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Why do only capital ships have screens?

First, I want to apologize for prematurely starting this thread. I had just picked up the MgT Ships of the French Arm while visiting relatives and had none of my GDW 2300AD books with me. Had I waited a couple of weeks, it would have made things easier.

Ypres-class frigate
At half the mass of the Bismark battlecruiser and six times the mass of the Orage-class frigate, I think the Ypres is more accurately a light cruiser. I suppose it could be considered a frigate compared to the Richelieu, but the Ypres is 30 years older and very few were built.

Powerplant size and screen useluness
I thought 2300AD powerplants had higher MW ratings, guess not. Although, still, a rating 1 or 2 screen is not an outrageous power requirement for smaller warships. At what point is "roll 1d10 vs death magic" worse than "you get no saving throw"?

(more on screens in another post)
 
It's not so much that it was changed but that Star Cruiser and the starship combat system in 2300 are different rulesets.

The problem with screens in Star Cruiser is that you have to roll equal to or under the value of the screen for them to work and that each hit reduces the effectiveness of the screen by that amount for the turn. The latter is fine; screens are ablative, so it's understandable. It's the former that is the issue.

For instance, the best Old Military screens you can get are rating 4, which means it has a 40% chance of stopping an incoming shot; 60% of shots simply go through like it wasn't there. Its usefulness is a bit questionable.

Other than saying screens were rated 1 to 10, that's the same rules in the original Traveller 2300AD boxed set. In the boxed set rules, it also mentioned that screens rest to their starting rating at the beginning of the next round.

OTOH, while described as the same technology, screens in the MgT version of 2300AD work differently. Old military are rated at 1-6 and new military as 3-8, but rather than acting as a saving throw it acts as hull armor, reducing damage, but screens are applied before hull armor to an incoming attack. Screens are ablative, but rating is reduced whether or not the screen stops the attack. Additionally, the screen components include only six reloads, to replace vaporized metal strips. Once out of reloads, the screen does not refresh/

The only power requirement is that if screens are up, either stutterwarp speed is reduced by 10% or energy weapons cannot be fired.
 
OTOH, while described as the same technology, screens in the MgT version of 2300AD work differently. Old military are rated at 1-6 and new military as 3-8, but rather than acting as a saving throw it acts as hull armor, reducing damage, but screens are applied before hull armor to an incoming attack. Screens are ablative, but rating is reduced whether or not the screen stops the attack. Additionally, the screen components include only six reloads, to replace vaporized metal strips. Once out of reloads, the screen does not refresh/

The only power requirement is that if screens are up, either stutterwarp speed is reduced by 10% or energy weapons cannot be fired.

That's understandable. Colin and co. when adapting 2300 for MongTrav likely wanted to address a lot of the messy / incomplete / poorly playtested rules from 2300 and clean them up to make a more playable game.

While I'm not a big fan of simplified power allocation system you describe as occurring, I can see why they did it for the purposes of keeping the system simple. In old school 2300, you could use screens at a lower power setting as well - the screen rating given was if it was running at max power. You could run it at a lower power rating to free up power for other purposes.

And certainly, if the penalties are "just" that, I don't see why every ship doesn't have screens. In fact, I'd say that since a layer of thin metal strips could act similarly to "folding Whippet Shields" - perhaps all ships in 2300 carry low power screens to act as debris shields instead of installing of braced and heavy armor against micrometeors, and controlling mass is very important in a universe where anti-gravity doesn't exist and a lot of ships don't use fusion power.

Ypres-class frigate
At half the mass of the Bismark battlecruiser and six times the mass of the Orage-class frigate, I think the Ypres is more accurately a light cruiser. I suppose it could be considered a frigate compared to the Richelieu, but the Ypres is 30 years older and very few were built.

The Ypres turned into this Frankenstein's monster because of the way GDW decided to apply the idea "hit points" to starships. In "aulden dayes" of GDW 2300, the larger the hull, the greater the mass of the hull. If you added armor to the hull, the amount of armor determined the multiplier that was applied to the mass of the hull. I'm leaving factors out like the nature of the material used to make the hull and so on, but this is the basic gist of the system. This meant that even a small ship with a higher armor value (eg; the Martel) had a stupid number of hit points. A medium-size ship with a decent armor value resulted in a ridiculous number of hull hit points. Instead of examining and rewriting this mechanic for playability, GDW seemed to have collectively shrugged and decided ship out the rules anyway with the crude fix that the additional ship sheets just to show hull hits was dumb (they were right) and ignored the multiple pages (iirc it was like five or six when I figured it out) of tiny box hull hits that Armor 9 or 10 Kafer Alphas should have, the 2-3 the Bismarck should have and so on and just consolidated it to one page.

The idea of hit points on a ship being basically a 1:1 relation to the mass of the hull is easy but lazy - as game designers being paid to make a system they should have realized it was also fairly ridiculous and unplayable. Ships don't take a certain amount of damage then vaporize into a ball of plasma or fragments the size of a grain of sand and cease to exist like in video games where the memory and processing power of computers is limited so they didn't want to continue to track dead hulls so everything just exploded and ceased to exist.

It takes a huge amount of overkill power to do this, and maybe not even then - even a 1,000 pound bomb dropped onto a car is likely to leave enough twisted bits of wreckage that is still recognizable as once having been a car. Similarly, seagoing warships that "exploded" during war vanished because they sank into the water, not because they exploded into a halo of hot plasma and tiny fragments - Paul Allen has been proving this lately beyond a shadow of a doubt. GDW's ship hit points basically represented the amount of kill power you'd need to pulverize a ship into tiny fragments which is why the hit boxes become so pointless so quickly - it was a statistic that really didn't need to be tracked the way it was. If they wanted to go with hit points, great! Track it until some (arbitrary) "mission killed" point where it becomes an unpowered hulk drifting on its last vector - this would be reached a long, long time before the hull vaporized it would sacrifice realism for ease of play (like Dungeons and Dragons has "hit points"). Or go with some system where you track subsystem damage for greater granularity. GDW went with the latter ... yet for some reason kept the hull hit system which was largely superfluous at that point in original 2300 and Star Cruiser.
 
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While I'm not a big fan of simplified power allocation system you describe as occurring, I can see why they did it for the purposes of keeping the system simple.

Since they were using the 1e MgT starship rules, which were based on CT Book 2, it would have taken some work to convert the drive letter ratings to MW values.

And certainly, if the penalties are "just" that, I don't see why every ship doesn't have screens.

There are the sensors modifiers: a screened ship is -1 on all rolls with it's own sensors and +1 to be detected with another ship's active sensors.

In fact, I'd say that since a layer of thin metal strips could act similarly to "folding Whippet Shields" - perhaps all ships in 2300 carry low power screens to act as debris shields instead of installing of braced and heavy armor against micrometeors, and controlling mass is very important in a universe where anti-gravity doesn't exist and a lot of ships don't use fusion power.

Doing a quick appraisal of the Martel (armor 12 in MgT 2300), if hull armor was reduced to 9 and rating 3 screens added, it would only have 0.25 dtons and increase cost by about 25% ... and be ablative, unlike the armor.

Interestingly, of all the ships in the Mongoose core rules and SotFA, only the Frenc heavy cruiser has screens (with no reloads beyond what come standard).
 
Doing a quick appraisal of the Martel (armor 12 in MgT 2300), if hull armor was reduced to 9 and rating 3 screens added, it would only have 0.25 dtons and increase cost by about 25% ... and be ablative, unlike the armor.

I'm not sure you want to do that, considering it is an increase in mass.

My idea was more along the lines of something that wouldn't even count as screens in the combat system or maybe screens-1 at most because I have a philosophical opposition to physical armor on starships in a universe without anti-gravity and fusion reactors in everything. While Stutterwarp acts as a reactionless thruster for starships, the idea of adding mass for armor still bugs in a game with an aura of hard sci-fi.

Interestingly, of all the ships in the Mongoose core rules and SotFA, only the Frenc heavy cruiser has screens (with no reloads beyond what come standard).

That makes sense. The French are supposed to be the most technologically advanced nation in 2300. It sounds like screens have been recast in Mong2300 as a more exclusive technology (no "old military" screens, I guess), so it makes sense that the wealthiest and most powerful nation which has to constantly be out-innovating potential rivals would be the nation to use screens the most.
 
While Stutterwarp acts as a reactionless thruster for starships, the idea of adding mass for armor still bugs in a game with an aura of hard sci-fi.


True, but it makes sense. So you get to decide how much mass you want to lug around, thereby decreasing your warp efficiency, and what sort of balance you want to hit between mass and power. And you get really thankful when you can set up a spreadsheet and watch the changes ripple through, versus the calculator & paper method from the late 80s early 90s.

Again, it's been some time since I looked at the rules, but you could decide what material you wanted your hull to be, and I thought different types gave different effective numbers of hull boxes. All-metal hulls were dirt cheap, and your sensor return had a huge boost. Your ship probably scrambled cable signals when it came in to land. What was the other end of the scale, advanced composite?
 
I'm not sure you want to do that, considering it is an increase in mass.

Sorry, I was unclear. Trading 3 points of hull armor for rating 1 screens uses 0.25 dtons of volume (CT rather muddies the water between volume and mass) less. However, nothing really useful to a fighter at that volume.

My idea was more along the lines of something that wouldn't even count as screens in the combat system or maybe screens-1 at most because I have a philosophical opposition to physical armor on starships in a universe without anti-gravity and fusion reactors in everything. While Stutterwarp acts as a reactionless thruster for starships, the idea of adding mass for armor still bugs in a game with an aura of hard sci-fi.

If armor shouldn't add mass, what should?

That makes sense. The French are supposed to be the most technologically advanced nation in 2300. It sounds like screens have been recast in Mong2300 as a more exclusive technology (no "old military" screens, I guess), so it makes sense that the wealthiest and most powerful nation which has to constantly be out-innovating potential rivals would be the nation to use screens the most.

No, there are old military screens. Very few of the military vessels in Mongoose 2300 aren't new military technology.
 
What was the other end of the scale, advanced composite?

Yeah, it was composite materials.

If armor shouldn't add mass, what should?

Oh no, I'm not saying it shouldn't add mass. I just mean that mass is your enemy in a universe where Newton's laws exist. You want to minimize mass. It's not like seagoing ships where piling armor on isn't that bad because of the nature of seagoing ships where it's hard to get a good speed anyway.

So the idea of piling armor onto a starship should be like piling armor onto an airplane; it's possible to do but everyone hates doing it because of the problems it causes.

I never liked how in original 2300, physical armor was basically so good you wondered why screens existed; piling it on certainly made your ship slower, but the performance degradation was more like seagoing ships - it was possible to get high physical armor ratings while still having a reasonable speed.
 
I never liked how in original 2300, physical armor was basically so good you wondered why screens existed; piling it on certainly made your ship slower, but the performance degradation was more like seagoing ships - it was possible to get high physical armor ratings while still having a reasonable speed.

These are good points, but I thought of it as GDW trying to demonstrate a dynamic universe where things were changing. The old way was 'more armour' which meant slower ships. The new way could be screens.

Of course, for now, the max was 60% chance of damage reduction, at the cost of 36 MW of power, which also means slower speed. So it's not perfect. But it's still developing. Could it be promising? Absolutely. Could it be an evolutionary dead-end, like the Dreadnaught class wet navy ships, all guns and light armour? Absolutely.

Maybe if GDW had stayed alive they'd have come up with their own 2320 or 2330 module, where screens-8 only cost you 16 MW.
 
These are good points, but I thought of it as GDW trying to demonstrate a dynamic universe where things were changing. The old way was 'more armour' which meant slower ships. The new way could be screens.

I don't disagree there. Like the improvement between Old Military and New Military screens in 2300 was very interesting. In fact, the split between Old Civilian, New Civilian, Old Military, New Military was very interesting in 2300 to simulate the march of technology.

For me, the observation was that armor was simply too good in rules as worded.

As mentioned before, the Invasion Sourcebook had an optional rule where the damage multiple from the weapon subtracts from the armor, it's observed that a lot of human stuff can finally crack the "unbeatable Alpha" using even x2 weapons. Of course, that meant that armor 1 and 2 were useless as well.

Though all that said - Old 2300 is old. I think Mong 2300 is the future since it is still evolving and being supported.
 
There is another option.

Use MgT 2300 for the role playing bit, but use Star Cruiser, FF&S and house rules for the ships.

The only criticism I have of MgT 2300 is trying to shoehorn CT ship design into MgT 2300. I hope the next version of MgT 2300 takes a leaf from 2e MgT HG an scraps the CT LBB1-3 legacy for ship design and goes with a modified HG2e based system.
 
For me, the observation was that armor was simply too good in rules as worded.

True.

It was an attempt at sci-fi flavour? The fictional bean-counters thought that screens would have a 60% chance to save millions of livres over the lifetime of the ships?
 
Oh no, I'm not saying it shouldn't add mass. I just mean that mass is your enemy in a universe where Newton's laws exist. You want to minimize mass.

Oh yes, for over 25 years I've been accustomed to designing starships where I have to worry about loaded mass and rated thrust of the drives (for reaction and reactionless). Spreadsheets make the balancing act easier.

I never liked how in original 2300, physical armor was basically so good you wondered why screens existed; piling it on certainly made your ship slower, but the performance degradation was more like seagoing ships - it was possible to get high physical armor ratings while still having a reasonable speed.

I haven't done a detailed study, but in Mongoose 2300, for an equal rating of armor and screens, screens are almost always lighter and the bigger the ship the better the weight savings. The disadvantage is that screens are ablative and armor isn't.
 
Use MgT 2300 for the role playing bit, but use Star Cruiser, FF&S and house rules for the ships.

Before I got Mongoose 2300, I was considering adapting the modular starship system from Transhuman Space.

The only criticism I have of MgT 2300 is trying to shoehorn CT ship design into MgT 2300. I hope the next version of MgT 2300 takes a leaf from 2e MgT HG an scraps the CT LBB1-3 legacy for ship design and goes with a modified HG2e based system.

Honestly, the only excuse for not having volume and mass be separate columns is not wanting to to more addition. Also, maneuver drives should be rated in tons of thrust (which is then divided by loaded masd) rather than by Gs based on drive size to hull size.
 
bean-counters

I'm not sure if it's the rising tide of militarism in our modern world, but I've recently heard a lot of people going on about bean-counters and cost-consciousness somehow hampering the military from "getting the proper tools to get the job done."

Without getting into real-world examples (which would get me a warning from the mod), it doesn't take too much reading of history to realize giving the military massive budgets and low oversight (eg; eliminating the bean counters) is as disastrous as letting "cost consciousness" sap the effectiveness of a military - perhaps even moreso.

By my take for 2300 screens, I feel the screens are actually the opposite of 'cost-conscious committees.' I think it's actually evidence of a (possibly corrupt) Military-Industrial Complex in 2300 (borne out in the case of France by canon 2300 materials). Screens, like Combat Walkers, feel to me to be a very expensive nowhere-near-mature technology has been enthusiastically embraced by military (perhaps with urging by lobbyists from the "industrial" half of Military-Industrial Complex for lucrative contracts) because of their theoretical advantage (and possibly bribes) has been sold to Admirals in slick promotional videos and charts showing theoretical performance numbers. Once France got their first screens on their ships, it became a case of "keeping up with the Jonses" and other navies scrambled to follow suit.

However, it's something of a thing among people who run data analysis that screens don't bear out this effectiveness. They actually aren't "all that" and are a poor replacement for armor in their current state. The really early first generation deployed screens are now being phased out and the second generation is coming in, but screens are still in their rough around the edges stages like the very early generations of heat-seeking air-to-air missiles where cannon were as effective or more effective than missiles in air combat. But missiles sure were cool and expensive, weren't they? Given some more years (possibly decades) of expensive research they no doubt will be great, but not yet.

In this respect, the Kafer War probably gives a lot of credence to screen advocates who can show the astounding effectiveness of Kafer screens and human industry (and intelligence groups) are probably scrambling to get even non-working examples of Kafer screen projectors study how they work so well.

I haven't done a detailed study, but in Mongoose 2300, for an equal rating of armor and screens, screens are almost always lighter and the bigger the ship the better the weight savings. The disadvantage is that screens are ablative and armor isn't.

It's a good idea. It was always one of my complaints of the old 2300 once I had played Star Cruiser for a while. I thought they needed to cap armor values at 8. I think a steep diminishing returns curve for armor would have been good as well. Under such an idea, armor 1 is trivial to get - maybe every ship that carries a human crew has to have armor 1 due to safety regulations. By 3 there starts to be trade-offs. 5 is the highest you can get and still have even mediocre performance. While the rules variant for the Battle of Beowulf in Invasion tried to do this, it also made very low armor values (1 and 2) effectively 0, which always bugged me at some level.
 
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I'm not sure if it's the rising tide of militarism in our modern world, but I've recently heard a lot of people going on about bean-counters and cost-consciousness somehow hampering the military from "getting the proper tools to get the job done."

Probably the term "bean counters" wasn't the best I could have chosen then - for whatever reason, someone in France decided that screens was the way to go for one project. Maybe it caught on as a good idea, maybe other navies tried to keep up with France, but screens are depriving stutterwarp drives of power all across space.
 
Could it be an evolutionary dead-end, like the Dreadnaught class wet navy ships, all guns and light armour?
I think you mean the Invincible-class battlecruisers. Big guns, fast legs, thin armor. And the origin of 'explodable British battlecruiser' rules in naval wargame rules ever since.

HMS Dreadnought, in contrast, was solidly designed to take a punch from her equals.
 
Battlecruisers were designed from the onset to kill cruisers. Battleship guns, cruiser armour and speed.

HMS Invincible and HMS Inflexible were sent to the Falklands in 1914 to hunt down and destroy Admiral Graf Spee's cruiser squadron. When they did catch the German cruisers they stood off outside the range of the German guns and sank them all.

But at Jutland in 1916 they were placed in the line of battle with the expectation they could go toe to toe with the opposing German Battleships and that was disaster.

In the role they were designed for, battlecruisers are ideal. Not being used in that role spelled disaster.
 
The stats of screens you listed clearly put minimal shields within the capabilities of sma ll warships like corvettes and frigates. Energy requirements of 30-35MW is easily doable for a medium warship.

Right now, I feel comfortable putting screens on ships smaller than capitol warships. It might violate the spirit of canon, but not RAW.

It's not that you can't put screens into smaller ships, it a matter of whether the effect achieved by their inclusion doesn't preclude another capability that provides a greater benefit from being fitted in the same space and generating the same mass.

Epicenter00 made the point well. Why spend all the money and space on a screen when in a smaller ship it takes up so much space but provides a limited return on investment?
 
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