Can you ask me that again when we get there. I'd much rather argue over a real soon corrected printing than a future one, especially when Marc gives more information that what I've already posted.
Yes, another "Impressions and Questions" thread
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Can you ask me that again when we get there. I'd much rather argue over a real soon corrected printing than a future one, especially when Marc gives more information that what I've already posted.
In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war
Hey... you're peeking at the reveal on moving the timeline forward. Stop that right now! :rofl:
:CoW:
I need to store this and quote it. Thanks.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
My intent was to note the coarse similarities between CT/MT/MgT and that perhaps it would have made more sense to base T5 on tried and tested rules and make it compatible.
Here's another way to look at it.
Can you take a CT generated character and play MT or MgT with it? Can you take A MT character and run it with Ct and MgT? That's what I mean by compatible.
And leaving dead games aside, MgT is in print, well supported, played. Making T5 compatible with it should have been a prime consideration.
My experience with MT character generation is that you end up with an average of 2 skills per term in most careers with a special duty and promotion roll.
A T5 character is difficult to convert to CT/MT/MgT.
A MgT character is easy to convert to CT/MT etc.
The entire task resolution system and combat system could have been built around this, then he goes back to T4's awful system.
It's his game, we gave him our money freely, no worries.
As I have said, there is lots of good stuff in T5, most of it connected with campaign design and filling in details. it is the character generation, task system and personal combat rules that are most broken and least compatible.
MgT generates characters with a similar skill level range to MT, unlike T5 where you may have 3 times as many skills with level 4 being common and 8 perfectly doable. I didn't claim that MGT builds from HG, only T20 had the sense to do that. The MgT task system is similar to MT, 2d6 roll over versus target number bonus due to skill level and characteristic - the difference is in the detail. The MGT skill list is similar to CT and similar to MT, similar to T5 in fact. Similar does not mean the same as.
Here's another way to look at it.
Can you take a CT generated character and play MT or MgT with it? Can you take A MT character and run it with Ct and MgT? That's what I mean by compatible.
And leaving dead games aside, MgT is in print, well supported, played. Making T5 compatible with it should have been a prime consideration.
This actually makes my point for me, thank you.
My experience with MT character generation is that you end up with an average of 2 skills per term in most careers with a special duty and promotion roll.
A T5 character is difficult to convert to CT/MT/MgT.
A MgT character is easy to convert to CT/MT etc.
At one point early in the development of T5 Marc's drafts made it look like flux (1d6-1d6, results of -5 to +5) would become a core mechanic.
The entire task resolution system and combat system could have been built around this, then he goes back to T4's awful system.
It's his game, we gave him our money freely, no worries.
As I have said, there is lots of good stuff in T5, most of it connected with campaign design and filling in details. it is the character generation, task system and personal combat rules that are most broken and least compatible.
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David Johansen
SOC-12
I suppose, if by difficult you mean "divide skill levels by two." For CT it would be divide "skill levels by four."
Fine, but if "the laughter of thirsting gods" comes into it I'll have to find the person responsible and beat them with a stick.
WRONG.
To do a proper conversion...
You have to first find the equivalent skills
Account for the nastiness that is the "knowledges" system
divide by 2 to 3, depending upon career
Conversions between CT and MT also suffer the skill list issue, even tho' the overall skill levels are similar.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
A character in MgT/CT/MT with pilot 2 requires no conversion at all.
CT extended character generation and basic MT give similar results in total number of skills to a basic MgT career.
In MT a typical character will get 3 skill rolls per term, often more with the rule of 4 and the auto skills if you pick the right careers.
MgT may give an extra skill or two on top of that but most will be level 1.
Compare the sample characters from MT and MgT.
CT extended character generation and basic MT give similar results in total number of skills to a basic MgT career.
In MT a typical character will get 3 skill rolls per term, often more with the rule of 4 and the auto skills if you pick the right careers.
MgT may give an extra skill or two on top of that but most will be level 1.
Compare the sample characters from MT and MgT.
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Game environments
FFE is not a large operation. I'll stick with it because I think it has the right direction. If Marc wants to build on T4 then so be it. It's his product line.
Comprehensive Rule discussions are great, and this one started on the right foot, but the "should haves" really miss the point.
The fan base and test time is too short to come up with the "perfect" product everytime. I guess Lester broke me of saying, "yeah, but..." 30 years ago.
FFE is not a large operation. I'll stick with it because I think it has the right direction. If Marc wants to build on T4 then so be it. It's his product line.
Comprehensive Rule discussions are great, and this one started on the right foot, but the "should haves" really miss the point.
The fan base and test time is too short to come up with the "perfect" product everytime. I guess Lester broke me of saying, "yeah, but..." 30 years ago.
I have - and the MGT Engineer doesn't have "Engineer" - he's got "Power Plant" or "Jump Drive".
The MGT skill list is not the same principles as the CT/MT ones, and many skills do NOT cross over directly. I'm too lazy to rerun the list at the moment.
MT had a guiding principle of "Many Skills can serve as other skills at a 1 level penalty" - MGT lacks that, so when you convert in either direction, characters change capabilities as well.
You know I think it is the lazy Referee problem I have with your ludicrous examples. Like disarming a bomb with a blindfold on or escaping a locked cell with your hands restrained behind your back.
Seriously, in each of those cases the player does not get to roll dice, the Referee does. Unless who have an alternate sense like Awareness and are wearing the blindfold to "see" only electrical fields and not be distracted by light, you are randomly pulling stuff and I, the Ref roll and see if you break the bomb or set it off.
In this most recent example again, someone is not doing their job as a Referee. Quite simply, dude with free hands is actively escaping his cell, hands tied dude is busy right now trying to free his hands so he can escape the cell and taunt dude with the free hands for having sucky dice while he attempts to escape his cell while yelling at the free smart-ass to "just get the damned keys will ya?".
So, I guess my real point is in your examples it is not the Rules that are not working, it is the Referee. :devil:
Pending the Prosecutor's response, the Defense rests, Your Honor.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
That's actually not true. In MT and beyond, one skill level almost universally equals to +1 on the dice throw.
With CT, a skill level can mean a number of things. For example,
It means a +1/level on a Gun Combat attack.
It means a +4/level on a Vacc Suit roll to avoid dangerous situations after performing a non-standard action in zero-G.
It means a +2/level for many Engineering rolls.
And, it means nothing, or it means a single +1 (not per level), when making the throw to pull a passenger out of low berth, depending if the skill is Medic-2 or better.
My point: Conversion with CT skills and other Traveller edition skills is not at all easy, and probably impossible, because skill levels cannot be compared on any consistent basis.
Vacc Suit+1 in CT is more akin to Vacc Suit-4 in MT (than it is to Vacc Suit-1 in MT)
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Why would the ref roll dice when a player is trying to use his character to diffuse a bomb or open a locked cell door?
You are attacking the examples that are meant to show how ludicrous the rule can be, and you're ignoring the problem with the rule.
You want an example that could easily happen in a game? OK, here...
You've got two player characters. Both have stats 777777. Both characters have been captured by bad guys.
When they were captured in the game, one of the characters attempted immediate escape, so the guards put some magna-cuffs on him. We'll call him Ziip.
The other character, Aloe, has his hands free.
Both characters are put into storage rooms with heavy doors that the bad guys are using as prisoner cells. The doors have simple keypad that opens and locks them. Once the guards are gone, both characters study the electronic locks. The Ref tells them that, since the room is meant as a storage facility and not a prison, getting the cover and keypad to come apart from the door will be an effort. But, after some time and some raw finger tips (and maybe some torn fingernails), the lock's circuitry is exposed.
Both characters have Electronics-1.
The Ref decides that, for Aloe, who has his hands free and can face the lock, that the character can hotwire the door with a successful Formidable Electronics roll.
The TiH rule kicks in, and this becomes a 5D, Staggering, task.
Aloe can succeed on this task in two ways. He can roll 8- on 5D, which is a less than 1% chance of success. Or, he can roll Spectacular Success by rolling three ones on his 5D. That's a 3.5% chance.
For Ziip, the Ref decides that it is an Impossible task for the character to get off the cover and re-wire the lock to get the door open. The lock is about a foot above Ziip's waist, and Ziip's arms are locked behind his back with the magna-cuffs. He can't see what he's doing. This is why the Ref justifies an 8D Impossible task.
The TiH rule kicks in again, and it becomes a 9D Beyond Impossible task.
Ziip can only succeed on this task if he rolls three ones for Spectacular Success. And, he's got a 16% chance to do so!
Let's say the player playing Ziip doesn't know the odds, and in an effort to better his position on the lock, he slips his legs through his arms so that his cuffed hands are in front of him, now. At least, the player thinks, Ziip can now see what he's doing.
So, the Ref lowers the task for this. He's generous and makes the task Staggering (5D). The TiH rule kicks in, making this a 6D task for the hand-cuffed character.
Ziip can succeed now in one of two ways. He can roll 8- on 6D, which is a less than 1% chance of probability. Or, he can hope for Spectacular Success, which is a 6% chance of success.
Here's the kicker: Zipp actually cuts his chances by more than HALF by improving his position on the lock so that he can see it!
Given these three circumstances, logic would tell you that Aloe should have the best chance of success. Followed by Ziip with hands in front. Followed by Ziip with hands in back.
But, the EXACT OPPOSITE IS TRUE!
Ziip, hands in back has an 16% chance of success. (over double the chance of hand in front and four times Aloe)
Ziip, hands in front, has a 6% chance of success. (double Aloe)
Aloe has a 3.5% chance of success.
DOES THAT REALLY SEEM RIGHT TO YOU?
Let's go one more step....
A third PC prisoner was taken. He also has stats 777777, but he's got Electronics-3.
The Ref gives this character, Cato, the same task that the gave to Aloe. It's a 4D Formidable task to re-wire the door.
Cato has a 16% chance of success.
THAT'S RIGHT!! CATO, WITH ELECTRONICS-3, THE MOST SKILLED OF ANY OF THE THREE CHARACTERS, HAS THE SAME CHANCE AT RE-WIRING THE DOOR AS ZIIP, WHO CAN'T SEE THE LOCK AND HAS HIS HANDS BEHIND HIS BACK!!!
Did I really need to go to all that length just to show you how the T5 SS rule is broken?
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Here's a GENERAL RULE OF THUMB for T5 Players.
If your target number is close to the number of difficulty dice, you are almost always better off by making the task harder and hoping for three ones and a Spectacular Success result.
If your target number is close to the number of difficulty dice, you are almost always better off by making the task harder and hoping for three ones and a Spectacular Success result.
David Johansen
SOC-12
You know? That's a really good fix. Marc should use it.
Though there's always all ones is spectacular success and all sixes is spectacular failure.
Though there's always all ones is spectacular success and all sixes is spectacular failure.
Actually, that would create the opposite problem (i.e. Spectacular Failure would get less likely the more difficult the task).
You would want ALL-1's as Spectacular Success and THREE 6's Spectacular Failure.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
The problem with both of those fixes is that the chance of SS goes down so far (parts of a single percent) that SS will never happen in a game, for all practical purposes.
One suggestion that I've made is this: Clicky, clicky.
Spectacular Success < Skill + Difficulty
Add skill to the die code of the task's difficulty. If the result of the throw is equal to or less than this number, then Spectacular Success has occurred.
Examples and discussion on this in the other thread.
Again, you miss my point.
Because, if you actually read the post, the player gave up agency when they decided to do something that prevents them from using their Skill. You need to see the bomb's innards in order to use your Bomb Defusing Skill, which ever that may be, if you can not see the innards to evaluate which part is most likely the correct one to remove to render the device safe then you are not using your Skill, you are doing random things and the Referee handles non-player randomness. Also, did you miss the Uncertain part in rolling some tasks? Defusing bombs with blindfolds on is about as Uncertain as it gets.
Quite simply because they are ludicrous, they remove the player's agency and replaces it with randomness.
Hells, yes!
Good so far...
Still good. In fact those guards get a bonus for quick action without recourse to lethal means. Bravo, way to go, Zebra Squad! Okay, moving on...
Stipulated.
Not sure what kind of locked storage you are familiar with but most of the ones I have come across do not have locks on the interior, just on the exterior next to the door. See, this is where we start having problems, we have some different standards on such simple things as what constitutes a locked heavy storage room. But still, silly as I think the lock placement is I will let that slide for now.
So, where are they getting the tools? Screws are notoriously difficult to remove with merely fingers. And the guards after looking so good after putting Ziip in manga-cuffs, fail at searching the prisoners and confiscating their leathermans. Bad guards, demerits all around. :devil: Since the guards failed at Guard 101, Aloe can indeed remove the cover of the e-lock.
Works for me.
Right, so what is the big deal, a 3.5% better chance to achieve the same result with pure luck and less Skill? Again, that does not bother me and does not seem like it is broken. (EDIT: Just re-read this and realized that I missed the "less than" before the "1%", so corrected the number. Still feel the same. "Big deal.", said the Rec Lectroid.)
Now see here is where we start having real problems. That first sentence should end at "Impossible" and not continued with any thing after that word since that would imply they could even attempt it. Ziip isn't even getting to work with the e-lock other than randomly pushing buttons with his nose and praying to Lords of Space that he gets out. Or, he could attempt the not so impossible task of escaping the manga-cuffs and then see if he can crack the lock.
As I stated above, he has no chance till he escapes the cuffs. Seriously, Supp4 ever been in cuffs? I have. Let me tell you, you are not messing around with e-locks or much of anything till you escape the restraints that were designed to keep you from doing anything remotely like escaping. Not saying it can't be done, just that it is the very first task of any self-escape. Not such a big deal when others are helping you.
Well, that allows him some leeway, but he is still hampered in using his leatherman and having his hands cuffed together still hampers the task, but finally Ziip can try and mess with the lock.
Again this is leaning towards some soon to be painful meta-gaming and also is ridiculous. Once you can not see an object you no longer get to actively engage with it. Again, as soon as you stop looking and start doing random things without looking again, I, the Referee start rolling the dice. Also, again, that +5% doesn't really bother me at all. It isn't that big a percentage.
No, it doesn't I still don't understand how Ziip with cuffs behind back is even getting a roll. As to the other, *shrugs* no, not really. But then I really don't care about the math, I care about having some fun and rousing cinematic adventures. I am the soft-science guy among you hard-science guys. I play fast and loose in my games and the numbers are not some damned cast in stone, unbreakable, only way to do it. For example is the This Hard rule, I had totally forgot and still only have a vague recollection of it. Not sure I would even use it, unless there was say someone being extra dickish and needed their pee-pee smacked. Then, I might hunt down all sorts of interesting Mods, DMs and TiH rules, but mostly, I make a wild ass guess based on my own experiences and those of players. It is one of the most difficult parts of sitting down and pre-writing adventures, I am used to winging it.
Sure why not.
No, he doesn't, he gets a roll and an easier one since he has Electronics-3 a simple storage room door lock is pretty easy for him. It is more likely a mere 3D roll. And again Ziip the Cuffed does not get a roll versus the e-lock.
Again, I don't sweat it since I make a lot up as I go, too don't care if luck favors the bold, in fact I kind of like it since I can now explain that in T5 it actually does make sense to attempt the hopeless and not smartly run away. Which is normally what I do when those bomb defusing moments come. But, I am a self admitted coward.
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General Warning From A T5 Referee.
mega:
As a fair warning to players in general and mine in specific: Following Supplement Four's General Rule of Thumb for T5 Players is most def Meta-gaming the odds and will be punished by the Gods of FairPlay. Be thou warned!
mega:
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To mitigate things, many disadvantages are reflected as negative modifiers to the Assets of the roll rather than an increase in the Difficulty level (which would require more dice that cause Spectacular Success/Spectacular Failure odds to accumulate).
Combat rolls wisely link Difficulty mainly to Range, but a player may choose Autofire for +1D and Snapfire for +2D to the Difficulty (and conversely +2D and +1D to the damage). What the heck is Snapfire? "Multiple unaimed operations of the weapon with significantly less accuracy." Sounds like "Spray and Pray" in a 3-D FPS computer-game. There would be no reason NOT to Snapfire like a mad banshee if your odds of hitting are already low.
So ironically if you are at extreme range to a target and their size is almost but not quite invisible at that range, you are able to extend the Difficulty by +2D and legitimately reach a sweet-spot of increased chance of Spectacular Success (but to be fair, Spectacular Failure also, like a bullet going 300 meters to bounce off a cop's Neutronium badge, and back 300 meters to hit you in the face.)o:
I dunno, man, sounds Broken to me. :CoW: A good fix might flatly say Spectacular Success is if 3 of the dice are of a different colour and all turn up 1 regardless of the total, and Spectacular Failure is if 3 of the dice are of a different colour and all turn up 6. This would be a flat 1/216 probability each regardless of total number of dice. Spectacularly Interesting would have two sets of 3 dice and be vanishingly small probability (1/46,656).
Hopefully that's not too much more to check on each dice-roll (and has the advantage of making more business for Marc's Traveller Dice Shack.)
Oh, and if your character is trying to pick the lock of their jail-cell, they should bang their heads on the floor and give themselves a concussion first. THAT ought to be good for more Difficulty, in that and every difficult task afterwards! :rofl:
Combat rolls wisely link Difficulty mainly to Range, but a player may choose Autofire for +1D and Snapfire for +2D to the Difficulty (and conversely +2D and +1D to the damage). What the heck is Snapfire? "Multiple unaimed operations of the weapon with significantly less accuracy." Sounds like "Spray and Pray" in a 3-D FPS computer-game. There would be no reason NOT to Snapfire like a mad banshee if your odds of hitting are already low.
So ironically if you are at extreme range to a target and their size is almost but not quite invisible at that range, you are able to extend the Difficulty by +2D and legitimately reach a sweet-spot of increased chance of Spectacular Success (but to be fair, Spectacular Failure also, like a bullet going 300 meters to bounce off a cop's Neutronium badge, and back 300 meters to hit you in the face.)
o:I dunno, man, sounds Broken to me. :CoW: A good fix might flatly say Spectacular Success is if 3 of the dice are of a different colour and all turn up 1 regardless of the total, and Spectacular Failure is if 3 of the dice are of a different colour and all turn up 6. This would be a flat 1/216 probability each regardless of total number of dice. Spectacularly Interesting would have two sets of 3 dice and be vanishingly small probability (1/46,656).
Hopefully that's not too much more to check on each dice-roll (and has the advantage of making more business for Marc's Traveller Dice Shack.)
Oh, and if your character is trying to pick the lock of their jail-cell, they should bang their heads on the floor and give themselves a concussion first. THAT ought to be good for more Difficulty, in that and every difficult task afterwards! :rofl:
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