Yes, another "Impressions and Questions" thread

[rancke]

I didn't start the thread.

A distinct point. There are topics that I no longer raise myself and acknowledge that others would be justified in being annoyed over if I did, but I do consider myself entitled to respond if someone posts something with which I disagree. (I may or may not do so, but I do not feel any guilt nor do I accept any blame if I do).


Hans

 

[Draconian]

Random musings again

T5 is what it is, and some things can be done to polish it. I blame myself for touching off a war because I did the exact probability math for Spectacular Success/Spectacular Failure/Spectacularly Interesting rolls.

In the old-school style, people must practice each sub-system. I found a lot of typos ended up in a critical place: the Career tables. Also every table for a career with "officers" had to have a correction in the steps (to prevent Commission and Promotion in the same 4-year term.) Okay, fine, we've been told what those errata are.

Hemdian's video documentaries are helpful and laid out the combat system, but there is still the question about how different damage applies to armor whether cumulatively or individually. There's a sequence of rules for attack, damage/injury, armor absorption and then physical effects (classic Traveller application to Str/Dex/End?), with a final calculation to give you Severity on how much effort you need to fix damage or injury. There is a bit more transduction going on than just "hit points" in other games. We have to convert dice and points carefully at each step. The rules peter out and go into a tunnel a little bit, but some have obviously figured it out from start to finish.

(Back in the day I had to figure it out for Leading Edge Games, Inc.'s games like RHAND and ALIENS; those guys were the least straightforward combat-rules writers that I ever saw.)

In the many systems that are looser and don't spell a life-or-death result for a character, like planet generation, the various maker systems, the stage effects, T5 is Good Stuff(TM). A worked out example of how different cultures end up with different equipment lists based on early adoption of an untried technology or ultimate development of an obsolete technology would be fun.

 

[SpaceBadger]

I didn't start the thread.

And I wish I hadn't.

I intended it for me to ask questions as I came across bits that I didn't understand, and it snowballed as I got frustrated that there was so much.

Sorry, guys.

 

[Vladika]

And I wish I hadn't.

I intended it for me to ask questions as I came across bits that I didn't understand, and it snowballed as I got frustrated that there was so much.

Sorry, guys.

Why? You didn't write it or publish it?

 

[SpaceBadger]

So it's out, and it's got problems. We'll get them fixed. If you want to stick with us as we travel down that road, I'll be happy for the company. But if what you wanted was a reprint of a 30 year old game, that was never in Marc's plans, and I'm sorry if you are disappointed for it. I'm going to see where Captain Miller takes us, but if you want to stay where you're at, we'll all continue to pick nits in a friendly fashion.

I want to stick around for the ride. I'm eager to see what fixes you and Marc come up with. As I told him in a recent email, I may be a fan of different versions of Traveller to greater or lesser degrees, but Marc Miller has always been good to me in our limited interactions, and he was the primary creator of this thing called Traveller that we are all apparently interested in enough to hang out here discussing it, so I am definitely a Loyal Fan of Marc Miller himself.

And I'm very excited about Liftoff. If anything, because it's bringing back together a couple of people that never should have gotten separated in the first place.

What is Liftoff?

 

[SpaceBadger]

Why? You didn't write it or publish it?

I started this thread, which turned into a rehash of lots of old complaints about T5. Not my intention at all.

 

[Vladika]

I started this thread, which turned into a rehash of lots of old complaints about T5. Not my intention at all.

I know it wasn't. Personally I'd like to start a thread on what those of us who are critical of T5 do actually like about it.

The problem with that, as I see it, would be that the cheerleaders would weigh in on how great it is, again, and then us naysayers would feel required to go the other way, again.

I find several things very positive about T5, though I'm obviously not an endorser.

From what I've seen so far, and participated in, T5 just can't seem to be discussed dispassionately, by either group.

 

[whulorigan]

What is Liftoff?

This:
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=32317
http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=71140

 

[David Johansen]

I'm unbelievably jealous of Germany's Rolemaster support. I have nothing nice left to say about ICE these days. I sure hope Traveller doesn't end up in the same boat, watching Germany get fantastic support while all we get is excuses.

 

[SpaceBadger]

This:
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=32317
http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=71140

Thank you. I had missed that, as I thought from the subject header that it was just another German Traveller publication (and although I have studied German, that was a long time ago and my German is... well, beyond rusty, say a small pile of iron oxide dust).

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

I promise I will only say mean stuff.

I know it wasn't. Personally I'd like to start a thread on what those of us who are critical of T5 do actually like about it.

The problem with that, as I see it, would be that the cheerleaders would weigh in on how great it is, again, and then us naysayers would feel required to go the other way, again.

I find several things very positive about T5, though I'm obviously not an endorser.

From what I've seen so far, and participated in, T5 just can't seem to be discussed dispassionately, by either group.

If you start this thread, I give you my word of honor I won't come in and cheerlead. Seriously, I am more curious to see what things the "hater" crowd likes about T5.

EDIT: I may come and ask questions though.

 

[DonM]

Don,

What are the plans for releasing the corrected material? Are we talking a pdf that anybody can download? A new book (people have spoken of a Player's Manual). A corrected printing of the core rule book--Revised & Expanded or Second Edition?

This is a good question.

What Marc and I have discussed at this point is a corrected printing, available at a reduced price to everyone who bought T5 original.

BEFORE that, I have heavily suggested some serious reviews, and the way Marc is handling Personal Combat is a test of "Don's Proposal".

Basically, my proposal is to take the core chapters that are required to run a game (ie, not the 'makers), find the most dedicated critics, have them review the existing errata for completeness (that's what I've send out already to two of the five nominees for combat), then I'll sit with Marc and he'll bang out all the fixes and review it for coherence, then Rob/Don/"the secret cabal" will review it, then the five nominees for that topic will review it, and then I hope to leak it onto COTI for public critique.

:nonono::CoW:

So for Personal Combat (which I consider the #1 priority on the list of topics), I've asked for the five nominees, got them, contacted them, had two responses, and sent them the existing RED errata (aka, the Marc only material) for them to check for wording, completeness, common sense, etc. Then I'll review it with Marc, and he'll bang out his fixes, the secret cabal will review, then the nominees, and then I'll ask for permission to leak it here.

Other than the leak it on COTI part, Marc's agreed to that for Personal Combat, as a test.

Also, Marc is doing much better, for anyone who has deduced that he was going through some medical procedures...

 

[DonM]

What is Liftoff?

Also a good question.

Other than the press release, I really can't say yet. I suppose I can say that this involves 13Mann, myself, and Martin Dougherty... and the OTU. When I can post something about it, I will.

But trust me. I really do believe that Liftoff is the start of something big. And I don't expect it to be limited to Mongoose Traveller. Rob has pointed out before that Mongoose and T5 really are directly related, and they are. I think we'll see that in elements of Liftoff.

And if you haven't gotten your hands on 13Mann's 1115 Marches map or their Robots book for Mongoose Traveller, shame on you.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Ah-ha!

It's broken, and you're going to defend it to the end, eh?

The reason people buy games is to pay people to do the work of creating the game's universe for them, whether that be mechanically with game systems or with background material. Otherwise, we'd just make up our own games from scratch.

You don't think the game designer, from whom we purchase the stuff, has an obligation to create fair, logical rules?

If one Traveller game book gave you an autorifle that did 2D damage, and another Traveller book came out with a revolver that did 6D damage with no explanation as to why the damage was so high when compared with the rifle, you'd reject one or the other, right?

Why?

Because it's not logical.

The Spectacular Success Rule in T5 is not logical.

There are other ways to introduce the concept of Spectacular Success that are logical.

Therefore, I've got an issue with it. (And, so should you!


When I put my money into these games, I expect that the game designer has put the work into looking at the implications of his own rules. I expect the rules to make sense. I expect them to be logical.

I, yes, I like "heroic" rules as much as I like "simulationist" rules, as long as those rules are logical and do not blow my suspension of disbelief.

See, there is the problem, you see it as broken. Me ,I just don't see as a big deal nor broken, just very player friendly which I am cool with. I may get to play someday, that reminds me, jots down "Remember to buy a blindfold!"

As to your 6D revolver, I would/do assume it has some sort of exploding rocket ammo. Problem solved. It is also fiendishly hard to find that ammo. :devil:

 

[yamsi3467]

This is a good question.

What Marc and I have discussed at this point is a corrected printing, available at a reduced price to everyone who bought T5 original.

BEFORE that, I have heavily suggested some serious reviews, and the way Marc is handling Personal Combat is a test of "Don's Proposal".

Basically, my proposal is to take the core chapters that are required to run a game (ie, not the 'makers), find the most dedicated critics, have them review the existing errata for completeness (that's what I've send out already to two of the five nominees for combat), then I'll sit with Marc and he'll bang out all the fixes and review it for coherence, then Rob/Don/"the secret cabal" will review it, then the five nominees for that topic will review it, and then I hope to leak it onto COTI for public critique.

:nonono::CoW:

So for Personal Combat (which I consider the #1 priority on the list of topics), I've asked for the five nominees, got them, contacted them, had two responses, and sent them the existing RED errata (aka, the Marc only material) for them to check for wording, completeness, common sense, etc. Then I'll review it with Marc, and he'll bang out his fixes, the secret cabal will review, then the nominees, and then I'll ask for permission to leak it here.

Other than the leak it on COTI part, Marc's agreed to that for Personal Combat, as a test.

Also, Marc is doing much better, for anyone who has deduced that he was going through some medical procedures...

Don,

I have to ask in regards to the Beta Testers about a corrected printing. We received our T5 core rules CD-ROM for being betas. How would the reduced price thing work for that? Hope this doesn't open a Pandora's Box.

Yamsi

 

[Supplement Four]

See, there is the problem, you see it as broken. Me ,I just don't see as a big deal nor broken, just very player friendly which I am cool with. I may get to play someday, that reminds me, jots down "Remember to buy a blindfold!"

Would you have a problem if you were running a game, and as the scenario played out, there are two PCs in two cells. Both PCs have the same stat and escape skill (whatever skill is being used), so that they normally would have the same chance at opening their cell doors.. But, in this situation, one PC has his hands tied behind his back.

As Ref, you dutifully make the task for that tied up PC harder, but unknowing to you, the math works out so that you've actually made it easier for him to open his cell door than the other guy who has the exact same problem but has both of his hands free to work on the door. And, he can see what he's doing.



With the SS rule the way it stands, situations like this WILL pop up in the game.

Do you want game rules that allow such non-logical outcomes?

 

[David Johansen]

If you start this thread, I give you my word of honor I won't come in and cheerlead. Seriously, I am more curious to see what things the "hater" crowd likes about T5.

EDIT: I may come and ask questions though.

In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war

 

[nats]

I just wanted to say it makes me very sad every time I hear how lousy Traveller 5 is, I was really hoping it would combine the best bits of Mongoose and Classic Traveller and take Traveller into the future with new adventures, new wonderful illustrations, some great new ships and corrected deckplans of the old favourites. But its just been a bitter disappointment. What a flipping shame.

 

[mike wightman]

Marc had every edition of Traveler aside from GT and MgT to cherry pick from.

He could have tweaked the MT task system, used the T4 combat system, used HG2 as the basis for vehicle and ship building and still added all the new stuff - makers, sophonts, senses, system design, technology explanations etc.

What you would have is a proven gaming system that wouldn't require another year to get right, and it would be fully compatible with MgT.

 

[aramis]

Marc had every edition of Traveler aside from GT and MgT to cherry pick from.

He could have tweaked the MT task system, used the T4 combat system, used HG2 as the basis for vehicle and ship building and still added all the new stuff - makers, sophonts, senses, system design, technology explanations etc.

What you would have is a proven gaming system that wouldn't require another year to get right, and it would be fully compatible with MgT.

No, it wouldn't have been - because MgT doesn't build off of HG, doesn't use the MT Task system, doesn't have the same skill list (nor even a particularly similar one) as any other edition (including current T5).

Also, the MT task system works best with 1.4-2 skills per term; the T4/T5 1.1-1.5 per year is simply too much for a 2d6 mechanic, unless one goes the 2300 route of skill points not equalling skill level directly.

T5's design is driven by certain of Marc's desires that are incompatible with certain fan-favorite components.