"Wilderness" UWP Gen

[aramis]

I am sure it has been detailed and/or discussed elsewhere, but what are the particular canonical-issues that are problematic in BtC (other than pre-5FW Fleet Deployments and post-1116 Alt-timeline chronology)?

many of the world UWP values are wrong.
it contradicts lots of other books in many details....
... and it adds 8 minor races. And not the right 8...

 

[rancke]

many of the world UWP values are wrong.
it contradicts lots of other books in many details....
... and it adds 8 minor races. And not the right 8...

Plus two (or was it three?) more minor human races (out of a limited number) in casual one-line throwaway references. This in a sector that canonically only has the Darrians.

Plus several 2nd Imperium colonies in a sector that canonically doesn't have any (unknown, that is -- Vanejen and Algine have the only ones).


Hans

 

[aramis]

Plus two (or was it three?) more minor human races (out of a limited number) in casual one-line throwaway references. This in a sector that canonically only has the Darrians.

Plus several 2nd Imperium colonies in a sector that canonically doesn't have any (unknown, that is -- Vanejen and Algine have the only ones).


Hans

Actually, CT canon has two (non-playable) paragraph+ species: Ebokin and Llewellolly.
The Chirpers and the Shriekers are in CT adventures. Both are presented primarily as NPC's, but Shriekers can be PC's. (Chirpers are never presented as PC's, even tho' they're a variant of Droyne)
The Darrians are added as a minor race in JTAS 14, before AM 8 and a deeper treatment.

The Sword Worlders have minor race treatment as well, In JTAS 18... Not quite really a minor race, but clearly a culture and ethnicity within the Marches. Especially since they are immigrant terrans within historic memory.

 

[rancke]

Actually, CT canon has two (non-playable) paragraph+ species: Ebokin and Llewellolly.
The Chirpers and the Shriekers are in CT adventures. Both are presented primarily as NPC's, but Shriekers can be PC's. (Chirpers are never presented as PC's, even tho' they're a variant of Droyne)
The Darrians are added as a minor race in JTAS 14, before AM 8 and a deeper treatment.

Everything you say here seems correct, but I'm not sure what the 'actually' refers to.

The Sword Worlders have minor race treatment as well, In JTAS 18... Not quite really a minor race, but clearly a culture and ethnicity within the Marches. Especially since they are immigrant Terrans within historic memory.

'Minor human race' is a term that refers to populations that were placed on a world of their own by the Ancients [Regency Sourcebook, library data]. They're the ones whose numbers are limited to around 45. That's 45 known to Imperial Science in the Classic Era; hitherto unknown populations doesn't count, but the ones mentioned in BtC wouldn't be unknown, so they would count, if they were accepted. The Sword Worlders are an ethnic group.


Hans

 

[GypsyComet]

"Minor Race" = A native or Ancients transplanted population that didn't develop Jump Drive independently.

"Minor Race Treatment" = A Contact! article after all of the Major Races were covered.

While they would later get more significant treatment as a social and political entity of the Marches (like the Darrians, though much later), the Sword Worlders definitely started off with a Minor Race Treatment.

 

[rancke]

"Minor Race Treatment" = A Contact! article after all of the Major Races were covered.

Yes, I did guess that Wil was using the term 'minor race treatment' to indicate a JTAS writeup of any distinct population group whether minor, variant, or ethnic. I just don't want any hypothetical newcomers to interpret it to mean that the Sword Worlders were a minor race, so I added a comment to make it clear that they are not.


Hans

 

[Timerover51]

"Minor Race" = A native or Ancients transplanted population that didn't develop Jump Drive independently.

"Minor Race Treatment" = A Contact! article after all of the Major Races were covered.

While they would later get more significant treatment as a social and political entity of the Marches (like the Darrians, though much later), the Sword Worlders definitely started off with a Minor Race Treatment.

Why does a Contact article mean that they are a Minor Race. The article in the JTAS clearly states that they are an offshoot of the Solomani, which are a Major Race. How do you get a Minor Race from that?

Side note, reading the article again indicates that they use a variant of Icelandic. I came across and downloaded an Icelandic phrase book issued by the US Army for the troops in Iceland in 1943. I will see if I can remember where I found it. Would there be any interest in my posting the link?

Edit Note: I found the link faster than I expected so here it is. It does have a searchable text by Google.

https://archive.org/details/TM30-313Icelandic

 

[whulorigan]

Would there be any interest in my posting the link?

Edit Note: I found the link faster than I expected so here it is. It does have a searchable text by Google.

https://archive.org/details/TM30-313Icelandic

Yes. Thank you.

 

[creativehum]

Why does a Contact article mean that they are a Minor Race. The article in the JTAS clearly states that they are an offshoot of the Solomani, which are a Major Race. How do you get a Minor Race from that?

I can't pretend to be as deep-in-the-weeds on many of these issues as some are, but...

Last night I was reading Joe Fugate's answers to a bunch of questions. This one question and answer seems pertinent:

What was the reasoning behind the whole 'Aslan are not _really_ a major race' thing?

I see this as a fun bit of back history mostly. It's something Marc had cooked up as a bit of irony.

I've always seen this as a lesson to us in how trying to come up with labels for the "haves" and the "have nots" needs to be tempered with fairness and good sense. And sometimes those labels are just plain wrong.

In fact, the Aslan are a major race. Period. The definition is a poor one. A major race is a race who has the moxy to parley the use of jump technology into a star-spanning empire. Who cares where they got the jump technology?

Do you see? The have/have not labeling is most often devised by the haves to further their agenda. And to be used to look down their noses at the have nots.

So here we are, the Solomani with a star spanning empire, and the Aslan with a star spanning empire. A Solomani and and Aslan meet in a bar. The Solomani brags that *his* ancestors painstakingly, with much sweat and tears, finally devised the first jump drive.

Then the Solomani looks at the Aslan with a sneer. He points at the Aslan and proclaims, "While this Aslan here, lying through his teeth, didn't shed one tear or one drop of sweat, stole jump drive technology from the Solomani -- and has the *gall* to claim his ancestors invented it on their own. The Aslan are nothing but a bunch of dirty lying thieves, with no honor."

Blah, blah, blah. Does all this talk and minor/major race definition maneuvering change the fact that both races have this massive star spanning empire? Nope.

But then Grandfather engineered humans into their various sub-races. Maybe that ought to make humans some sort of second-rate aliens?

The point is, it's always something. Somebody wants to define themselves into prominence and there's always a way to define another group into being second-rate.

I consider the sheer drive of the race is the kind of *drive* that makes a major or minor race. Not whether or not you invented jump drive on your own.

The prominence of the Aslan in known space speaks for itself. The definition be hanged. The Aslan are a major race, and nothing is going to change that, no matter what happened thousands of years ago in their distant past.

It's important to remember that the source material for the OTU is -- well, kind of weird. It is a mix of objective information along with utterly subjective information as broadcast by the Third Imperium or groups within the Third Imperium.

Fugate is very clear about the notion of "races" in the answer above. According to Fugate, Marc is poking a stick in the eye of those who need to tracks such things -- who is important, who is above who. "Major" and "Minor" is a purely subjective concoction, designed to let those who created it feel better than others.

Because, the objective fact is whether or not a group developed starship technology on its own. Or which world a group of people grew up on. That's objective.

But the words "Major Race" or "Minor Race"? Those words are meant to put people down. That's it. They are a concoction to build dominance.

I assume that notion will rub some the wrong way.

***

I think the tension between the objective source material and subjective source material is a really important one, with lots of implications about, well, everything when dealing with the OTU. I don't see it discussed much, though. It provides lots of color, makes things muddy, and leads to a lot of slipper gaps. (Even the shift of using a subsector in the LBBs as an arbitrary unit of space to future books using a subsector as a codified unit of political geography as defined by the Third Imperium has lots of implications about what and how people see the possibilities of the game.)

 

[GypsyComet]

Why does a Contact article mean that they are a Minor Race. The article in the JTAS clearly states that they are an offshoot of the Solomani, which are a Major Race. How do you get a Minor Race from that?

Because most Minor Races never get more than this. That's the "treatment" part: 2,000-5,000 words and done. It doesn't make the Sword Worlders a Minor Race, just like sleeping in a hotel's "Executive Suite" doesn't make you an executive.

 

[rancke]

Fugate is very clear about the notion of "races" in the answer above. According to Fugate, Marc is poking a stick in the eye of those who need to tracks such things -- who is important, who is above who.

Touché!

"Major" and "Minor" is a purely subjective concoction, designed to let those who created it feel better than others.

Except that the criterion I quoted is 100% objective and doesn't distinguish between major and minor human races but between populations established by the Ancients and populations established in other ways.

I suppose that strictly speaking I ought to have made it clear that the three major human races share the same distinction -- well, two of the three. Mea culpa.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Why does a Contact article mean that they are a Minor Race. The article in the JTAS clearly states that they are an offshoot of the Solomani, which are a Major Race. How do you get a Minor Race from that?

They don't actually use Solomani Character Gen, but the standard Character Gen with Solomani Aging... so, in practical terms, they're written up in the same way as most minor races in JTAS - mods to imperial services.

They are functionally a discrete population in the context of the marches. They aren't allied with the Solomani, they aren't in practical contact with the Solomani. They have modifications to Character Gen. For all intents except nomenclature, they are a minor race.

 

[rancke]

They are functionally a discrete population in the context of the marches.

So are the Irklan, the Nexxies, and the Jonkereen... none of which are minor human races either.

They aren't allied with the Solomani, they aren't in practical contact with the Solomani.

They are Solomani (with a leavening of Vilani). They aren't the Solomani Confederation, but then, hundreds of billions of Solomani are not part of the Solomani Confederation.

They have modifications to Character Gen.

So do shoe salemen.

For all intents except nomenclature, they are a minor race.

For all intents except the definition, they are a minor race. Which is to say, not at all.

Just because you treat beef steaks and salmon steaks the same (you fry them both) doesn't make salmon steaks the same as beef steaks.


Hans

 

[Frankymole]

if the NIL is in places humans generally don't look (like moons of gas giants, or in the GG themselves), it's quite plausible that they're there... but they're probably low tech (TL≤3), and physically incompatible with human environments barring technological support.

If we're still debating cryptozoological hominids on potentially 2 or more continents of a mere size 8 world...