Why pay more for less (from What you like about MGT)

[captainjack]

Actually, MT, TNE, T4, and CT are available via DTRPG, as well as via CD from FFE.

Many people don't print PDF's of games, and if you've posted on here, you ALREADY have a reading device.

Also, using acrobat, one can print a half-sized MT (5.5x8.5) and cut the print costs way down, at a minor inconvinience of small print. (Yes, its readable. Heck, it's readable on the 4x5" screen of my Ebook reader...)

I made certain to compare PDF to PDF...

Okay, I give. If you can run a game from a PDF without a laptop, kindle, or workstation, or from a halfsize print, who am I to argue that Megatraveller is a better buy with which to play Megatraveller.

Still, for a basic starter, a 20.00 pdf for MT and you get a bunchastuff; and 13.95 for a hardcopy Mgt or 12.00 for a CT hardcopy and you do get less stuff, but mostly with regards to details (see, Mgt core covers all the same topics, mostly, just at a less detailed level). Obviously, if one honestly feels that the detail and accuracy MT is renowned for is what traveller is about, and one has no need whatsoever to print it out, and a convenient way to view it otherwise, it's the way to go......

 

[Supplement Four]

It's funny...some of the same people who hate the "reboot" of Traveller seem to like the reboot of Star Trek...

You infer that we don't like change.

Change can be good, or bad.

The reboot of Batman was good. The reboot of Star Trek is great. The reboot of Bond was FANTASTIC.

But, the reboot of Traveller into MGT? Not so much.

MGT = the reboot of Planet of the Apes or Lost In Space or The Shadow.

What we'd like the reboot to be is akin to Batman, Bond, and Trek.

It's about quality, Allen. Quality of the reboot.

We don't dislike MTG because it is a reboot. We dislike it because it's a reboot that ain't that good.

We want Alien/Aliens. We're getting Aliens 3/Alien Resurrection.

 

[aramis]

Jack: As a general rule, I'm buying ALL my RPGs in PDF, not on dead tree. I have an ebook reader, and a laptop, and a printer, none purchased specifically for gaming, and for me, there's no added expense.

If you have a computer, you can read the PDF. There is even a PDF reader available for some OLD hardware... one can compile PDF readers for Apple II GS hardware...

I don't need the game open every minute to run the game, either.

3 of my last 4 campaigns were, in fact, run without printing out the whole game I was running (Mouse Guard and Burning Empires). I ran MGT playtest from 5x8" booklets, printed out from the A4 sized PDFs. No problem for any of my players on that score. (The T&C rules... whole 'nother matter.) BTVS I ran with it open on my laptop.

To Run MT, I print out: a 2 page CGen spread (consisting of a retype of the 6 pages of careers, plus education options); 12 pages of combat tables, and the a copy of T&C (6pp) and the map (1p) and world list (5pp). Most of this I printed out years ago, using a photocopier, and have used since. But for the actual rules, I have them on my Laptop and my PRS505.... and when I need to look up rules, I can. Mind you, I've got 4 PM's, 5 IEs, 3 RM's, 2 RC's, 2 RebSB's, 1 COACC, 2 101Vehicles, and already sold my spares of V&V and S&A.... but when I run MT, they don't hit the table anymore.

Fewer trees killed, and my cost per page is about 3¢ to print, on an inkjet I bought for work related efforts (and took a writeoff for), from a laptop purchased as a requisite for my Master's degree program (also a writeoff), and the Ebook reader received as a father's day present. I actually use it for novels, as well, and for church (weekly propers, vespers, DL pewbook).

 

[tbeard1999]

You're not the only one who gets that at work. Which isn't the point. I suppose, GC could have clarified his point by adding the word "insulting"; or possibly "Bombastic", "Inflamatory", or "Self aggrandizing". Obviously one cannot communicate without generalizations - but equally, not all generalizations are equally unavoidable or intentioned. Or do you retract your previous complaints against Anti-Lawyer generalizations ?

I don't think I've complainted about anti-lawyer generalizations. I may have considered them lame, predictable, childish and nowhere near as good as the ones I get in the Real World. But I don't recall complaining about them. Pointing and laughing, yes. Complaining, no.

Anyhow, my point is that "that's a generalization" isn't much of a rebuttal, since all it does is state a fact that most sentient beings already grok.

 

[tbeard1999]

I don't get this.

Hardly shocking, since you typically leap head first into *any* criticism of MGT.

I don't see Mongoose disrespecting the OTU. I do see them trying to move the game system beyond the OTU, to increase the usefulness of the books for those who do not use the OTU and thus broaden the appeal of the game.

So, you don't mind shuriken catapults and other absurd military tech, then?

And other than allowing someone to lamely recreate portions of WH40K, how does this really "broaden" anything? (Except to expose the hapless MGT player to well-deserved ridicule from WH40K players, which must really hurt...)

Yes, the books contain, in places, tech that is not based on OTU assumptions. So what? I don't and have never seen them say they "dislike" the Original Traveller Universe.

Seems pretty clear to me that there are other ways to demonstrate a lack of regard than by flatly stating it.

In any event, I think that it is a reasonable inference that MGT's design team has little regard for (or knowledge of) the OTU, or of the baseline assumptions that have been part of Traveller for the last 32 years.

It's been done, that's all. They want to do something different with the Traveller game system.

The problem is that Mongoose trumpets old-school Traveller appeal in its advertising. So if you are correct, then they are liars.

Of course, I think that your rationale is weak and ill-supported by the facts. Candidly, I don't think that the MGT design team knows enough about the OTU (or modern weaponry for that matter) to make an informed decision about changing it. I think that they are throwing anything and everything science fictiony into MGT in a desparate attempt to create a profitable product. <shrug> Who knows; it might work. But MGT is not a quality product in any meaningful sense of the word IMHO. From mediocre mechanics to appalling writing and editing to shockingly amateurish layout, the product line exudes mediocrity.

I mean, come on...you're actually defending shuriken catapults in Traveller. <shakes head>

It's funny...some of the same people who hate the "reboot" of Traveller seem to like the reboot of Star Trek...

As one of those folks, I'd say the difference is that one reboot (MGT) is amateurish, ill-considered, disrespectful and of dubious quality. The other is the exact opposite.

Since all reboots are not created equal. it doesn't seem very complicated to me why fans might like the latter and detest the former.

Of course, disrespect for the OTU is merely one of several reasons I criticize MGT. Far more important is the generally appalling writing and editing (or lack thereof). Mercenary is my favorite example of some of the worst writing/editing of a professional gaming product, so here are some samples -- that were RANDOMLY discovered (I closed my eyes and randomly found a page and put my finger on a paragraph):

When soldiers began to carry powerful energy weapons that can punch through vehicle armor, warfare took a turn back toward older styles of fighting -- the marching forces of trained infantry.

The people with the bigger and better guns were getting ahead in the world, so a good mercenary headquarters look like an engineer's workshop half of the time.

Although the actual credit value of a ticket's compensation is almost always the main wage an employee can earn, but many try to get additional compensations in the form of material gains.

The book is filled with this kind of gibberish.

 

[tbeard1999]

Given that all the publications are vetted and approved by MWM, you may want to think about the fact that you seem to have more regard for the OTU than it's creator and owner.

Which does nothing to get MGT off the hook, even if true.

MGT fails on its own merits (or lack thereof). It also fails in a comparison to previous editions of Traveller, of course. But critically, it just isn't a very impressive product, so far.

IMHO of course.

 

[tbeard1999]

Well, obviously, because they weren't interested in getting an answer for anything other than arguing points. The technique in debate is called "A stalking horse".

<Irony meter explodes>

I'm pretty certain that the pro-MGT element wins no prizes for reason or logic either.

 

[captainjack]

I don't think I've complainted about anti-lawyer generalizations. I may have considered them lame, predictable, childish and nowhere near as good as the ones I get in the Real World. But I don't recall complaining about them. Pointing and laughing, yes. Complaining, no.

Anyhow, my point is that "that's a generalization" isn't much of a rebuttal, since all it does is state a fact that most sentient beings already grok.

Well, you may have a point when you add pointing and laughing. Still calling a comment out as being an insult seems like a complaint, but I suppose it is just pointing it out in context. Fair nuff.

Still, you don't disagree that there are degrees of both usefulness and intention in generalizations...so good enough.

 

[captainjack]

Which does nothing to get MGT off the hook, even if true.

MGT fails on its own merits (or lack thereof). It also fails in a comparison to previous editions of Traveller, of course. But critically, it just isn't a very impressive product, so far.

IMHO of course.

Mostly refrerring to the "respect the OTU" argument, not the gameplay or quality. I'm just suggesting that if one has more respect for a creation than its creator does, possibly its time to find another hobby.

 

[captainjack]

<Irony meter explodes>

I'm pretty certain that the pro-MGT element wins no prizes for reason or logic either.

Irony as opposed to what ? I'll happily be corrected if a stalking horse argument isn't what the situation resembles; if others have done it, regardless of sides, its still a lame technique. Judge me on the facts of my post, not those who preceed me.

 

[tbeard1999]

Mostly refrerring to the "respect the OTU" argument, not the gameplay or quality. I'm just suggesting that if one has more respect for a creation than its creator does, possibly its time to find another hobby.

I disgree. Candidly, MM's opinion on the OTU is irrelevant to *my* enjoyment of it. Gene Roddenberry pretty much disavowed most of Star Trek TOS (assuming that the lame, UN-In-Space Wimp Generation is indicative of his later attitudes). Yet I still enjoy ST:TOS.

George Lucas retconned a lot of garbage into the Star Wars series. Yet I still call the first movie "Star Wars" and enjoy it on its own terms (along with the superb Empire Strikes Back).

So...I think you're trying too hard to excuse MGT's apparent lack of concern (or knowledge) of the OTU.

And since MGT's advertising emphasizes fidelity to the original, it is entirely reasonable to criticize it for failure on that point.

 

[tbeard1999]

Irony as opposed to what ? I'll happily be corrected if a stalking horse argument isn't what the situation resembles; if others have done it, regardless of sides, its still a lame technique. Judge me on the facts of my post, not those who preceed me.

Not interested in rhetorical theory. I get plenty of the Real Thing in my day job.

I think my point stands on its own -- there's little intellectual honesty in implying that the MGT critics are being uniquely disengenuous. The MGt fans are at least as bad IMHO.

 

[captainjack]

Jack: As a general rule, I'm buying ALL my RPGs in PDF, not on dead tree. I have an ebook reader, and a laptop, and a printer, none purchased specifically for gaming, and for me, there's no added expense.

If you have a computer, you can read the PDF. There is even a PDF reader available for some OLD hardware... one can compile PDF readers for Apple II GS hardware...

I don't need the game open every minute to run the game, either.

3 of my last 4 campaigns were, in fact, run without printing out the whole game I was running (Mouse Guard and Burning Empires). I ran MGT playtest from 5x8" booklets, printed out from the A4 sized PDFs. No problem for any of my players on that score. (The T&C rules... whole 'nother matter.) BTVS I ran with it open on my laptop.

To Run MT, I print out: a 2 page CGen spread (consisting of a retype of the 6 pages of careers, plus education options); 12 pages of combat tables, and the a copy of T&C (6pp) and the map (1p) and world list (5pp). Most of this I printed out years ago, using a photocopier, and have used since. But for the actual rules, I have them on my Laptop and my PRS505.... and when I need to look up rules, I can. Mind you, I've got 4 PM's, 5 IEs, 3 RM's, 2 RC's, 2 RebSB's, 1 COACC, 2 101Vehicles, and already sold my spares of V&V and S&A.... but when I run MT, they don't hit the table anymore.

Fewer trees killed, and my cost per page is about 3¢ to print, on an inkjet I bought for work related efforts (and took a writeoff for), from a laptop purchased as a requisite for my Master's degree program (also a writeoff), and the Ebook reader received as a father's day present. I actually use it for novels, as well, and for church (weekly propers, vespers, DL pewbook).

Fine. I conceed this part of the point, and not sarcastically, or Ironically. Your point is that MT is the cheaper way to go for playing Megatraveller. As compared to MgT ? I'll allow that certainly MT gives one more bulk for similar costs to the core rules, which seem to be somewhat cheaper for less bulk.The difference in price though, when comparing CT and MT basics to MgT basics seems trivial for my use, and feels like straining at gnats. If one really doesn't want to buy MgT, 13.99 will be far too expensive no matter what; in all truth, its how I feel about more than a few editions of traveller or traveller products.

 

[captainjack]

Not interested in rhetorical theory. I get plenty of the Real Thing in my day job.

I think my point stands on its own -- there's little intellectual honesty in implying that the MGT critics are being uniquely disengenuous. The MGt fans are at least as bad IMHO.

Actually, I'm just implying that one particular poster might be being disengenuous in one particular post. Make that a group attribution if you wish, or use poor behavior by a group to excuse individual behavior if you will, Ty. But I'm surprised if thats the point you want to make.

 

[captainjack]

I disgree. Candidly, MM's opinion on the OTU is irrelevant to *my* enjoyment of it. Gene Roddenberry pretty much disavowed most of Star Trek TOS (assuming that the lame, UN-In-Space Wimp Generation is indicative of his later attitudes). Yet I still enjoy ST:TOS.

George Lucas retconned a lot of garbage into the Star Wars series. Yet I still call the first movie "Star Wars" and enjoy it on its own terms (along with the superb Empire Strikes Back).

So...I think you're trying too hard to excuse MGT's apparent lack of concern (or knowledge) of the OTU.

And since MGT's advertising emphasizes fidelity to the original, it is entirely reasonable to criticize it for failure on that point.

No, actually I was speaking off the cuff, without thinking it thru too much. You have a good point, particulalry in the Star wars examples and ST. I'd delete it, but given the quotes, that seems silly.

So, meh. I guess its not a big issue to me one way or the other. I'm not even sure if I can read the MgT otu without menatlly correcting or realigning things to the way I want it anymore -and the same for TNE and MT or any traveller product. I really don't think I have the same definition of fidelity that you and some others want. Which is mainly why I'm discussing the price issue, rather than the quality.

 

[tbeard1999]

Actually, I'm just implying that one particular poster might be being disengenuous in one particular post. Make that a group attribution if you wish, or use poor behavior by a group to excuse individual behavior if you will, Ty. But I'm surprised if thats the point you want to make.

Since you used "they", I assumed it was a group assessment:

Well, obviously, because they weren't interested in getting an answer for anything other than arguing points. The technique in debate is called "A stalking horse".

But if you intended it to be a comment on a single poster, I'll accept that clarification and withdraw my point.

 

[tbeard1999]

No, actually I was speaking off the cuff, without thinking it thru too much. You have a good point, particulalry in the Star wars examples and ST. I'd delete it, but given the quotes, that seems silly.

Oh, no problem. I do that myself.

So, meh. I guess its not a big issue to me one way or the other. I'm not even sure if I can read the MgT otu without menatlly correcting or realigning things to the way I want it anymore -and the same for TNE and MT or any traveller product. I really don't think I have the same definition of fidelity that you and some others want. Which is mainly why I'm discussing the price issue, rather than the quality.

Well, note that fidelity is only one of my criticisms (and not the major one). Actually, given the massive pile of unplayed RPG stuff that litters my study, it's really pretty hard to get on my "won't buy" list. MGT has done that, although there's always the chance that I'll change my mind.

Price doesn't really enter into it for me. First, gaming is an amazingly cheap hobby by adult standards. It would be nearly impossible to match the cost of golf or bass fishing with RPGs IMHO unless you indiscriminately bought literally everything produced. Second, if you do play a game, the hourly entertainment cost is minimal. Third, price is an amazingly elsatic concept. Do you include the price of printing the game when evaluating CD-ROM price? How much is the ability to do electronic searches and easily copy text and charts worth? Etc.

 

[GypsyComet]

So, you don't mind shuriken catapults and other absurd military tech, then?

In a book that isn't tied to the OTU? Certainly.

The MGT Black Covers are not about the OTU. This has never been a secret.

Mind you, I think MGT needs a tech document that IS about the OTU, as opposed to implying that "some of the material in this book is not associated with the OTU" but leaving it at that.

As for the five PAGES that have passed since my last post, I can only look on in saddened amazement.

 

[tbeard1999]

In a book that isn't tied to the OTU? Certainly.

The MGT Black Covers are not about the OTU. This has never been a secret.

Uh, the game is called "Traveller". The publisher makes fidelity to the original a *major* advertising point.

Therefore, it seems to me that we are entitled to assume that everything included in the product is intended to be part of Traveller canon, unless it is explicitely identified as non-canonical (such as the alternate FTL drives and power plants in the core rulebook).

Where, in Mercenary, does it say that shuriken catapults aren't canonical?

As for the five PAGES that have passed since my last post, I can only look on in saddened amazement.

Yeah me too. I, for one, am amazed at the intellectual gymnastics some folks will resort to to excuse a really mediocre product.

As an example, your "defense" of MGT's inclusion of absurdtech makes Mongoose dishonest in its advertising...

 

[aramis]

The only problem with your logic, Ty, is that the concept of canon was rejected by one of the mongoose staffers last year. There is no "canon" to MGT except what's in print is available for the GM to pick from. Think Spacemaster rather than Traveller or Space Opera: each new book was a collection of optional rules and there was no tie to the official setting, so no two GM's games felt terribly close, even when using the Official setting.

And, given that SRD versions of Merc and HG give the vast majority of the useful content at no cost... No I can't continue that thought. Hunter forbade it...