• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.

Why pay more for less (from What you like about MGT)

Okay so it attracts a bunch of "Shiny new toy" Zombies. You sure that's an argument FOR Mgt???
Beware, a zombie is trying to eat your brain! Is that what scares people about MgT? :D

Yes. Actually it is not an argument, it is fact. See my earlier post.

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=316423&postcount=25

It is one of the reasons I bought MgT and it is the main reason I am happy with my decision although it's not as simple as "Shiny new toy". Shiny new toys do appeal to most children and playing Traveller is a childish game of make believe, otherwise I'd be playing a game of 'Pay the bills and balance the checkbook'. :p

If a person doesn't own a 'Dingy old toy' do they shop around yard sales for one or just go to their local store and buy a shiny new one? They might even buy a shiny new one if they already own a dingy old one.

Try telling a female that the jewelry she has is all she will ever need and to stop asking for shiny new things. :devil:
 
Last edited:
Speaking of over-generalizations...

<shrug> It's difficult to engage in informal communications without generalizations. Unless, of course, you want to require that each post be equivalent to a legal brief (in which *every* assertion is footnoted).

I don't; I get plenty of that in my day job.

Anyhow, seems to me that the retort "your statement is a generalization" doesn't really get us very far.
 
Beware, a zombie is trying to eat your brain! Is that what scares people about MgT? :D

Yes. Actually it is not an argument, it is fact. See my earlier post.

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=316423&postcount=25

It is one of the reasons I bought MgT and it is the main reason I am happy with my decision although it's not as simple as "Shiny new toy". Shiny new toys do appeal to most children and playing Traveller is a childish game of make believe, otherwise I'd be playing a game of 'Pay the bills and balance the checkbook'. :p

If a person doesn't own a 'Dingy old toy' do they shop around yard sales for one or just go to their local store and buy a shiny new one? They might even buy a shiny new one if they already own a dingy old one.

Try telling a female that the jewelry she has is all she will ever need and to stop asking for shiny new things. :devil:

Actually I don't care about Mgt (anymore), thrown out the few books I had since IMHO it's sub-standard compared to the other versions of Traveller I can get new (PDF) just as well.

That was actually the starting question: Why should one pay MORE (MGT+HG+Spinward+...) than he needs to get the same stuff in the MegaTraveller or TNE version. I still heard no good reason besides "it's new" And "new" means "untested, still buggy and in need of at least one ServicePack" to me. All that even before one gets to Mongoose strongly voiced and clearly stated disregard/dislike of the OTU and therefor the IMHO only thing that might make looking at the Mgt system worth money/time.
 
Last edited:
I own Mongoose - you are dialling direct.

So what's the deal with the guys behind 2000AD??? They implied they bought a majority share. (Seriously, that's the implication I got from their press and yours.)

Well, I am not amazingly keen to post details of the entire agreement :) What do you want to know? I'll tell you what I can. . .

While avoiding requesting private details, the question seems to be … Does ‘someone else’ own a MAJORITY SHARE in Mongoose?
 
Last edited:
All that even before one gets to Mongoose strongly voiced and clearly stated disregard/dislike of the OTU and therefor the IMHO only thing that might make looking at the Mgt system worth money/time.

Where?
(I have not seen ANYTHING like what you describe and would like to read your source firsthand.)

As an irrelevant aside, I find the OTU of the Classic Era too confining and well developed for my personal tastes. I like big white unexplored areas on maps with a signpost "Caution: Now leaving civilization."
 
Last edited:
Not to mention a huge disrespect for other people in the same hobby. . .

I'd like to add -- and I'm sure you'd agree -- that criticism is not necessarily the same thing as disrespect. At least to the extent that "disrespect" is analogous to "insulting".

However, I am losing patience with the retort "MGT is selling well", at least to the extent that this is used to rebut complaints about quality*.

("Quality" in this post = editing, writing, layout, logic, the elegance/suitability of game sequences, etc.)

As a practical matter, this retort tells us very little about the game's quality, even assuming the accuracy of the claim (and since the actual financial statements are not public knowledge, that's what we have to do). After all, by that standard, D&D is the epitome of superb game design.

Indeed, it is well-known in business that quality does *not* necessarily increase the number of items sold. If there's a correlation, it's probably in the opposite direction : Higher Quality = Higher Price = Lower Demand = (hopefully) higher net profit.

Therefore, I don't think that one can effectively answer a criticism about quality by pointing to a large number of units sold. As an aside, I am pleased that the line is doing well. The hobby is not helped by yet another game company going under. I am also personally gratified that Marc is presumably doing well with the license. And at the end of the day, I play the game I want to play, so continued MGT success does not threaten me.

My design skills seem to be competent enough that I can modify a system into something acceptible for me and my friends. And my personal stubborness is high enough that I'll usually make the effort. That said, it normally doesn't take much to make me buy a gaming product.

But you have lost me as a consumer for several reasons:

1. Biggest reason is that the writing and editing was poor -- excruitiating, in the case of Mercenary. I've posted on this here in the past; see them for examples.

2. MGT has not respected established Traveller canon. In many cases, I struggle to avoid the conclusion that it has intentionally disrespected Traveller. Perhaps it isn't realistic to expect the foresight and attention to detail that GDW gave us, but that IS the standard that we're used to. Adding things like shuriken catapults to Traveller is ridiculous...and insulting. And if this kind of tripe is to be excused by the lame "it's optional" excuse, then why not mark it as "optional/non-canonical/silly-but-fun/etc." in the rules? The absence of such an indicator causes me to conclude that the designer, in fact, was ignorant of the source material and that this excuse is a post-hoc rationalization.

3. MGT's design team has failed to impress with the game mechanics (with the notable exception of the character generation system, which is mechanically good, though rather dubious statistically) or with their grasp of weaponry and likely future trends. Or even with established Traveller canon on weapon trends (most of which have not been invalidated by real world tech). Again, Traveller players are accustomed to more informed designers than this. (See other threads for examples).

IMHO "the game sells well" fails to adequately respond to any of these criticisms.

Now, for what it's worth, I think that it's gotta be pretty hard to match CT and MegaTraveller on the things that they got right. But that came with the territory, seems to me.
 
All that even before one gets to Mongoose strongly voiced and clearly stated disregard/dislike of the OTU and therefor the IMHO only thing that might make looking at the Mgt system worth money/time.
Where?
(I have not seen ANYTHING like what you describe and would like to read your source firsthand.)

I haven't read anything explicit like that. But the degree to which MGT seems to contradict the OTU would certainly support an inference that Mongoose is (at best) ambivalent about the OTU.

As an irrelevant aside, I find the OTU of the Classic Era too confining and well developed for my personal tastes. I like big white unexplored areas on maps with a signpost "Caution: Now leaving civilization."

Me too. I don't campaign in the OTU, though my campaign uses most of the OTU technological and social assumptions.

But so far, MGT seems to respect neither the OTU nor its tech/social assumptions.
 
<shrug> It's difficult to engage in informal communications without generalizations. Unless, of course, you want to require that each post be equivalent to a legal brief (in which *every* assertion is footnoted).

I don't; I get plenty of that in my day job.

Anyhow, seems to me that the retort "your statement is a generalization" doesn't really get us very far.


You're not the only one who gets that at work. Which isn't the point. I suppose, GC could have clarified his point by adding the word "insulting"; or possibly "Bombastic", "Inflamatory", or "Self aggrandizing". Obviously one cannot communicate without generalizations - but equally, not all generalizations are equally unavoidable or intentioned. Or do you retract your previous complaints against Anti-Lawyer generalizations ?
 
I haven't read anything explicit like that. But the degree to which MGT seems to contradict the OTU would certainly support an inference that Mongoose is (at best) ambivalent about the OTU.



Me too. I don't campaign in the OTU, though my campaign uses most of the OTU technological and social assumptions.

But so far, MGT seems to respect neither the OTU nor its tech/social assumptions.

I don't get this. I don't see Mongoose disrespecting the OTU. I do see them trying to move the game system beyond the OTU, to increase the usefulness of the books for those who do not use the OTU and thus broaden the appeal of the game. Yes, the books contain, in places, tech that is not based on OTU assumptions. So what? I don't and have never seen them say they "dislike" the Original Traveller Universe. It's been done, that's all. They want to do something different with the Traveller game system. There is a perception that Traveller originally started out to be a more generic system and they are trying to get back to that..or actually to get TO that, as a very good case can be made that the system wasn't as generic as originally thought. Back in 1977, "generic" systems weren't exactly around.

Yes, some changes have been made - every new version of Traveller changes some things. Even T5 does, from what I have been told. I run my game in the OTU and really, none of this impacts my game at all!

It's funny...some of the same people who hate the "reboot" of Traveller seem to like the reboot of Star Trek...

Allen
 
Actually I don't care about Mgt (anymore), thrown out the few books I had since IMHO it's sub-standard compared to the other versions of Traveller I can get new (PDF) just as well.
Don't throw out the books! I'll pay for postage. :)

Often, I have trouble getting my thoughts across.

The things I try to infer by mentioning local stores is
1) Not everybody has easy access to computers or the internet. That leaves a large group of people whose best method of accessing Traveller is via their local store. For them, a pdf, or CD is not an option.
2) Someone that has never heard of Traveller before will only run across the older versions by accident or referral. They will not know about the forums and other Traveller websites. They will most likely not know about the information out there unless they already know about it. Huh? There is no marketing of the old versions that I am aware of. I knew about Traveller and still didn't know about much of the Traveller stuff available via the internet until after I bought MgT.
3) Someone into RPGs and other games might run across Traveller in a store. What version of Traveller do you think they will see?

The types of comments I see knocking MgT as a valid choice seam, to me, to be ignoring new players.

...the starting question: Why should one pay MORE (MGT+HG+Spinward+...) than he needs to get the same stuff in the MegaTraveller or TNE version. I still heard no good reason besides "it's new"
People have stated their reasons. It was a good enough reason for them. Do you think we are lying about why we like it or decided to buy it? If you are not convinced by other peoples reasons, don't buy it. Why do you have such a strong desire to hear what you consider to be a good reason?

Someone may disagree with me, I'm fine with that. But if the same question is repeatedly asked, why be surprised when you keep getting the same honest answer?

Constantly disregarding a persons opinion and questioning them repeatedly makes them feel like they did something wrong and have to explain and defend them self.

Some people choose expensive cars that get worse gas millage, and less passenger and cargo space than others. You may want to know why they chose that car. They give a reason. It's shiny, flashy and sporty looking.

Some people like purple, some, red, some yellow. Would you change what color you like because of what someone else says?

What version of Traveller do you think sold the most copies over the last year? No questioning why. No personal opinion. Just facts.

Owning a version of Traveller that just sits around for me to read when I'm bored because I can't find anyone to play with... My opinion is that is why some people might pay more for less.

Disclaimer: I am in no way attacking anyones personal opinions. People can play Traveller and any other game they want in their way without impeding other peoples ability to have fun. People I quote had something interesting to say that I noticed and at least one of my comments refers to the quote - but which one? Not everything I write is directed at the people I quote. Also, I pull excerpts from the original post - you should go back and read the full post, and the entire thread, so that you don't take the snippet out of context.

EDIT: BTW, if I moved to an area where a different version was played, no matter what version, I would probably acquire it.
 
Last edited:
All that even before one gets to Mongoose strongly voiced and clearly stated disregard/dislike of the OTU and therefor the IMHO only thing that might make looking at the Mgt system worth money/time.

Given that all the publications are vetted and approved by MWM, you may want to think about the fact that you seem to have more regard for the OTU than it's creator and owner.
 
"why pay more for less?"


Here's a reason. MT may or may not be errata ridden and uneccessarily complex; but it is out of print and effectively unavailable. CT may or may not be dated and or in need of a revision which MT wasn't; but it is out of print and effectively unavailable. T4 and T20 yadda yah. One can buy scans and CDs if one is an afficionado; they've been available for years, and have done so much to promote traveller amongst any new players, haven't they ? I mean, I own some of them, its the only way to replace my original read-and-played-to-death LBB's.

If you want to start traveller, what are the options ? Buy a CD from what seems to be little more than some hobbyist site ? Pick up a wad of semi readable scans , assuming any local store carries any of them ? Order them site unseen based on the constant accolades every version gets here at COTI or anywhere online, and be called a Zombie to boot ?


Here's another. It isn't more.
Yes, I suppose MGT counts as more expensive comparing it's costs to garage sale prices for MT....but honestly, add up what the scan/reprints cost for CT+MT and factor in chasing down any errata, finding it in the stores, and then consider and the fact that once you get it, that's it....nothing developed or added in what - fifteen years ? How much hard money, at 35$ per reprint (if you can find it) , at least two each/either(Classic and MT -is MT even available as a phone book ? )

lets see: 70$ US. Or seventy for two CD roms. Pretty comprable to the traveller line thus far as PDF's, and that's comparing the minimum cost of a CT/MT buy with a maximum MGT purchace.

Unless, as I point out, you compare it to garage sale costs, or to the cost of already owning it. Which is pretty absurd, since if you already have CT/MT in whatever form, you can make the comparison yourself, and if you don't have them, its' a tad bit moot, lets say. ....I leave the proof of the latter as an exercise for the reader.

So, I guess the answer is, because when one actually runs the numbers instead of the mouths, the cost is actually pretty close, for any quantitative values; and one can find the new edition, which is still supported and generating new game groups without being a long time online grognard (which, I fear I am, but thats not everybody, now is it ?).


Now, please note, this post says nothing about the quality of the work (on either side) or the worth of the system (on either side), or the playability of the system (either side); and, as a result, my other opinons about MGT cannot be accurately inferred from the above, unless one is trying to be provocative or misleading. But it does answer the OT.
 
Someone may disagree with me, I'm fine with that. But if the same question is repeatedly asked, why be surprised when you keep getting the same honest answer?


Well, obviously, because they weren't interested in getting an answer for anything other than arguing points. The technique in debate is called "A stalking horse".
 
I believe some people are making the assumption that a person has to buy everything that comes out for the version of Traveller they play.

In any gaming group I've been in, not just Traveller, the GM usually has a larger pool of materials they pull from but the players tend to have less, and sometimes none, of the publications.

How much is the Cd/Pdfs? How much is the MgT core rulebook?

I used to play CT with just LBB 1-3. I'd be happy to play MgT with just the core rulebook.

MgT is cheaper, not more expensive. :D
 
Last edited:
I believe some people are making the assumption that you have to buy everything that comes out for the version of Traveller you play.

How much is the Cd/Pdfs? How much is the MgT core rulebook?

I used to play CT with just LBB 1-3. I'd be happy to play MgT with just the core rulebook.

MgT is cheaper, not more expensive.


DING ! Correct !

DING ! DING DING !

Nominated for the "Starburst for extreme conciseness on a point verbosely obfuscated by Captainjack"
 
Back
Top