Yes, another "Impressions and Questions" thread

[rancke]

So what? Why does the unreality of a game send you into such fits? Honestly, Supp4 I have never seen any player attack the probabilities as you do. Dude, do you play systems or just analyse their math?

I would find that particular rule blatantly unrealistic without having to do a detailed mathematical analysis.

Whether I would use it anyway depends on whether I found it sufficiently game friendly to outweigh the strain on my WSoD and better than any alternate game mechanic that didn't put such a strain on my WSoD.


Hans

 

[whulorigan]

Perhaps the simplest solution is to have a sidebar in the core-rules detailing the two methods as "Options" depending upon whether "cinematic" or "gritty-realistic" style play is preferred.

The Spectacular Success/Failure/Interesting rules as written do provide for that larger-than-life cinematic feel (at the sacrifice of realistic believability under certain circumstances), but that is not to everyone's taste. Perhaps a sidebar detailing an alternate methodology for Spectacular Success/Failure that is more mathematically realistic based on skill and/or difficulty (of which much has been discussed or proposed in other threads - I will not repeat them all here).

 

[rancke]

Perhaps the simplest solution is to have a sidebar in the core-rules detailing the two methods as "Options" depending upon whether "cinematic" or "gritty-realistic" style play is preferred.

That sounds like an excellent idea to me.


Hans

 

[Vladika]

Yes, that is one thing I can say for T5, is that I see lots of bits that I want to borrow or modify to incorporate into my CT game. I never felt that way in reading through MgT.

In that regard, there is MUCH I do like about T5. I cherry pick and so forth.

Particularly the "use multiple drives" which was forbidden in CT. That was a change long overdue. It should have been implemented when HG2 came out with the accounting for Energy Points.

Also, the various accommodations in T5 are much more sensible. Bunks and Spacer niches etc. They make perfect sense for Troop transport AND avoiding Low Berths altogether. (Except for ELBs...)

DonM helped put together a list of "add on" items from Karaoke bars to Galleys, and Libraries to Labs and Repair shops.

House Rule: I use them in CT as a plus modifier when on a ship and fully staffed. (I believe MgT used several of them too?)

Ex: Vilani Kitchen = Plus 1 D6 for High Passengers and plus 1 to Steward skill.

Ex: Mechanical Shop = Plus 1 for repair attempts and one attempt for EACH mechanic devoted solely to the Shop.

 

[Supplement Four]

So what? Why does the unreality of a game send you into such fits? Honestly, Supp4 I have never seen any player attack the probabilities as you do. Dude, do you play systems or just analyse their math? Seriously, no one is tying on any blindfolds since that would be obvious meta gaming and sure to bring a nasty fiat to your neck of the woods (plus you can't see the blue wire, wait, red). Taking a fair shot to try and do the Spectacular is fine, looking through the probabilities and adding ridiculous modifiers is cheating and will be punished. So, in the end, I think you are incorrect, seem to dislike players having cinematic luck/adventures, and spend more analyzing your odds and less time playing.

So, other than the fact you don't like that it bends probability in ways that offend you, really what is so wrong with the Mechanic, I mean besides it not being real and cruel enough?

It's broken, and you're going to defend it to the end, eh?

The reason people buy games is to pay people to do the work of creating the game's universe for them, whether that be mechanically with game systems or with background material. Otherwise, we'd just make up our own games from scratch.

You don't think the game designer, from whom we purchase the stuff, has an obligation to create fair, logical rules?

If one Traveller game book gave you an autorifle that did 2D damage, and another Traveller book came out with a revolver that did 6D damage with no explanation as to why the damage was so high when compared with the rifle, you'd reject one or the other, right?

Why?

Because it's not logical.

The Spectacular Success Rule in T5 is not logical.

There are other ways to introduce the concept of Spectacular Success that are logical.

Therefore, I've got an issue with it. (And, so should you!)





When I put my money into these games, I expect that the game designer has put the work into looking at the implications of his own rules. I expect the rules to make sense. I expect them to be logical.

I, yes, I like "heroic" rules as much as I like "simulationist" rules, as long as those rules are logical and do not blow my suspension of disbelief.

 

[Supplement Four]

So, in the end, I think you are incorrect, seem to dislike players having cinematic luck/adventures, and spend more analyzing your odds and less time playing.

snip

So, other than the fact you don't like that it bends probability in ways that offend you, really what is so wrong with the Mechanic, I mean besides it not being real and cruel enough?

Several times on this very forum I've toted the exceptional D6 Star Wars game. If that game doesn't allow heroic action, especially through the Force, I don't know which game would.

I love that game. I love not only the universe in which it is set, but I also love the simple, well-thought-out, exceptionally implemented, game mechanics.

Game mechanics that allow heroic action in a logical way within the guidelines of the game's universe.

With T5, the Spectacular Success rule does not have to be broken. There are ways to keep the concept in the game and still have a rule that makes sense!

 

[Hemdian]

This thread is like deja-vu all over again. The same old re-re-rehashing of issues. That, and chastising the OP for not being sufficiently negative in his initial impressions. (Well I hope SpaceBadger has learned his lesson now.)

Does T5 have issues? Yes. Is it still playable? Apparently yes. Sure you might need to make a houserule here and there while we wait for Marc's official fixes but who doesn't do that anyway?

As for the money side of things, I'd be curious to know how many people here actually purchased their copies of T5 as opposed to getting it as a kickstarter reward.

 

[Supplement Four]

Does T5 have issues? Yes. Is it still playable? Apparently yes. Sure you might need to make a houserule here and there while we wait for Marc's official fixes but who doesn't do that anyway?

In other words, just be happy with what we received, regardless of our disappointment in what we hoped we were getting?

As for the money side of things, I'd be curious to know how many people here actually purchased their copies of T5 as opposed to getting it as a kickstarter reward.

I purchased mine from the web site.

 

[dalthor]

DonM helped put together a list of "add on" items from Karaoke bars to Galleys, and Libraries to Labs and Repair shops.

For those of us that stay out of this debate type, but like add-ons that help, where can I find Don's add-ons mentioned above? I've located some "Don's house rules", but don't remember seeing that anywhere.

Of course, with the plethora of info around here that doesn't surprise me.

Thanks!

 

[DonM]

I read through this thread, and near the end it feels like we've all gathered at a funeral, whispering in low tones about a passing friend.

Look, I'm getting ready to spend a whole day over at Marc's house thrashing out how to fix T5's personal combat. And there's a lot more of that to do.

And while I may have disagreed with Marc about releasing T5 as it is, I understand that mentally he needed to get it out there, that this forces him to make needed changes, instead of spending another year tinkering with bits here and there.

So it's out, and it's got problems. We'll get them fixed. If you want to stick with us as we travel down that road, I'll be happy for the company. But if what you wanted was a reprint of a 30 year old game, that was never in Marc's plans, and I'm sorry if you are disappointed for it. I'm going to see where Captain Miller takes us, but if you want to stay where you're at, we'll all continue to pick nits in a friendly fashion.

But no one is dead yet, especially Traveller. If anything, Stars Without Number, Mindjammer and OLD is NEW simply show there's plenty of room for growth.

And I'm very excited about Liftoff. If anything, because it's bringing back together a couple of people that never should have gotten separated in the first place.

Ok, funeral's over. Back to the errata, folks.

 

[Vladika]

Purchased, $75 plus $15 shipping, just to be clear.

 

[mike wightman]

I got mine from the kickstarter, and then bought another in the game store.

I will never use the task system, character generation, combat, ship construction or ship combat rules.

Just about everything else I have found a use for.

I'm glad Don has brought up the state of play for sci-fi rpgs. I weakened and bought Mindjammer. It could easily have been written using the MgT engine instead they used fate or something. I hate the system, but the setting, the rules etc are going into the mix for my Traveller TL16-22 campaign. As is stuff from T5.

Traveller lift off - a new introduction to Traveller based on the MgT rules.

If only T5 were compatible,,,

 

[Hemdian]

In other words, just be happy with what we received, regardless of our disappointment in what we hoped we were getting?

That's not what I said. As long as the points you've raised were recorded on the errata thread then they are in Marc's queue to deal with. In the meantime what are you trying to achieve with reminding us again and again?

 

[Vladika]

For those of us that stay out of this debate type, but like add-ons that help, where can I find Don's add-ons mentioned above? I've located some "Don's house rules", but don't remember seeing that anywhere.

Of course, with the plethora of info around here that doesn't surprise me.

Thanks!

First of all I was in error about DonM being part of this.

Second, I'm posting a portion of the following document, sincerely believing it to be in the public realm. There was NO claim of copy write in, or on, the file.

By Omer "Employee #2-4601" Golan
With additional material by Sigg Oddra, Dan "far-trader" Burns and BeRKA
And the general help of the Citizens of the Imperium online community

Preface and Notes
The first Classic Traveller edition to come out in 1977 included three "Little Black Books" (or "LBBs" for short). LBB1 dealt with character generation and personal combat; LBB2 dealt with starship operation, design and combat; LBB3 dealt with world generation, equipment and adventures. Over the time, the material presented in these books was expanded by several more LBBs (Mercenary and High Guard) for example. However, the starship design and combat rules presented in High Guard (HG for short) had a profoundly different set of assumptions for LBB2, and favored, for example, large naval battles between giant starships instead of LBB2's more character-level,
maneuver-based space combat between small ships. Due to these reasons, LBB2 remained a popular starship design and combat system even to this day. This article attempts to allow LBB2 fans (such as the author) to expand their LBB2 experience and to greatly diversify their ship design options.
All the rules suggested here are intended for Classic Traveller's Book 2, though they should be adaptable, with some work, to other versions of Traveller.

Part Six: Miscellaneous Components
Designed with the help of Sigg Oddra, Dan "far-trader" Burns and BeRKA
The following ship components are presented in a "modular" design; for larger components, simply
multiply the module's base tonnage, cost, personnel requirement and capacity by the number of
modules used. Note that the modules are presented here mostly for the sake of convenience; when
designing a deck plan, feel free to unite several modules into a single, larger facility.
Bar: A shipboard bar requires one Bartender and may seat up to 12 patrons (though it is usually
connected to a larger Lounge). Each module displaces 6 dtons and costs MCr2.
Casino: A luxury gambling hall. A shipboard casino requires three operators and may host 15
gamblers per module. Each module displaces 20 dton and costs MCr5.
Duty Free Shop: A Tax-Free shop, selling various consumer goods to the passengers and the crew
requires one salesperson, displaces 10 dtons and costs MCr2.
Extended Medlab: While each ship has a small medical facility subsumed in its stateroom cost and
tonnage, some designers may wish to include a larger, better equipped medlab in their designs. An
Extended Medlab holds hospital-grade medical equipment and allows for complex medical
procedures (such as extensive surgical operations) to take place; it requires one Medic and treats up
to two patients per module, displaces 8 dtons and costs MCr8.
Factory: A shipboard factory usually produced one product or a series of related products; the types
and amounts of raw materials needed for production are left for the referee's discretion. A Factory
Module requires 10 workers, displaces 100 dtons and costs MCr50.
Grav-Ball Court: An arena fit to play most Grav (or Zero-Grav) enhanced sports displaces 40 dtons
and costs MCr2.
Karaoke Bar: A Karaoke Bar requires one operator/bartender and may sit up to 16 persons (but
usually this will be connected to a lounge). Each module displaces 8 dtons and costs MCr3.
Kitchen (High Class): A kitchen fit to serve rich or noble passengers requires one Chef and one
Assistant Chef and may cook meals for up to 50 persons at once. Each module displaces 10 dton
and costs MCr5.
Kitchen (Vilani): A Vilani-style extended kitchen requires one Chef and two Assistant Chefs and
may cook meals for up to 50 persons at once. Each module 10 dtons and costs MCr10.
Library: A small library combining "hard-copy" and electronic texts as well as other forms of media
requires one librarian, may seat up to 5 persons, displaces 10 dtons and costs MCr5.
Lounge: While each ship has a small galley/mess hall subsumed in its stateroom cost and tonnage,
this facility provides only minimal services fit for a military, exploratory or cargo ship but hardly
enough for a luxury cruiser. A luxury lounge displaces 10 dton, costs MCr2 and may seat up to 20
persons per module.
Machine Shop: A small workshop capable of fabricating some types of spare parts and of repairing
equipment; its exact capabilities and raw material requirements are left for the referee's discretion. A
Machine Shop requires one skilled worker (with the appropriate skill to the item being
produced/repaired), masses 10 dtons and costs MCr5.
Mass Driver: A large magnetic rail-launcher designed for slinging cargoes over interplanetary
distances. A mass driver is too slow and inaccurate to be used in ship combat, but may be used as a
planetary bombardment weapon. It requires a crew of four, displaces 25 dtons, and costs MCr26.
Ore Processing Bay: This huge refinery is capable of processing most compounds found in
planetoids into semi-refined raw materials which could easily be shipped to other locations. It
requires 40 workers, displaces 400 dtons, and costs MCr250.
Scientific Laboratory (Advanced): A full-scale, high-tech laboratory easily reconfigurable for
various scientific needs; it can also be used as a general-purpose lab onboard an exploratory ship.
Each module requires one scientist or lab-tech displaces 16 dtons and costs MCr16.
Scientific Laboratory (Simple): A basic, general-purpose lab designed for frontier use. Each
module requires one scientist or lab-tech displaces 8 dtons and costs MCr5.
Spa: A smaller version of the swimming pool, the Spa requires two operators, may bath up to 15
persons at once, displaces 10 dtons and costs MCR5.
Swimming Pool: An onboard swimming pool, including filtration systems and an airlock to prevent
leaks in the event of shipboard gravity failure, displaces 12 dtons and costs MCr1.
Restaurant (excluding kitchen): A high-class restaurant requires 4 waiters and may seat up to 40
persons. Each module displaces 20 dtons and costs MCr5.
Vehicle Workshop (Full): A workshop capable of performing virtually any kind of vehicle work
(including overhauls, and turret or power plant replacement) requires two Mechanics, displaces
200% of the tonnage of the largest vehicle it could repair and costs 200% of the price of the most
expensive vehicle it could repair.
Vehicle Workshop (Minimal): A workshop capable of doing small-scale repairs to vehicles requires
one Mechanic, displaces 110% of the tonnage of the largest vehicle it could repair and costs 110%
of the price of the most expensive vehicle it could repair.​

​

 

[Hemdian]

<snip>

<Like> ... Oops, too much time on Facebook.

I want to redo my T5 Personal Combat video on YouTube, but I've been waiting for the answers to some outstanding issues first.

 

[mike wightman]

Wow, where did you dig that up.

(Sigg Oddra was my name on these boards until someone swapped our anonymous user names with our account name.)

 

[Vladika]

Wow, where did you dig that up.

(Sigg Oddra was my name on these boards until someone swapped our anonymous user names with our account name.)

I can't really remember where I found it but thought some of it was actually used in FFS and possibly other Traveller editions. I thought it made great sense, especially in light of Leviathan.

 

[Supplement Four]

I read through this thread, and near the end it feels like we've all gathered at a funeral, whispering in low tones about a passing friend.

Look, I'm getting ready to spend a whole day over at Marc's house thrashing out how to fix T5's personal combat. And there's a lot more of that to do.

And while I may have disagreed with Marc about releasing T5 as it is, I understand that mentally he needed to get it out there, that this forces him to make needed changes, instead of spending another year tinkering with bits here and there.

So it's out, and it's got problems. We'll get them fixed. If you want to stick with us as we travel down that road, I'll be happy for the company. But if what you wanted was a reprint of a 30 year old game, that was never in Marc's plans, and I'm sorry if you are disappointed for it. I'm going to see where Captain Miller takes us, but if you want to stay where you're at, we'll all continue to pick nits in a friendly fashion.

But no one is dead yet, especially Traveller. If anything, Stars Without Number, Mindjammer and OLD is NEW simply show there's plenty of room for growth.

And I'm very excited about Liftoff. If anything, because it's bringing back together a couple of people that never should have gotten separated in the first place.

Ok, funeral's over. Back to the errata, folks.

Don,

What are the plans for releasing the corrected material? Are we talking a pdf that anybody can download? A new book (people have spoken of a Player's Manual). A corrected printing of the core rule book--Revised & Expanded or Second Edition?

 

[Supplement Four]

In the meantime what are you trying to achieve with reminding us again and again?

I didn't start the thread.

 

[SpaceBadger]

I love T5. I think it could have been done in a smaller font which would have either saved pages, or allowed better and more explanations and examples.

Please consider our aging population of Traveller players with failing eyesight. We already have to deal with fine print on medicine bottles, etc, that might as well not be there as it is impossible to read. Having that same issue with a game book that I wanted to read would be torture - although at least in PDF format I can zoom the page to improve readability, can't do that with books.

I don't see the need for all the probability tables to me they are a waste of space which would have been better used on examples again.

I think the probability tables should be included, as many players may not have the math background to work these out for themselves, and even for those of us that could do it, it saves repetitive work. I just disagree with their placement; instead of a mass of number table early in the book to intimidate new readers, they should have been in an appendix at the end, handy for reference as needed.

I really like the Makers, and my interpretation of the combat system. I have recreated all the ships from MT and CT that i have had access too (well ACS size ones) and they have been pretty accurate. I re-created most of the weapons and equipment from CT and MT and again they are very faithful recreations.

I also agree that the Makers are a very useful addition to Traveller (when errata are fixed, anyway), but again their placement in the text is like running into a wall. They should have been in appendices, or maybe even a separate Ref's Guide book.