"Wilderness" UWP Gen

[robject]

In the OTU the canonical numbers for minor non-human races are about 100 inside the Imperium and about 400 known to Imperial scientists.

But this is not the total. The actual number is more like a referee's preserve. The key sentence has guided GDW's philosophy from the beginning:

The minor races, of which there are hundreds within the area of known space, will be largely left up to individual referees, although we will be detailing some of them ourselves.

So, while 100 Imperial and 400 Charted might be correct, they are not binding numbers, and were never intended to bind.


As a more concrete example, I think that this sort of license assumes that referees are encouraged to put more minor aliens in the Spinward Marches, for example, than those 8 or so already detailed within.


The context of this statement follows (my bolding):

THE TRAVELLER APPROACH

In the treatment of aliens in Traveller, several basic principles have been applied.

First, each alien race must have a developed background; this precludes the use of a random generating system (roll one die for number of legs, etc.), but ensures that an alien will be more than just a bug-eyed monster.

Second, room must be provided in the standard universe of the lmperium for referees to invent their own alien races; this is done with the concept of major and minor races. Those races which control large expanses of space and wield great power in the universe, and which are therefore likely to be widely encountered, are the major races, and will be defined and developed by GDW. The minor races, of which there are hundreds within the area of known space, will be largely left up to individual referees, although we will be detailing some of them ourselves.

Third, referees and players must be allowed to immerse themselves in the play of aliens as much or as little as they wish. This has been done by division of the major races into three groups, by degree of alien-ness, each group centered in a different area of space.

 

[Spaceresearcher]

But this is not the total. The actual number is more like a referee's preserve. The key sentence has guided GDW's philosophy from the beginning:

The minor races, of which there are hundreds within the area of known space, will be largely left up to individual referees, although we will be detailing some of them ourselves.

So, while 100 Imperial and 400 Charted might be correct, they are not binding numbers, and were never intended to bind.


As a more concrete example, I think that this sort of license assumes that referees are encouraged to put more minor aliens in the Spinward Marches, for example, than those 8 or so already detailed within.


The context of this statement follows (my bolding):

Just as the Traveller universe continues to expand, why not expand the Alien races as well? I'm baffled by some Travellers almost slavish clinging to the writings of CT(almost like CT is the bible for Traveller). Traveller expanded well beyond those writings years ago. It's also funny how most arguments dive for CT when attempting to win debatable grey areas.

 

[rancke]

But this is not the total. The actual number is more like a referee's preserve.

Only for private universes. For the universe that we refer to as the OTU and that we share with each other as a common frame of reference, the actual number is a matter of record once it has been fixed in an official publication. (I'm ignoring the fact that 100 and 400 are round numbers and that the actual numbers are probably not exactly 100 and 400). When multiple people work on one single setting, it's important to make every effort to stay on the same page. Errors and discrepancies creep in quite enough when people try their hardest to avoid them. If they just don't care there's very little point in having an official setting at all.

The key sentence has guided GDW's philosophy from the beginning:

The minor races, of which there are hundreds within the area of known space, will be largely left up to individual referees, although we will be detailing some of them ourselves.

And that's exactly what they did. They detailed, what, about 40 minor non-human races? 80? Plenty of empty slots left over. Just not in the handful of subsectors and sectors that have been covered in reasonable detail.

So, while 100 Imperial and 400 Charted might be correct, they are not binding numbers, and were never intended to bind.

They're numbers that some writers have either been unaware of or didn't give a fig for, but that's hardly the same thing, nor is it a licence for future writers who do know about them to not give a fig for them.

As a more concrete example, I think that this sort of license assumes that referees are encouraged to put more minor aliens in the Spinward Marches, for example, than those 8 or so already detailed within.

I disagree. The Spinward Marches and the Solomani Rim are the two sectors that has been covered in sufficient detail for minor race homeworlds to have been mentioned. It is, after all, a fairly important detail for any world. It wasn't always thus. The two LBBs that originally described the Marches and the Rim had word counts so low that it was entirely reasonable to suppose that a homeworld could have been left out in favor of more interesting information. Since then they've both been covered in sufficient detail to make an hitherto undisclosed homeworld highly implausible. And a nasty surprise for anyone who, for reason others may or may not consider valid, but are important to him, like to stay as close to the OTU as possible and has been writing additional material for a world for 20 years only to discover that somehow he'd been unaware of that minor race whose homeworld it is[*].

[*] Yes, I am indeed thinking of the Amindii of Regina. ​

The context of this statement follows (my bolding):

Originally Posted by Aliens for Traveller, 1981 GDW
THE TRAVELLER APPROACH

In the treatment of aliens in Traveller, several basic principles have been applied.

First, each alien race must have a developed background; this precludes the use of a random generating system (roll one die for number of legs, etc.), but ensures that an alien will be more than just a bug-eyed monster.

Second, room must be provided in the standard universe of the lmperium for referees to invent their own alien races; this is done with the concept of major and minor races. Those races which control large expanses of space and wield great power in the universe, and which are therefore likely to be widely encountered, are the major races, and will be defined and developed by GDW. The minor races, of which there are hundreds within the area of known space, will be largely left up to individual referees, although we will be detailing some of them ourselves.

Third, referees and players must be allowed to immerse themselves in the play of aliens as much or as little as they wish. This has been done by division of the major races into three groups, by degree of alien-ness, each group centered in a different area of space.

It seems to me that this is exactly what GDW did do. They detailed a few minor races, including most or all of the ones in the Spinward Marches and left the rest to individual referees. If they had detailed all 400 minor races, or even just the 100 in the Imperium, you'd have a point. But they didn't.

Just as the Traveller universe continues to expand, why not expand the Alien races as well? I'm baffled by some Travellers almost slavish clinging to the writings of CT (almost like CT is the bible for Traveller).

Well, Marc Miller does list most CT material as part of canon, so it's hardly surprising that people will consider CT material sound evidence. Why shouldn't they treat CT as the "bible" for Traveller? That's the original derivation of 'canon', after all.

(I've been meaning to ask you: Just what do you mean by the term 'canon'? I mean definition 3c in Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary: "a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works". )

Anyway, there's plenty of room to introduce new minor races without increasing the average number five-fold. Because of the nature of averages, you can even have a sector with 15 minor races if you want one; you just have to consider that this implies 12 other sectors with an average of one race each, and decide if your concept is cool enough to warrant hogging 15 slots for it. (If you're writing for official publication, that is; if you're just messing with your own TU you can have a sector with every system having a minor race homeworld if you like).


Hans

 

[HG_B]

Only for private universes. For the universe that we refer to as the OTU and that we share with each other as a common frame of reference, the actual number is a matter of record once it has been fixed in an official publication.

What's the exact number that has been fixed?

 

[rancke]

What's the exact number that has been fixed?

As mentioned in post #19 in this thread, in round numbers it's about 100 inside the Imperium and 400 in Charted Space. With the caveat that this is viewpoint writing; it's what Imperial Science has heard about. The Shriekers, for example, would not be included in the count. This works out as roughly one per three subsectors if we assume that information about minor races inside the Imperium is more complete and accurate than information about minor races far away.

That's an average, remember. There's nothing odd about the Spinward Marches having 8 (?) minor races and the Solomani Rim only having two (?).


Hans

 

[HG_B]

As mentioned in post #19 in this thread, in round numbers it's about 100 inside the Imperium and 400 in Charted Space. With the caveat that this is viewpoint writing; it's what Imperial Science has heard about. The Shriekers, for example, would not be included in the count. This works out as roughly one per three subsectors if we assume that information about minor races inside the Imperium is more accurate than information about minor races far away.


Hans

1 per 3 subsectors gives some useful data for designing unexplored region, world gen systems.

Thanks

 

[robject]

Just as the Traveller universe continues to expand, why not expand the Alien races as well? I'm baffled by some Travellers almost slavish clinging to the writings of CT(almost like CT is the bible for Traveller). Traveller expanded well beyond those writings years ago. It's also funny how most arguments dive for CT when attempting to win debatable grey areas.

Well, in many ways I also "slavishly cling" to CT, and there are many reasons why people would want to do so. But, you're right, Traveller expanded beyond its borders, and in fact even within CT there is a vast expansion, resulting in all sorts of variations to Traveller.

I think, however, that most Traveller fans implicitly understood that the Spinward Marches was defined and internally consistent, and therefore could never have official new aliens. This tended to make us work on a minimum common denominator, so to speak, and so we can't just go about inventing new aliens and trying to fit them in without changing canon. And finally, aliens were not really given a level of prominence: the major races were out there, but most player characters are humans and interact in a human universe (it was easier to use humans than to try to invent new aliens anyway).

All of this, you might call tradition (think Tevye in Fiddler on the Roof), or maybe just momentum, or even laziness on the part of GDW (most of 'em apparently didn't know the OTU very well -- they produced a LOT of other games) but there it is.

 

[robject]

Spinward Marches and new NIL

Traveller5 predicts more Native Intelligent Life than the "Charted Space" average. It looks good with Wildernesses. This can be reconciled with Charted Space too.

For the sake of sanity, the important sophonts for the Spinward Marches are already known.

So about "more" NIL.

There are probably several NIL worlds that have proto-sophonts, and several which have the ruins of extinct NIL. That can take care of many or most.

There *could* be a few others lurking somewhere, but if they're out there, they're not consequential. There might be some living on their homeworld, but they're not Travellers who everybody should have already known about. There are no Klingons in the Spinward Marches, cruising around in D-7 battleships. They aren't the master merchants of the sector, they're not superstrong and superfast and superpsionic. They're not better than Imperial Marines. They're not smarter than the Imperial Navy. They're not more inquisitive or stubborn than the IISS. They don't have superior technology, or even matching technology. Their hand-built jump drives are not superior to any other jump drives.

In short, interest in them is purely constrained to their home system, and little else, and they might be largely or completely unknown.

If they're there, they are easily overlooked.

 

[simonh]

I disagree. The Spinward Marches and the Solomani Rim are the two sectors that has been covered in sufficient detail for minor race homeworlds to have been mentioned. It is, after all, a fairly important detail for any world. It wasn't always thus. The two LBBs that originally described the Marches and the Rim had word counts so low that it was entirely reasonable to suppose that a homeworld could have been left out in favor of more interesting information. Since then they've both been covered in sufficient detail to make an hitherto undisclosed homeworld highly implausible. And a nasty surprise for anyone who, for reason others may or may not consider valid, but are important to him, like to stay as close to the OTU as possible and has been writing additional material for a world for 20 years only to discover that somehow he'd been unaware of that minor race whose homeworld it is[*].

[*] Yes, I am indeed thinking of the Amindii of Regina. ​

If you spend any time writing up extra details for the spinward marches you're taking the same risk. There's nothing to stop FFE or Mongoose publishing a sourcebook for a world or even just an adventure with some extra details on a planet and contradicting details vital to someone's game.

I don't even consider that being a risk, it's just a fact if life when it come to RPG settings. Once you start running a game in a published setting you are forking your own version.

Simon Hibbs

 

[rancke]

If you spend any time writing up extra details for the spinward marches you're taking the same risk. There's nothing to stop FFE or Mongoose publishing a sourcebook for a world or even just an adventure with some extra details on a planet and contradicting details vital to someone's game.

Too true, and don't think I haven't been hit by just that at times. But it's not quite the same risk, since I believe that at least I should be able to trust that they will not deliberately contradict any information they've previously provided.


Hans

 

[robject]

Too true, and don't think I haven't been hit by just that at times. But it's not quite the same risk, since I believe that at least I should be able to trust that they will not deliberately contradict any information they've previously provided.


Hans

Leads us nicely back to the 'canon' issue. Do we have a 'canon materials' thread on COTI somewhere?

 

[simonh]

Too true, and don't think I haven't been hit by just that at times. But it's not quite the same risk, since I believe that at least I should be able to trust that they will not deliberately contradict any information they've previously provided.


Hans

That's absolutely fair enough. If they say that officially there are 8 minor races in the Spinward Marches and here are the details, then it would be bad form to add in an official ninth.

For my own campaign though I'd quite happily add in a ninth and just say that in my campaign there are nine. Heck, even my own campaigns aren't consistent with each other, often quite deliberately and up front. Keeping them consistent within themselves is sometimes enough of a struggle to have to deal with.

Simon Hibbs

 

[rancke]

For my own campaign though I'd quite happily add in a ninth and just say that in my campaign there are nine.

Yes, of course. Your campaign is set in your Traveller Universe. I'm talking about the game universe that is our common frame of reference.

Heck, even my own campaigns aren't consistent with each other, often quite deliberately and up front.

I try not to do that sort of thing. Quite apart from what I feel I owe my players in the way of self-consistency, I like being able to reuse old material. My campaigns usually run in the same universe, either someplace else on the same date as another campaign or in the same place on a later date.


Hans

 

[robject]

For the universe that we refer to as the OTU and that we share with each other as a common frame of reference, the actual number [of NIL] is a matter of record once it has been fixed in an official publication.

[...]

They detailed, what, about 40 minor non-human races? 80? Plenty of empty slots left over. Just not in the handful of subsectors and sectors that have been covered in reasonable detail.

[...]

The Spinward Marches and the Solomani Rim are the two sectors that has been covered in sufficient detail for minor race homeworlds to have been mentioned.

Pardon me bringing this back up, but I think none of these points are really as set in stone as that. It's not that GDW may or may not have wanted to fix the number -- they don't seem to have wanted to -- but rather that they didn't have the time or resources to detail the universe.

I mean, their publication was JTAS, which came out, what, quarterly? And they didn't do more than one alien per issue, did they? And the focus of their magazine shifted, from the Marches to the Rim. It's not like they had an internet. Nor a hard-and-fast roadmap.

I'm saying this because of an article in the Best of JTAS #3, as I was browsing.

The article is Soft Bunk: Or What to do When the Zhodani Attack, page 44 of Best of JTAS #3. In it, Loren Wiseman so casually mentions aliens that I was mildly surprised. I had completely forgotten about unknown-but-present NIL on Tionale -- so unknown that their population numbers are not included in the UWP's population digit. The article is SO casual about it that it doesn't say anything about the NIL at all.

Doesn't sound like a desire to nail things down. Just sounds like they did what they wanted -- within reason -- with the space they had available in JTAS and their LBBs. And as Loren's article shows, a primitive, uncontacted NIL is well within reason.

What's more, it looks like a casual mention was sufficient for GDW to add a NIL to the Spinward Marches. Put another way, there are over 500 worlds in that sector, and we don't really know much about them at all. GDW didn't seem interested in locking it down any more than they had to -- and that is restricted to system names and UWPs, the worlds they detailed, and the borders they drew.

That's me playing Devil's Advocate.

So the issue today is the same as yesterday -- has everything there is to say about the Marches been said? No. We are still fixing -- changing -- 'canonical' stellar data, broken since before MegaTraveller came out.

Having said that, GDW bound itself to its background. In that JTAS article, Loren didn't invent a new Major Race and plunk them on Tionale. He made them hidden, probably because he knew that the Imperium and the Marches had a framework already.

But I can't see why many heretofore unknown NIL in the Marches couldn't eventually be contacted. And I think it's presumptuous and ridiculous to say it can't and shouldn't happen.

 

[rancke]

But I can't see why many heretofore unknown NIL in the Marches couldn't eventually be contacted.

Because they would have been contacted long ago. Even the specific example to the contrary, the Shriekers, required some very low-probablility conditions. Even then it's a bit of a mystery that they weren't spotted during the First and Second Surveys. I don't think using that excuse in the Marches would work too many times more.

You're on firmer, or at least slightly less shaky, ground with claims that a "new" race has been known all along but just not mentioned before. But I still think that if you (generic you) want to introduce another minor non-human race to the Marches, you should go with a non-native population. (That, incidentally, is what I've done with the 'natives' of Tionale).

And I think it's presumptuous and ridiculous to say it can't and shouldn't happen.

What about claiming that it shouldn't happend in Sword Worlds and Aramis subsectors? Would that still be presumptuous and ridiculous?


Hans

 

[GypsyComet]

What about claiming that it shouldn't happen in Sword Worlds and Aramis subsectors? Would that still be presumptuous and ridiculous?

"Those? Those're just Drynwyn Trolls. They aren't senti..."

Everyone watches the NAS sensor rise to the top.

"Well, uh. Hmm."

The Sword Worlds are an unusually large cluster of easily habitable worlds. It would be surprising if there wasn't a NIL or two in the area. Yet even BtC doesn't place any there.

You might say the subsector is too well developed for hidden populations of native aliens. I might retort that the Sworld Worlders are probably hiding something, and possibly multiple somethings.

 

[Timerover51]

Thinking on that line, Robject, you have the nameless intelligent aliens of the planet Craw, in the Glisten subsector, mentioned in the JTAS Number 10 article, "Planet-building. a Referee's Guide, by J. Andrew and William H. Keith". An alien and his/her/its riding beast are pictured on page 37 of JTAS Number 11.

Based on those examples, there is still a lot that can be done with the planets in the Spinward Marches without violating canon, as there is no canon to violate. You have bits and pieces mentioned in the JTAS, and some of the adventures, but there is a massive amount that is not said.

By the way, Robject, could you list the 8 established minor alien races in the Spinward Marches and their planetary locations?

 

[rancke]

The Sword Worlds are an unusually large cluster of easily habitable worlds. It would be surprising if there wasn't a NIL or two in the area. Yet even BtC doesn't place any there.

Random chance is random. It would be even stranger if there were no large clusters of habitable worlds in Charted Space without indigenous sapient life.

You might say the subsector is too well developed for hidden populations of native aliens.

That's just what I might say.

I might retort that the Sworld Worlders are probably hiding something, and possibly multiple somethings.

And I might reply that people suck at keeping that sort of secrets for any appreciable length of time. If Dyrnwyn Trolls really were sapient and the fact was still a secret, the writeup ought to have mentioned Persistent Rumors about them being sapient and Stout Denial by the Dyrnies.


Hans

 

[aramis]

if the NIL is in places humans generally don't look (like moons of gas giants, or in the GG themselves), it's quite plausible that they're there... but they're probably low tech (TL≤3), and physically incompatible with human environments barring technological support.

 

[Timerover51]

Still looking for what the 8 minor alien races in the Spinward Marches are. Are those on Craw amoung them or not?