deserve hate? No. Sorry atpollard but I have to disagree with you.

While the Elf class/race debate is possibly accurate, an analogy that more people can associate with in recent years is the change from 3rd ed to 4th ed D&D. It too had some serious changes that caused some sharp reactions from many that loved 3rd ed. Myself included. So I understand what you are saying.

But that was 3 years ago. What have I done since then? I got over it. I realized that Pathfinder is my game and 4E is not. I play Pathfinder for my "D&D" fix and do not care what happens to 4E in the same way that I don't care about GURPS or EABA or HERO or many other systems out there that simply are not for me.

Its been 3 years since MGT was released.

This does not justify the baiting and personal animosity expressed by a few on both sides of the issue (which thankfully appears to be mostly in the past). It does underscore that both those who love the changes and those who hate the changes are not unreasonable to do so, everyone is entitled to their personal preference - just maintain basic civility in supporting it.

Here we agree.

 

[Spinward Scout]

I've never understood this whole 'Mongoose Hater' thing anyway. I said I didn't like the artwork in the MgT Core book and got branded a 'hater'. Then, lo and behold, Mongoose comes out with a new version of the Core book that has new artwork replacing what I didn't like (maybe it was the Pocket Rulebook, I'm not sure).

It's not hatin' - it's called Feedback.

Don't ask someone what you think about their product and not expect that at least one person won't like it. It shows a serious immaturity to think no one would have any complaints. You can't please all of the people all of the time.

 

[rancke]

Its been 3 years since MGT was released.

And the so-called Mongoose-bashing took place in the early days. I can't recall the last time I saw anything that could honestly be interpreted as Mongoose-bashing, whereas accusations of same crop up over and over again with dreary regularity. Can we ram a stake through this undead canard already?


Hans

 

[Icosahedron]

But with MGT, when looked at objectively it sorts all the problems that CT still has - lame chargen, basic adventures, limited equipment, lack of information on many aspects of the game, lousy combat etc etc.

Hmm, I'll agree that MgT chargen is good, but I reckon the combat is still lousy. I'm not saying CT combat wasn't - I've spent 30 years looking for a 'decent' combat system - unfortunately MgT combat isn't it.

Over the years, equipment has been introduced, information has been updated, and the adventures were designed to be basic (spoon feeding GMs so they can park their brains on a shelf and dust them weekly is a growing phenomenon that some like and others don't).

Much of what Mongoose has done, IMO, is to have distilled all the supplements, editions ideas, information and suggestions of the past 30 years into a new volume. Given that advantage, I can't see how Mongoose could fail to produce material that blew CT out of the water.

The really cool thing about MGT though is that it opens up the door to all kind of new ideas for Traveller such as laser swords and Star Wars stuff, walkers and macrobinoculars. Things that werent in CT and wouldnt be seen as 'canon' by grognards. This makes it fun to play and refreshing.

I was designing laser swords and walkers within weeks of getting a copy of Striker back in 198x, and I already had macrobinoculars, I added those within weeks of getting my little black boxed set. A GM can have anything he wants - if he dusts off and re-inserts his brain...

Quote from LBB3, last page:
"Traveller is necessarily a framework, describing the barest of essentials for an infinite universe."

Yep, it was designed that way.

If we wait for Marc Miller to do anything new and worthwhile we might as well give up on Traveller altogether.

No need to give up on Traveller - CT, MT and all the others are still there...

And since when does something need to be new to be worthwhile? Grumble, change for change's sake, mutter...

At least MM is still interested in Traveller after 30 years. I wonder if Mongoose will be?

I don't hate MgT, I'm playing it right now, but it ain't the best thing since sliced bread, either.

 

[Vile]

I was designing laser swords and walkers within weeks of getting a copy of Striker back in 198x, and I already had macrobinoculars, I added those within weeks of getting my little black boxed set. A GM can have anything he wants - if he dusts off and re-inserts his brain...

I keep seeing this brought up but I don't see how it's relevant. As well to say "who needs Traveller, I was designing laser swords and submachineguns for D&D in 1983" (I was). Why compare a game which introduces something with a game which didn't have it? A GM with a brain can write his own game entirely from scratch, that says nothing whatever about any other system.

This is ancient history, I don't know why we're dredging it up again. MGT, like all games, has its good and bad points, IMO more good than bad but YMMV. Let's move on.

 

[oldgamergeek]

I have been playing Traveller since there has been Traveller seen,played and loved every version in spite of and because of its weaknesses, uniqueness, strengths and everything else. Brothers and Sisters please remember it's role playing not roll playing, play it your way and have fun.
Classic Traveller
Mega Traveller
The new Era Traveller
Gurps Traveller
T-20 Traveller
Mongoose Traveller
and any I my have forgotten :rofl:
just play them

 

[Jame]

And the so-called Mongoose-bashing took place in the early days. I can't recall the last time I saw anything that could honestly be interpreted as Mongoose-bashing, whereas accusations of same crop up over and over again with dreary regularity. Can we ram a stake through this undead canard already?


Hans

I agree. Though I should admit that I was a "hater" of a limited type originally; they may have some things that I disagree with but I can change them for my game, and I respect them now because they want players to have a good fun game.

 

[Shonner]

Maybe the hate is aimed towards whatever company has a currently active Traveller license?