Why pay more for less (from What you like about MGT)

[robject]

That was actually the starting question: Why should one pay MORE (MGT+HG+Spinward+...) than he needs to get the same stuff in the MegaTraveller or TNE version.

How about: I dislike MegaTraveller and TNE, but like MGT.

This is officially a religious war. I suggest we edit our OTU profiles accordingly.

And: people who play face to face, honest-to-goodness role-playing games don't want out of print material from bankrupt has-been game companies who had their heyday twenty years ago.

I don't see Mongoose disrespecting the OTU. I do see them trying to move the game system beyond the OTU, to increase the usefulness of the books for those who do not use the OTU and thus broaden the appeal of the game.

This is also how I see it, and I think it's cool. I can easily recognize and ignore the pieces that are not OTU, when running the OTU.

Yes, some changes have been made - every new version of Traveller changes some things. Even T5 does, from what I have been told. I run my game in the OTU and really, none of this impacts my game at all!

Preserving whatever there is of consistency about the OTU is important, but canon is never a good excuse to try to bully someone around.

 

[Kilgs]

Many thanks for letting us know. May I ask, what was it about Scouts you did not like, as that book is generally regarded as a good one?

Also, if the core rules worked for you, what has changed?

The game is getting watered down. Scouts provided very little information that was of any caliber or depth. Too much generic+too little new stuff is diluting the product. I'm hoping that Agent will be a change...

 

[far-trader]

Really?

I believe some people are making the assumption that a person has to buy everything that comes out for the version of Traveller they play.

True. Totally agree.

In any gaming group I've been in, not just Traveller, the GM usually has a larger pool of materials they pull from but the players tend to have less, and sometimes none, of the publications.

Not been my experience but certainly there's no reason a player needs any books. Which makes some of the arguments about unavailable material silly besides being factually wrong in some cases.

How much is the Cd/Pdfs? How much is the MgT core rulebook?

I used to play CT with just LBB 1-3. I'd be happy to play MgT with just the core rulebook.

MgT is cheaper, not more expensive.

But the above is twisting my concept of connectedness and is flat out wrong...

DING ! Correct !

DING ! DING DING !

Nominated for the "Starburst for extreme conciseness on a point verbosely obfuscated by Captainjack"

...though you managed to bamboozle captainjack it seems

You want concise (and factual):

Mongoose Publishing Traveller Main Rulebook: US$39.95 on Amazon (free super saver shipping). Total cost US$39.95

FFE CT The Basic Books 1-3 US$12.00 from Marc (shipping US$5.00). Total cost US$17.00.

Fact: CT much cheaper. Mongoose not.

Comparing apples to apples. After all CG said "I used to play CT with just LBB 1-3. I'd be happy to play MgT with just the core rulebook." So that's what I compared. Heck even comparing FFE full reprint book of CT Books 0-8 (more material covered than Mongoose's Main Rulebook CT is still cheaper (US$33.00).

I see no way to honestly say that Mongoose is cheaper.

And you certainly can't begin to compare the CT CD Rom to the Mongoose Basic book for material covered, though the price is about the same (not counting printing but I just use it on the computer anyway).

I'm not faulting Mongoose for it's pricing. I'm just correcting a misconception or two that seem to be taken and promoted as fact.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Here is a reason which some have indicated but I will give a little detail.

Some people like an actual book that they can bring to gaming sessions.

Money
As pointed out previously:
The old hard copy versions are no longer in print and hard to find.
The old versions can be printed out.
There is a cost to printing out older versions.
Printers are maybe $50-100.

There is a cost for binding the pages.

Ink is expensive. For my one printer, ink is $23 and lasts 200 - 500 pages depending on quality of print and other variables.

Please don't slam my prices. I know they can be different for different printers. Not everyone owns the same printer or even owns a printer.

I also don't know the costs or quality of having it professionally printed - if it is even possible. I would think that any quality printer would not touch material that is copyrighted. In my case, the closest place to get printing done is close to 2 gallons of gas round trip. Would I be able to afford to get it all printed at once? How many trips? Too many variables.

The point is simply that using the cost of the non print product only is a large misrepresentation.

Time
How much time will be spent printing, hole punching, putting pages into binders, and labeling the binders so that you know what is inside.

Space
Unless you are lucky enough to own a more expensive double sided printer, your printed "books" will have twice the pages making it thicker than the traditional publication. Your binding will most likely make the final result wider than traditional publications.

Quality
The print and binding quality will not be as good as a printed publication unless you shell out more money. I've heard stories that the pages are scanned, and some have poor quality. I've also heard that there are pages missing and other errors. Traditional printer paper is of lower quality than most publications.

 

[far-trader]

No problem with your numbers above CosmicGamer, my point is that both the CT Basic 3 Books (as a single bound volume, very nice), and the full collected reprint of CT LBB 0-8 (another high quality product) are available, currently, in print, and cheaper than Mongoose Traveller Main Rulebook, including shipping. In the US at least. Other countries may vary slightly, but the price of the CT Basic 3 (in 1), even with international shipping is still cheaper than the cover price of the Mongoose book for basically the same game. Contrary to the presumptions many seem to hold. That's all I wanted to correct. I included the price of the CT CD being equal merely as a footnote, since it includes much more than the Mongoose Traveller Main Rulebook so no fair comparison can be made even ignoring the cost to print, which I think is silly, you buy PDF format for the portability, searchability and on screen use imo, not to print it out and put it on the shelf or play with it from paper

 

[aramis]

Why I feel MGT is...
Not Respectful of the OTU:
The added restrictions by law level (they invalidate many CT adventures).
They changed the base cost relationships of passengers to cargo (J1 ships don't make as much as they do per ton on freight, AND still take more hassle than freight...)
Specifically referred to it only as the "Original Traveller Universe", which is inconsistent with the usage in TNE, T4, T20, GT, GTIW, and HT.


Not respectful of the fan base
Most of the above were pointed out during the playtest.
Every product to date that I've seen has had major errata issues. Several have been recalled due to them.*
Subsidiary product not up to quality of core book**
Plus the above Not Respectful of the OTU.

*Which essentially means, we're not done editing, but we'll release a bad book, and expect a percentage of them returned, and then sell the corrected one later.
** Aside from the econ issues, the core book is decent, now that it's revised several times. The quality of the rules material is lower in the supplements.

HOWEVER, it's still the only new traveller going.

As for costing less...

Initial cost for core rules for MGT: $22 as PDF (35 as a book), getting:
Mainworlds only
Adventure class Ship Design (but no other vehicle design)
Badly broken econ for ships.
Personal combat
Ship Combat

For $35, one can get MT on CD, getting
System generation
vehicle, small craft, full range ship classes
less broken ship econ
personal AND mass combat using the same process
Ship Combat.

To add mass combat to MGT, one needs another $15 for Merc PDF
To add ships over 2KTd, $15 for HG PDF
To add vehicles, another book that will be a $15 PDF
To add system generation, another book that will probably be a $15 PDF.

 

[dmccoy1693]

All a casual player REALLY needs to play MGT (if they're going to own one book and no more) is Book 0: Introduction to Traveller. Available straight from Mongoose (no Amazon discount) for $10. MGT is cheaper.

It has the basics of the chargen and can look over the Ref's shoulder for the rest of the careers, the full skills and combat section. Players don't need to know how to create worlds or ships or encounters or similar. Why make them pay for it.

 

[CosmicGamer]

You want concise (and factual):

Mongoose Publishing Traveller Main Rulebook: US$39.95 on Amazon (free super saver shipping). Total cost US$39.95

FFE CT The Basic Books 1-3 US$12.00 from Marc (shipping US$5.00). Total cost US$17.00.

Fact: CT much cheaper. Mongoose not.

Comparing apples to apples.

Traveller Pocket Edition US $13.57 on Amazon. Ok, no free shipping since it is under $25.

Traveller Pocket Edition is a bite-sized rulebook that nonetheless packs in all the rules of its full-sized counterpart.

Sorry, I have no explanation for the difference in price.

The Mongoose products are also available in some local stores but I can't provide their pricing at this time.

When I bought my full sized book approx a year ago, it was just under $30.

Even after a year on this site, I was unaware that you could get just the CT Books 1-3. The all inclusive product is what people usually mention.

After all CG said "I used to play CT with just LBB 1-3. I'd be happy to play MgT with just the core rulebook." So that's what I compared.

I'd like to clear things up. I was in no way trying to compare the pricing of CT to MgT. I only used CT as an example of a Traveller version that had playable core rules that I enjoyed.

Does MT have a similar, unbloated, variety available? If so, at what cost?

 

[far-trader]

Traveller Pocket Edition US $13.57 on Amazon. Ok, no free shipping since it is under $25. Sorry, I have no explanation for the difference in price.

Ah yes, I'd forgotten about the Pocket Edition, thank you for the reminder. A better and fairer comparison to the CT 3 in 1, but still CT is cheaper (though not by much).

As for MT, you're probably stuck with shopping second hand or eBay (but could easily get the basic three books for about $30 I'd guess, it's been a while since I took notice so I'm not sure) or getting pdfs which as noted is no comparison (well, except as aramis did, comparing pdf to pdf)

Even after a year on this site, I was unaware that you could get just the CT Books 1-3.

Don't feel bad not knowing. This site hasn't really been running right for longer than that or it might have come to your notice sooner. It's not even always that easy to find on the FFE site. And neither site has really done much product promotion to speak of. It's more word of mouth than anything.

 

[CosmicGamer]

There is one simple reason why I'm happy with my choice of MgT. MgT is the only version of Traveller that I have found people in my area playing.

For some reason people have been glossing over this and keep repeating that they have seen no valid reason for buying MgT. They state price and quantity of material. Since these were the only things some people seamed to understand, I thought I'd try to explain reasons why, for some, the costs were not as exceptional and why some people might not need all the material.

There are many factors, and I'm not trying to say mongoose is definitively better at any of them. That is up to the individual.

 

[BillDowns]

For a price on MGT, try $27.97 plus $3.95 shipping.

http://cgi.ebay.com/TRAVELLER-RPG_W0QQitemZ310138484854QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4835b1b876&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A570%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A0%7C293%3A2%7C294%3A50

My local store does not carry MGT

 

[Kilgs]

One pretty simple reason that I think Mongoose Traveller is better... I think it's better. There are pieces to nitpick and complain about but I like it better than CT overall. I don't have MT and have no interest in TNE so my opinion is confined to the books I do have (most of CT published works except JTAS).

It's a better game for me. It works better. Feels better and makes more sense. YMMV but I'm not trying to shove my favorite version down anyone's throat...

 

[dmccoy1693]

Why I feel MGT is...
Not Respectful of the OTU:

My thoughts:

>>The added restrictions by law level (they invalidate many CT adventures).
Um... You're kidding right? They modified the law levels and they invalidated adventures? Change the law level to whatever you need it to be for the adventure. No adventure is ever suppose to be "perfect" for your gaming group; you should always modify it to fit your group. Law levels were never suppose to be a be-all-end-all word on law but an approximation for roughly how tough the law is on a world. A world might be LL 1 but be a 9 in terms of landing procedures. It would still be a 1 on the planet code.

>>They changed the base cost relationships of passengers to cargo (J1 ships don't make as much as they do per ton on freight, AND still take more hassle than freight...)
So, change it. No reason why you can't swap out a CT table to get the cost right as you feel.

Not respectful of the fan base

>>Most of the above were pointed out during the playtest.
So if they had 2-3 people that said the Law Level needed work and 2-3 dozen people that said that Law Level is great, who should Mongoose listen to? As someone that saw something that they suggested during the playtest make it into the final product, I can honestly say, they listened.

>>Every product to date that I've seen has had major errata issues. Several have been recalled due to them.*
As a writer and a publisher and a guy that makes tech manuals for a day job, I never really understood this complaint I've commonly heard in the RPG industry regardless of company. Game books are written by humans. Humans make mistakes. Writers, editors, layout people, everyone. Mistakes happen. Editors tend to be caught between the desire to anally get things right and the everpresent deadline that is closer than they'd like (no matter how far away it is). Whenever you're assembling a layout file, it is remarkably easy to open up the wrong text file to copy the listings into the layout. It happens. Mongoose has corrected it. Someone has a bad day, family issues, poor night's sleep, etc and they miss stuff they'd normally catch on a better day. It happens.

Take the book with the most errors: the Babylon 5 book. 25-29 pages of errata in a 200 page book. That might seem bad, but that's only 12-15%. And that's their worst book. I bet the weather man wishes he was only 12-15% of the time wrong. He'd be the best weatherman in existance. 15% wrong is a B by american grading standards. Pretty damn good I'd say.

 

[Allensh]

Why I feel MGT is...
Not Respectful of the OTU:

Specifically referred to it only as the "Original Traveller Universe", which is inconsistent with the usage in TNE, T4, T20, GT, GTIW, and HT.

And in those versions, they were not trying to market multiple "universes" (i.e. fictional settings) under those rules systems. Since Mongoose is, and they want their other settings to be seen as "official" for the new rules too, Original Traveller Universe makes more sense than the use of the word "Official". I still fail to see how this denotes lack of respect.

Allen

 

[atpollard]

How about: I dislike MegaTraveller and TNE, but like MGT.

This is officially a religious war.

I agree that it seems to have become a religious war (lots of talking PAST each other).


Point of inquiry:
Given the similarity in game mechanics, how can one hate MegaTraveller and love MongooseTraveller?

Is it a setting issue?
(The OTU is VERY different between MT and MgT - no civil war).


Personal Observation:
I've played Classic, Mega, T20 and Mongoose Traveller (plus a few 'just roll some dice and make it up as you go' variants) and they all felt like Traveller to me. There are things I found clever in each of them, but at the end of the day it was never about the rules ... It has always been about a group of people and a shared experience of "let's pretend".

 

[aramis]

Does MT have a similar, unbloated, variety available? If so, at what cost?

The MT Player's guide is available for $10
It include full CGen, combat rules, and psionics rules, as well as the core rules for the task system. It also includes the map of the Marches.

The Imperial Encyclopedia is also available, for $10
It includes the library data, Trade rules, stock ships, equipment, and prices, as well as the UWP listing for the marches

The Ref's manual (also $10) adds vehicle design (excluding aircraft), System generation, expands combat to include vehicles, adds ship-to-ship combat using a variant of CT High Guard, animal encounters, people encounters, expanded details of the task system.

The Referee's Companion ($7) adds mass combat, research, commo rules, forms, advice on large scale campaigns, more background/setting data.


The Core Rules Bundle is $26, and includes all four.

The CD adds 8 more books, (RebSB, COACC, Knightfall, FSotSI, Hard Times, Assignment Vigilante, Astrogator's Guide to Diaspora Sector, Arrival Vengeance), which are mostly $7 each (FSotSI is $3, and overpriced at that!), and runs $35.

So a player can get in at $10, a GM at $25, or a gung-ho everything at $35. That's all PDF, but it's readable scans (lamer OCR, but the scan is shown, not the OCR).

 

[far-trader]

There is one simple reason why I'm happy with my choice of MgT. MgT is the only version of Traveller that I have found people in my area playing.

That's a perfectly good reason. I just have doubts and issues with the reason some seem to say this is so. Such as the repeated "nobody wants to play that old game, they want the game that is in print". What should it matter to the player? They don't need, shouldn't even know for the most part, every little detail of the rules for any rpg. If I say "Hey let's play some Traveller." the response of prospective players shouldn't be "What book do I have to buy?" or "As long as it's Mongoose Traveller." All I need is for them to know that it is a sci-fi rpg set in (an) Imperium with Jump Drive, Free-Traders, Nobles, and Pirates. (I think that covers my minimum "It's Traveller" definition). Anything they "need" to know beyond that I will tell them

For some reason people have been glossing over this and keep repeating that they have seen no valid reason for buying MgT.

I haven't really been seeing that here. It's probably a perspective issue though. As in ours differ and the truth is something else.

For some it's the desire to try something new. For some who did and found little new they wonder why they did. I know I'm questioning my purchase and I paid half-price during the recent sale. But I'm not done giving it a chance yet since I've not finished looking at it closely. It's just disappointing that the little I have looked at has been so overall unfulfilling so far. Perhaps there's some crunchy goodness I've yet to find to balance or tip the scale I'm hopeful but it's been a bit of a roller-coaster ride (upupup that's interesting... no they didn't downdowndown... ).

 

[captainjack]

Traveller Pocket Edition US $13.57 on Amazon. Ok, no free shipping since it is under $25. Sorry, I have no explanation for the difference in price.

Comparing highest possible price for one, to the only price available for the other would be my best guess.

The Mongoose products are also available in some local stores but I can't provide their pricing at this time.

generally cover to 80% of cover around here.

When I bought my full sized book approx a year ago, it was just under $30.

Even after a year on this site, I was unaware that you could get just the CT Books 1-3. The all inclusive product is what people usually mention. I'd like to clear things up. I was in no way trying to compare the pricing of CT to MgT. I only used CT as an example of a Traveller version that had playable core rules that I enjoyed.

The CT collection, (which I too had no idea was still available is FFE000) -12.00 plus from FFE, if one can find it -and, AFAIK, not available in stores. I've bnever seen it amongst about five FLGS in the last few years...
So, pricing it out.....
The Basic Books 1-2-3
Total:$12.00
Enter ship-to ZIP Code:
Shipping and handling to XXXXX (change): $5.50

Total with Shipping: $17.50 USD


For which you get all the same sections, plus less character types, a much more abstract personal combat system; and no vehicle rules.

So, from an online site (one of many):
MGT pocket traveller:
Items: $13.57
Shipping & Handling: $3.99
Total Before Tax: $17.56 (no tax)

Oh look. CT is six whole pennies less. *
And functionally unavailable, unless one already is pretty familiar with traveller;. So, technically, one can say it's cheaper, if one doesn't care to ever actually buy it..

* unless you live in illinois and have to pay sales tax.

As for MT - Yes, you can get more (errataless) material on the CD, for approximately 35$ ; plus around 1c/page printing at print store, or 100-400.00 for the hardware to read and or print it; or one could print it at work for free, but then shoplifting MGT is similalry free.........

Does MT have a similar, unbloated, variety available? If so, at what cost?

No. But, as mentioned, it also lacks any of the needed eratta. So, it ischeaper, if actually playing isn't an issue.

Honestly, I'm kinda astonished at how MT is given a pass on both eratta, canon failures ,broken systems and disrespecting the OTU as compared to MGT. I mean, just in terms of respecting the OTU, MT killed it , right ?

Edit: Aramis, where do you get MT products at those prices ? Are they still in remainder bins ? But, yes, if you want to play shattered imperium setting, MT is the way to go; But, if one wants a general basic rulesset - which is the intent of MgT (and CT) I'm unconvinced that MT is better or at least less setting bound- even then, ....MT still requires say - 20.00 to get enough to run a game (Player + GM guide, your prices) ....if one has the errata. Anfd can find 'em. Okay, MgT basic is ...oh wait. Its cheaper (13.49) -for less, granted. But wait -isn't that what cheaper is about ?

Look. I love CT too, as well as T4 but mostly dislike MT and TNE (and, actually the D20 part of T20). But exactly one of them are in print barely), one other is available in a CD from the Authors website, and nowhere else. So, perhaps, to a new player, MGT is (somewhat) less for (somewhat)more - which is decisive, I suppose, if you want to consider the convenience of actually being able to buy them....

 

[CosmicGamer]

...Book 0: Introduction to Traveller. Available straight from Mongoose (no Amazon discount) for $10. MGT is cheaper.

The pdf version is currently $3.96 on DriveThruRPG.

 

[aramis]

Actually, MT, TNE, T4, and CT are available via DTRPG, as well as via CD from FFE.

Many people don't print PDF's of games, and if you've posted on here, you ALREADY have a reading device.

Also, using acrobat, one can print a half-sized MT (5.5x8.5) and cut the print costs way down, at a minor inconvinience of small print. (Yes, its readable. Heck, it's readable on the 4x5" screen of my Ebook reader...)

I made certain to compare PDF to PDF...