Worlds without Roads

[tjoneslo]

Just a couple of comments on your ground vehicle. Just about all of my data is in English units, so I will do some conversion.

First, the engine is listed at a 4,000 Kilowatt Diesel, which equates to 5360 horsepower. <snip> Assuming you are running at about 80% load, or say 4000 horsepower, with a fuel burn of 0.4 pounds per horsepower-hour for 1600 pounds per hour, you use up all of your fuel in 8.4 hours.

GURPS Vehicles components are optimistic to the point of being unrealistic in terms of power output for size and fuel consumption. The "HP" means high performance, a highly tuned engine making it much smaller than a normal engine. Vehicles claims this engine consumes 160 gallons per hour of fuel at cruising speed, and the fuel tank is supposed to last 12 hours.

Next, there is the ground pressure of the vehicle, which is given as 9,611 lbs./sf, and I assume that the "sf" means "square foot". That would equal a ground pressure of 66.7 pounds per square inch. That ground pressure will restrict the vehicle to heavy-duty roads only, and you can expect to bog down as soon as you go off-road.

That was sort of the point. This is the vehicle you will need the MCr1.5/km road network for. Once the network exists, this is a cheap and easy way to haul cargo around. Plus the road network gives the ability to haul other things (buses, cars, lighter trunks, etc).

 

[Timerover51]

GURPS Vehicles components are optimistic to the point of being unrealistic in terms of power output for size and fuel consumption. The "HP" means high performance, a highly tuned engine making it much smaller than a normal engine. Vehicles claims this engine consumes 160 gallons per hour of fuel at cruising speed, and the fuel tank is supposed to last 12 hours.

Hmmm, I assume that GURPS is using the US Gallon and not the Imperial Gallon, so Diesel at 7 pounds per gallon, with 160 gallons weighing in at 1120 pounds. That is roughly 0.2 pounds fuel per horsepower-hour, which is just about twice as good of what can realistically be expected. I can deal with "handwavium" when it comes to some things, but if a game is attempting to design Real World-type vehicles, I would like the game to get is sort of right.

That was sort of the point. This is the vehicle you will need the MCr1.5/km road network for. Once the network exists, this is a cheap and easy way to haul cargo around. Plus the road network gives the ability to haul other things (buses, cars, lighter trunks, etc).

Depending on the distance to be covered, the WW2 US Army 7.5 ton cargo truck would make a viable option. It could move 7.5 tons of cargo off-road, and 10 tons of cargo on the highway. Diesel mileage was 2.5 miles per gallon, so not that bad.

 

[kilemall]

Question for you. Would you pay 4 Credits for one kilogram of flour, or to put it in other terms, would you pay $18 for 2.2 pounds of flour, or just under $9 per pound. If so, when is the last time you went grocery shopping?

Edit Note: Wheat is presently being sold at a price of 37.6 Credits per metric ton, in the Real World. Allowing for Biter's thin atmosphere, the production costs might be a bit higher, and the yield per acre a bit lower, I have not seen yield figures for Wheat grown at high altitudes on Earth. Unless you hit a planet where there is essentially a famine going on, I very much doubt that any speculator is going to buy wheat for 1000 Credits per ton mass.

COMPLETELY ignored my point re: FutureCorn I see.

I postulated several different variations of grain value that could explain desirability at the consumer kg level, and also foor/liquor/industrial uses as well.

AND, I'm not TALKING ton mass, I am talking dton, like we always do in Traveller tramp freighter economics, which was the postulated question set I was proposing for.

14m3 for the density of wheat (since you seem fixated on that) works out to 11 metric tons, plugging in 14 cubic meters for grain wheat into this calculator.

http://www.aqua-calc.com/calculate/volume-to-weight

By your example, the economics do not work out, 11 x 37.6 credits.

What I find is that a metric ton of wheat is going for $155 at the Gulf of Mexico (which equates to starport rates).

http://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/?commodity=wheat

Depends on how you translate it, if a credit is equivalent to 1977 dollars your figure would be 'about right'.

However, that doesn't mean it is right for how credits translate, period, or presumably the desirability to ship grain out of Biter, with a backstory that says it happens.

Using your methodology, a metric ton of wheat would have to go for $90 in 1977, or approximately $360 now.

Well we go back in time with the above commodity pricer, and find that it was about in that ballpark a few times this decade.

http://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/?commodity=wheat&months=360

Canadian wheat has too.

http://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/?commodity=canadian-wheat&months=360

But you know what? Doesn't have to be wheat.

A popular production item for US Western states is sugar beets.

Index Mundi is calling the price of sugar 19 cents per pound.

http://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/?commodity=sugar&months=360

It's 2204 pounds per metric ton, and a similar density of 11 metric tons per dton. So 2204 * 11 * .19 = $4606.

Using the raw divisor of 4 for current costs vs. 1977 dollars, that's easily more then 1000Cr per dton.

So perhaps Biter produces sugar instead. Or maybe they have hyperbeets or superwheat by now, 3-4x the production because of GM alterations, or again have nutritional/industrial values that are multipliers of our current crops.

If I were running a subsector campaign and decided so and so planet is a grain exporter as part of the story, then I would MAKE it happen.

And the money would be there, because there are prices on Earth, and then there are prices of the FAR FUTURE, and I can darn well ignore $4=1Cr.

 

[epicenter00]

COMPLETELY ignored my point re: FutureCorn I see.

If we really want to send everyone for a loop and even get back to the original post re: roads...

What if Biter is still a poor world, but Biter has since slowly refocused on having a massive ranching industry and their primary export is meat?

IIRC, Bison (and probably some other meat animals) are much more efficient and less care-intensive than cattle. I could imagine some sort of meat animal that is less finicky about its feed and tougher than modern cattle (older breeds of cattle would probably qualify for this) being herded in great numbers on Biter.

What would they eat? There's a mention in a TNE sourcebook of a crop known as "Ander's Red Corn" (eg; a 'futurecorn') which supposedly grows in poor, arid soils though its yield is low. I could imagine Biter perhaps seeded with some sort of variety of perennial wheat or something similar, with deep root systems to allow for relatively constant yields even in arid years, nitrogen-fixing roots, and so on. It'd basically live wild. They had planted this stuff decades ago over huge swaths of the planet. It'd be the grazing fodder for these herd animals. The low yield would be compensated by simply driving the herd animals over larger areas of the world.

Immense "cattle" drives would push the herd animals towards small starports / stockyards or perhaps there might even be a few grav slaughterhouses that'd just land in a certain town or another to process the animals. Regardless, as Aramis pointed out elsewhere, such herders might use off-road vehicles and riding animals. Traders would come to trade for the meat, which is live when taken to the stockyard and once slaughtered, it is the responsibility of the merchant to preserve it for transport.

This sort of system might not require much in the way of roads. Though obviously, such operations would only be going on in a relatively small percentage of the world, but its economic contribution might be outsized in comparison to percentage of land being used for it since Biter might not have much less in the way of off-world exports due to its low population and lack of capital infrastructure (including a road/rail network).

 

[kilemall]

If we really want to send everyone for a loop and even get back to the original post re: roads...

What if Biter is still a poor world, but Biter has since slowly refocused on having a massive ranching industry and their primary export is meat?

IIRC, Bison (and probably some other meat animals) are much more efficient and less care-intensive than cattle. I could imagine some sort of meat animal that is less finicky about its feed and tougher than modern cattle (older breeds of cattle would probably qualify for this) being herded in great numbers on Biter.

What would they eat? There's a mention in a TNE sourcebook of a crop known as "Ander's Red Corn" (eg; a 'futurecorn') which supposedly grows in poor, arid soils though its yield is low. I could imagine Biter perhaps seeded with some sort of variety of perennial wheat or something similar, with deep root systems to allow for relatively constant yields even in arid years, nitrogen-fixing roots, and so on. It'd basically live wild. They had planted this stuff decades ago over huge swaths of the planet. It'd be the grazing fodder for these herd animals. The low yield would be compensated by simply driving the herd animals over larger areas of the world.

Immense "cattle" drives would push the herd animals towards small starports / stockyards or perhaps there might even be a few grav slaughterhouses that'd just land in a certain town or another to process the animals. Regardless, as Aramis pointed out elsewhere, such herders might use off-road vehicles and riding animals. Traders would come to trade for the meat, which is live when taken to the stockyard and once slaughtered, it is the responsibility of the merchant to preserve it for transport.

This sort of system might not require much in the way of roads. Though obviously, such operations would only be going on in a relatively small percentage of the world, but its economic contribution might be outsized in comparison to percentage of land being used for it since Biter might not have much less in the way of off-world exports due to its low population and lack of capital infrastructure (including a road/rail network).

One big super cattle drive!

Planet cowboy. Could work.

 

[Whipsnade]

What if Biter is still a poor world, but Biter has since slowly refocused on having a massive ranching industry and their primary export is meat?

In other words, Tarsus.

 

[Enoki]

If you want something for a range feed, I'd think they'd choose something like Congograss, Buffelgrass, or the like. These are fast growing species that will grow in most environments from hot to cold, dry to moist. They spread by wind blown seed and will take over edging out many native species.

They are also almost bush-like in size, grow in clumps, and make good soil stabilizers where you have windblown dry conditions like a desert.

 

[Whipsnade]

COMPLETELY ignored my point re: FutureCorn I see.

Get used to it.

If I were running a subsector campaign and decided so and so planet is a grain exporter as part of the story, then I would MAKE it happen.

Exactly and you'd be able to so with historical examples in hand.

Returning to road/rail-free Biter(*), rivers, lakes, and seas will meet that world's export transportation needs as the colonial-era US easily shows.

In 1763 with animal-drawn wagons using dirt roads, the inhabitants of Virginia and Maryland raised, harvested, aged, and exported 96 thousand hogsheads(A) of tobacco. They accomplished this thanks to the river, coastal, and oceanic shipping.

The same colonies in the same year exported 40 thousand quarters(B) of wheat.

New York, in the same year, exported 250 thousand barrels of flour and 70 thousand quarters of unprocessed wheat thanks to the Hudson River.

Biter will able to grow, transport on world, and export agricultural products thanks to it's 40% hydrographic rating and that rating alone. There's no need to design cheap grav lorries when simple barges, tugs, and bulk carriers can already do the job. There's no need to design cheap, long distance, all-terrain cargo trucks for the same reason. And there's no need to presume far future super crops to inflate demand/prices when everyday crops were able get to job done economically over two centuries ago.

While adding grav lorries, long distance ATV trucks, and super crops would create nice We're Not In Kansas feeling for Biter, if their presence means the numbers won't work then you need to ditch them.

A farming co-op hiring ATV trucking service to move their crop to a grain elevator at a river landing? Certainly.

Far Future cowboys flying ultralights and riding dirt bikes to herd and defend "cattle" along a drive to the rail head while Stumpy follows in the bio-diesel chuck wagon? Sure.

A bio-diesel tug maneuvering a dozen barges downstream to the port where their contents will be "pumped" aboard a bulk carrier driven by Flettner rotors and shipped across a land-locked sea to the world's starport? Of course.

Deciding Biter can't be an ag exporting world because it can't afford to build the Trans-Siberian railroad and Eisenhower Interstate system? Sorry, you just failed as a Traveller referee.

Think, imagine, and play. The rules and the examples of history are there to help you and not handicap you.


* - Actually long distance or continent-spanning road/rail free and not entirely local road/rail free.

A - Seeing as the thread has devolved into a genitalia sizing contest featuring units of measurement, I'll forestall any bloviating by the Usual Suspects and explain that a hogshead varied anywhere between 60 and 140 gallons.

B - A quarter is a unit of dry volume equivalent to eight bushels.

 

[Enoki]

They might also buy / build a non-jump ship of hundreds? thousands? of tons that is specifically designed to move between key locations to move cargo. With the advent of grav technology and the clearly possible movement of a large ship within the planet's atmosphere, it might be cheaper and faster to just use a large ship of this sort.

Take a free or far trader design, remove the jump and maneuver drives, add sufficient grav plates to move it and a power plant. Get rid of staterooms and such too. Basically its a bridge, a cargo bay, and an engine room. If the trip between A and B is under say 16 hours that would be more than sufficient to move cargo.

That would take a crew of what? Three or four at most if the loading and unloading were automated and done by ground personnel at each end of the run. One ship does the work necessary. A few handle the planet's bulk transport needs.

Look at say an Empress Marava class far trader. You get rid of the jump and maneuver drives. Move the power plant out board. Ditch the fuel purification system, low berths, crew quarters, turrets, and side cargo loading doors. Now the cargo bay is the width of the ship and extends its full length. There could be front and rear loading doors. You get rid of the air raft bay and add two more staterooms for passengers. That way you double as a passenger ship, if the business is available. Fuel is reduced to a week or two's at most. Now you have (without calculating this) around 100 to 120 tons of cargo space and can carry as many as 16 passengers. The crew is a pilot / captain, a steward or two, and an engineer.
You rely on ground services to load and unload the ship.

That's a small ship. Enlarge that as necessary to handle cargo between two points. No roads needed.

 

[Whipsnade]

They might also buy / build a non-jump ship of hundreds? thousands? of tons that is specifically designed to move between key locations to move cargo.

Yes, they could.

I purposely used the historical example of US colonial exports in 1763 because of a near match in population between the colonies and Biter. The Colonies had a population of roughly 2.2 million in 1765, something which is within ~25% of Biter's population and something which I felt was "good enough".

I figured if a TL3 "world" with a smaller population using indigenous transportation assets could be an ag exporter, then a TL A world with a slightly larger population using indigenous transportation assets could also be an ag exporter.

There could very well be a group of jump de-rated Beowulfs linking farm silos and ranch paddocks with the starport. There could very well a group of purposely built grav "scows" doing the same. Those two ships, however, do not need to be present in order for Biter to be an ag exporter, just as continent and region spanning rails and roads do not need to be present.

Having those Beowulfs or grav scows present is a nice touch and not a necessity.

 

[Enoki]

Yes, they could.

I purposely used the historical example of US colonial exports in 1763 because of a near match in population between the colonies and Biter. The Colonies had a population of roughly 2.2 million in 1765, something which is within ~25% of Biter's population and something which I felt was "good enough".

I figured if a TL3 "world" with a smaller population using indigenous transportation assets could be an ag exporter, then a TL A world with a slightly larger population using indigenous transportation assets could also be an ag exporter.

There could very well be a group of jump de-rated Beowulfs linking farm silos and ranch paddocks with the starport. There could very well a group of purposely built grav "scows" doing the same. Those two ships, however, do not need to be present in order for Biter to be an ag exporter, just as continent and region spanning rails and roads do not need to be present.

Having those Beowulfs or grav scows present is a nice touch and not a necessity.

Agreed. A jump capable ship that can land is a perfectly viable alternative. Say, any system within J2 is almost as viable an export location as the far side of the planet or another world in the same system.
Anything within J2 is at most 2 or 3 weeks away. If it takes 2 weeks to move stuff by road or boat to a distant city on the planet then there really isn't much cost difference in having a ship land, load, and jump your goods to another system.
The idea you have to go to the or a starport flies in the face of something like this. I'd think only a really controlling central government could successfully enforce something like that. The government could easily have a customs guy or three where the ship lands, even if they're there once a month when it shows up.

If say, your particular operation needed 50 tons of shipping space a month, then having a deal with a free or far trader for export is the same as sending it somewhere else on the planet. This becomes even more attractive if at the other end the ship is loading stuff you need to stay or become more productive.
The ship jumps back and forth on a regular schedule, and you make money, the ship makes money, the people at the other end make money, boring as that is...

 

[Timerover51]

If you want something for a range feed, I'd think they'd choose something like Congograss, Buffelgrass, or the like. These are fast growing species that will grow in most environments from hot to cold, dry to moist. They spread by wind blown seed and will take over edging out many native species.

They are also almost bush-like in size, grow in clumps, and make good soil stabilizers where you have windblown dry conditions like a desert.

How about Blue Grama? A favorite food of cattle and buffalo, along with prairie dogs.

http://www.blueplanetbiomes.org/blue_grama-grass.htm

If you want tough cattle, try the Texas Longhorn, tough in more ways than one.

However, if you are going to ship either fresh or frozen meat, you need either a ship designed as a refrigerator ship, or load the meat into refrigerated cargo pods.

Also, for the ideas of pulling the jump and maneuver drive out of a ship and using it for planetary hauling, how are you moving it without the maneuver drive? If you are using it within the atmosphere, then extremely high speeds are not needed, so a minimal engineering plant of Power Plant A and Maneuver Drive A may be all that you need.

With respect to the wheat issue, first, I am using a value of 13.5 cubic meters for Traveller dTon volume, second I am using the bulk cargo loading value for wheat from TM 55-15, Transportation Reference Data, U.S. Army, December 1963, based on what a ship can carry per cubic foot based on long experience with grain loading. Third, wheat has been modified quite a lot in the over 6000 years that it has been grown. I am not sure how much more can be done with it.

Fourth, I did mention alcohol as a possible alternative to shipping wheat or some other grain or equivalent plant. In his book, Cosmic Computer, H. Beam Piper has a

fifteen-cc liqueur glass of Poictesme brandy

selling on Terra for "one Sol", presumably the equivalent of One Credit. Figuring 66 of those shots of liquor per liter, and 1,000 Liters per cubic meter, that equals 66,0000 credits per cubic meter of Poictesme melon brandy, with a possible load of 13.5 cubic meters per Traveller dTon. If Biter is producing something like that, then you can support a fairly expensive transportation network, using Grav Vehicles or converted star ships. Even if you were selling it for 10% of that price, you still would be collecting 89,100 Credits per Traveller dTon.

 

[aramis]

Note that TNE establishes, and T4 also uses, a 10 tonne cap for 1 Td...
So 1 Td is (whichever holds less of) 13.5 kL or 10 tonnes.

Just like a TEU of stuff is the inside of container or a specific mass limit for said container or platform (noting that 1TEU and 2TEU flatbeds ARE made, with a flat bed and 4 or 8 posts).

 

[kilemall]

Note that TNE establishes, and T4 also uses, a 10 tonne cap for 1 Td...
So 1 Td is (whichever holds less of) 13.5 kL or 10 tonnes.

Just like a TEU of stuff is the inside of container or a specific mass limit for said container or platform (noting that 1TEU and 2TEU flatbeds ARE made, with a flat bed and 4 or 8 posts).

I suspect that's a little low. Most of the density tonnages I get for common loads, of which grain is middling, are averaging around 11 metric tons. I'll have to work that out, but the average US covered hopper railcar is carrying 90 US tons or so, and that's just our pokey TL and materials science.

It's true that containers have a limit and if the load is too heavy they will only fill up half. I think that is a function of safe ship loading as much as stresses on the container and the stacks.

 

[whartung]

I suspect that's a little low.

10 Tonnes is a better number for human beings than 11.347 Tonnes. That whole "it's a game" thing.

 

[kilemall]

10 Tonnes is a better number for human beings than 11.347 Tonnes. That whole "it's a game" thing.

Oh drat, caught with my hand in the gearhead cookie jar!

 

[Timerover51]

Note that TNE establishes, and T4 also uses, a 10 tonne cap for 1 Td...
So 1 Td is (whichever holds less of) 13.5 kL or 10 tonnes.

Just like a TEU of stuff is the inside of container or a specific mass limit for said container or platform (noting that 1TEU and 2TEU flatbeds ARE made, with a flat bed and 4 or 8 posts).

That is pretty reasonable, as a Liberty Ship would equate to 1420 Traveller dTons, with a deadweight cargo capacity of just over 10,000 long tons mass. That would equal slightly over 7 long tons per Traveller dTon.

 

[Enoki]

How about Blue Grama? A favorite food of cattle and buffalo, along with prairie dogs.

http://www.blueplanetbiomes.org/blue_grama-grass.htm

If you want tough cattle, try the Texas Longhorn, tough in more ways than one.

There are lots of suitable examples. I just gave two. The idea is that there are "free" grasses and such for livestock that would work, and no doubt more in terms of Traveller. You just have to not have an environmental movement that will fight "invasive species."

However, if you are going to ship either fresh or frozen meat, you need either a ship designed as a refrigerator ship, or load the meat into refrigerated cargo pods.

Once in the upper atmosphere, cooling things is not going to be a problem...

Also, for the ideas of pulling the jump and maneuver drive out of a ship and using it for planetary hauling, how are you moving it without the maneuver drive? If you are using it within the atmosphere, then extremely high speeds are not needed, so a minimal engineering plant of Power Plant A and Maneuver Drive A may be all that you need.

As allowed in Striker and from MT on, you can design grav vehicles. No difference here. There is zero reason you can't design a 200 to 500 ton grav vehicle that is a non-starship.

With respect to the wheat issue, first, I am using a value of 13.5 cubic meters for Traveller dTon volume, second I am using the bulk cargo loading value for wheat from TM 55-15, Transportation Reference Data, U.S. Army, December 1963, based on what a ship can carry per cubic foot based on long experience with grain loading. Third, wheat has been modified quite a lot in the over 6000 years that it has been grown. I am not sure how much more can be done with it.

If the bulk is such that it is unprofitable to move without some refinement, put a mill at the collection site. If you were moving something like cotton, gin it before shipping and compact the product to take less space.

Fourth, I did mention alcohol as a possible alternative to shipping wheat or some other grain or equivalent plant. In his book, Cosmic Computer, H. Beam Piper has a selling on Terra for "one Sol", presumably the equivalent of One Credit. Figuring 66 of those shots of liquor per liter, and 1,000 Liters per cubic meter, that equals 66,0000 credits per cubic meter of Poictesme melon brandy, with a possible load of 13.5 cubic meters per Traveller dTon. If Biter is producing something like that, then you can support a fairly expensive transportation network, using Grav Vehicles or converted star ships. Even if you were selling it for 10% of that price, you still would be collecting 89,100 Credits per Traveller dTon.

What you ship is largely irrelevant to the basic argument here. It is clearly possible for a world with access to grav technology or water based shipping to do without a serious road or railroad network where those can be used.

After all, if the world(s) involved invented ethanol yesterday it might very well be illegal...

 

[JimMarn]

Texas Longhorns were also not known for having lots of meat on them. They were the first ones driven up the trails to Kansas to the railroads, but later on cattle with more beef on them came along via breeding and they were taken to closer railheads. Beef cattle lose meat and fat if driven without adequate feed and water. If you can find copies, I suggest looking up J. Frank Dobie's books: 'Vaquero', 'The Mustang', etc. He talked to old retired cow hands about the Big Die Off due to blizzards in the late 1800s, what it was like trying to get Longhorns out of the Big Thicket in Texas, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Frank_Dobie

You might find some useful ideas on cattle drives for newly settled worlds.