Zhodani in your TU?
- Thread starter Rhialto the Marvelous
- Start date
Since the original question was how we view the Zhodani, not how they're viewed in cannon - I offer the following viewpoint:
IMTU - NOT in cannon - Psi is limited in ways that impact my view of how Zhodani society would function.
IMTU Psi does not allow total mind-possession of sophants or a magical remake of a personality. False memories can be planted, temporary mental illusions fostered (No, the light's green not red - what are ya' color blind?) and personality quirks can be enhanced or suppressed by a strong and skillful telepath. However, this is a far cry from an immediate or even reliable cure for all "deviant" personnalities. Re-education of a deviant personnality takes a lot of time, skill and effort. Minor quirks simply aren't worth the effort.
There is also a special talent of "Psi Blocker". A psi blocker is in fact a psionically active sophant, but the nature of the talent makes the individual seem to be an "anti-psi". Sophants with the "psi blocker" talent project a "psi" interferrence field around themselves which inhibits the functioning of psi powers in their vicinity (1 to 6 meter radius). Within the interferrance zone, the Psi rating of an active Psi is effectively reduced by the Psi rating of the blocker for all activities other than blocking. The interferrence zones of multiple psi blockers have a cumulative effect. Some Psi blockers can control the talent by switching it on and off at will, while others either broadcast continuously or only when triggered by stress.
The results?
1) Key Zhodani virtues are:
- Conformity
- Public Contentment (not personal happiness)
- Order
- Service to the Society (defined by nobles)
Being unhappy does not incur the wrath of the state. Disturbing the public contentment does.
2) Zho propoganda says they're a perfect society with everyone happy and content; but in reality there's not near enough Psi influence for this to happen because the "doctoring" process itself is resource intensive and far from perfect. Crime can and does exist - but not to the degree it does in other human societies.
3) Within the Zhodani society many people from all of the social classes believe in the Zhodani ideal of "Happiness through Psionics." However, most recognize that they are working to achieve this ideal and that the actual society is not yet there.
4) Not all Psi abilities are treated equally. Nearly all nobles are strong telepaths - but not all telepaths are nobles. Other psi talents are considered to be the "weaker talents". Intendants include potential nobles with strong telepathic ability but limited experience, weak telepaths, and those with only the "weaker" psi talents. Proles are either very weak psi or psi inactive for the most part. Individuals with a special talent of "psi blocker" are treated similar to psionically trained personnel in the 3I - mostly persecuted, sometimes exploited by government monopoly - never discussed openly.
5) In some places/times IMTU - Zhodani society is Orwellian to the extreme and very unspirited if not unhappy. People not only disappear for "re-eductation" regularly, but people also just "disappear" regularly. Afterall, it takes much less of the limited Psi resources to inplace the false memory of a dissidents death by natural causes in a few key witnesses than to actually rewire the dissident to be a useful puppet.
In the Orewellian areas, most proles, many intendants and some nobles have a terrible emptiness that they can not explain caused by one too many false memories being put in place. Typically, they try to fill this void trough service to the state - thus still being useful to the puppet masters and not disappearing from society. When these Orwellian pockets (or larger depending on time/location) are finally countered by the "noble" Zhodani - their existence is swept under the rug so as not to disturb the public.
6) Life on a world freshly conquered by the Zhodani would be very unplesant in most cases, providing plenty of fuel for the 3I propoganda machine.
IMTU - NOT in cannon - Psi is limited in ways that impact my view of how Zhodani society would function.
IMTU Psi does not allow total mind-possession of sophants or a magical remake of a personality. False memories can be planted, temporary mental illusions fostered (No, the light's green not red - what are ya' color blind?) and personality quirks can be enhanced or suppressed by a strong and skillful telepath. However, this is a far cry from an immediate or even reliable cure for all "deviant" personnalities. Re-education of a deviant personnality takes a lot of time, skill and effort. Minor quirks simply aren't worth the effort.
There is also a special talent of "Psi Blocker". A psi blocker is in fact a psionically active sophant, but the nature of the talent makes the individual seem to be an "anti-psi". Sophants with the "psi blocker" talent project a "psi" interferrence field around themselves which inhibits the functioning of psi powers in their vicinity (1 to 6 meter radius). Within the interferrance zone, the Psi rating of an active Psi is effectively reduced by the Psi rating of the blocker for all activities other than blocking. The interferrence zones of multiple psi blockers have a cumulative effect. Some Psi blockers can control the talent by switching it on and off at will, while others either broadcast continuously or only when triggered by stress.
The results?
1) Key Zhodani virtues are:
- Conformity
- Public Contentment (not personal happiness)
- Order
- Service to the Society (defined by nobles)
Being unhappy does not incur the wrath of the state. Disturbing the public contentment does.
2) Zho propoganda says they're a perfect society with everyone happy and content; but in reality there's not near enough Psi influence for this to happen because the "doctoring" process itself is resource intensive and far from perfect. Crime can and does exist - but not to the degree it does in other human societies.
3) Within the Zhodani society many people from all of the social classes believe in the Zhodani ideal of "Happiness through Psionics." However, most recognize that they are working to achieve this ideal and that the actual society is not yet there.
4) Not all Psi abilities are treated equally. Nearly all nobles are strong telepaths - but not all telepaths are nobles. Other psi talents are considered to be the "weaker talents". Intendants include potential nobles with strong telepathic ability but limited experience, weak telepaths, and those with only the "weaker" psi talents. Proles are either very weak psi or psi inactive for the most part. Individuals with a special talent of "psi blocker" are treated similar to psionically trained personnel in the 3I - mostly persecuted, sometimes exploited by government monopoly - never discussed openly.
5) In some places/times IMTU - Zhodani society is Orwellian to the extreme and very unspirited if not unhappy. People not only disappear for "re-eductation" regularly, but people also just "disappear" regularly. Afterall, it takes much less of the limited Psi resources to inplace the false memory of a dissidents death by natural causes in a few key witnesses than to actually rewire the dissident to be a useful puppet.
In the Orewellian areas, most proles, many intendants and some nobles have a terrible emptiness that they can not explain caused by one too many false memories being put in place. Typically, they try to fill this void trough service to the state - thus still being useful to the puppet masters and not disappearing from society. When these Orwellian pockets (or larger depending on time/location) are finally countered by the "noble" Zhodani - their existence is swept under the rug so as not to disturb the public.
6) Life on a world freshly conquered by the Zhodani would be very unplesant in most cases, providing plenty of fuel for the 3I propoganda machine.
epicenter00
SOC-13
A small observation about this: Unlike the unrealistic expectations of societies that don't "properly" understand the human mind, I would think that the Zhodani of all people would recognize that trying to make people happy is essentially futile due to the way that the human brain works. People get used to "happy" and it doesn't make them "happy" anymore, then they want more, quickly outstripping any realistic expectations. Aiming for contentment is probably the most they try for.
A part of Zhodani education would probably be being taught to accept and embrace such truths, which people in the 3I would view as "dulling down" the individual.
They'd both be right, of course.
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
no it wouldn't - by definition. they are the ones who decide what "service" is. they are the ones who decide who the "society as a whole" is. there is no disagreement with them - not because it merely isn't allowed, but because it is overturned. they speak, and everyone not merely obeys without question, but believes. by definition, they are the only ones who matter. by definition, they are the only ones who count. by definition, they are the only humans. everyone else is a farmyard animal, a purpose-bred pet, a programmable machine - and no-one serves a programmable machine. they'll serve themselves.
what a head trip that would be. </font>[/QUOTE]Your Zhodani are set up, IMHO, as a truly abhorent state, if they can be called a "state" at all. A "society of overlords" is closer. I can't see such a structure leading to five thousand years of stability if all of the nobility are really on that kind of powertrip, but that's a YTU problem.
Now that we've determined how your Zhodani fundamentally differ from mine, we can move on.
Rhialto the Marvelous
SOC-13
I think part of the reason for the "dictatorship yes/no, contentment yes/no" disagreement is this: GDW gave the Zhodani psionics... but only to a fraction of them, namely the ruling classes.
Hence psionics can be interpreted in two ways: as a means of power by which the rulers dominate those who have barely anything in common with them; or as a source of contentment for all. Oppression or social bond.
But both alternatives don't quite work, it seems to me. As we mentioned, several millennia of oppression without hardly any rebellion (or none at all?) is implausible. But so is to imagine Zhodani society as this frictionless whole. Because, again, the vast majority of people are NOT psionicists... the minds of many are being read by the minds of a few--but not vice versa. Why be content with one-sided transparency?
So... why did GDW decide to go down this route? Probably because of game balance. If all Zhodani are psionicists, their armies would be unbeatable. And now we have to come up with in-game reasons to explain a meta-game decision.
Hence psionics can be interpreted in two ways: as a means of power by which the rulers dominate those who have barely anything in common with them; or as a source of contentment for all. Oppression or social bond.
But both alternatives don't quite work, it seems to me. As we mentioned, several millennia of oppression without hardly any rebellion (or none at all?) is implausible. But so is to imagine Zhodani society as this frictionless whole. Because, again, the vast majority of people are NOT psionicists... the minds of many are being read by the minds of a few--but not vice versa. Why be content with one-sided transparency?
So... why did GDW decide to go down this route? Probably because of game balance. If all Zhodani are psionicists, their armies would be unbeatable. And now we have to come up with in-game reasons to explain a meta-game decision.
The Zhodani Consulate is most definitely not a Dictatorship (unlike the Imperium, which arguably is one.) Simple reason: No dictator. The Zhodani system of government is far more pluralistic than the Imperial one. (This is actually true for all other interstellar states except the 2000 Worlds, which is the only one even more autocratic than the Imperium.)
"Aristocratic republic" would be a much more appropriate term for the Zhodani Consulate.
Because the ZC isn't a democracy either. It is quite obvious that the ruling class, due to its own traditions and deeply imprinted self-impression, sees itself as fit to rule the masses (at least on an interstellar level - as AM4 makes clear, local governments can include Proles.)
And I think the reason for this is that Zhodani society was supposed to be a variation of the Imperial-type feudal system.
P.S.: My sources for all my views on Zhodani are CT/MT canon materials. T20 and GT are not considered (I own some material, but never played.)
Rhialto the Marvelous
SOC-13
My point is not about political systems. It's not about dictatorship (or oligarchy, or whatever) versus democracy, it's about oppression versus contentment.
Given the uneventful internal history of the Consulate, the proles can't be called oppressed, for they would surely have rebelled at some point. Ergo, by and large they don't hate their rulers. On the other hand, given the fact the proles aren't psionicists, there's no reason for them to be content for psionics-related reasons: why share an ethos based on a mental ability that you yourself do not possess?
Given the uneventful internal history of the Consulate, the proles can't be called oppressed, for they would surely have rebelled at some point. Ergo, by and large they don't hate their rulers. On the other hand, given the fact the proles aren't psionicists, there's no reason for them to be content for psionics-related reasons: why share an ethos based on a mental ability that you yourself do not possess?
The Zhodani ethos, if it can so be called, is not really based on psionics. Indeed, as I mentioned earlier, the underlying principles of Zhodani society are not too different from those of certain Terran philosophies.
Psionics (actually, just telepathy) is merely an exceptionally important tool to put those principles into practice. It provides an extremely advanced understanding of human psychology and a method to actually check the results.
Psionics (actually, just telepathy) is merely an exceptionally important tool to put those principles into practice. It provides an extremely advanced understanding of human psychology and a method to actually check the results.
The Zhodani ethos, if it can so be called, is not really based on psionics. Indeed, as I mentioned earlier, the underlying principles of Zhodani society are not too different from those of certain Terran philosophies.
Psionics (actually, just telepathy) is merely an exceptionally important tool to put those principles into practice. It provides an extremely advanced understanding of human psychology and a method to actually check the results.
Psionics (actually, just telepathy) is merely an exceptionally important tool to put those principles into practice. It provides an extremely advanced understanding of human psychology and a method to actually check the results.
epicenter00
SOC-13
Perhaps they don't feel strongly enough about their rulers to rebel. It can be argued that a people are always oppressed at some level, but if they feel they cannot change things they will not rebel. That doesn't mean they have to like their rulers. Perhaps the Tavrchedl explain such feelings are natural and not unhealthy or terrible...
Chances are in the Consulate, they do like their rulers. But perhaps they don't. Perhaps if you were to talk to someone in the Consulate they would tell you something like:
"A Psionic Republic is the worst possible form of government - except for any other form."
"A Psionic Republic is not superior to other forms of governance, but it is more just."
Why not? Because any government you can't participate in is not worthy of your trust? That history is a long struggle between the common people and tyrants would horde power for themselves?
The mistrust of government/authority is not an absolutely natural thing. A people do not necessarily have to distrust their government. In the United States, we're taught to poo-poo upon on the concept of trusting your government. It's actually popular and "cool" to have a certain (hopefully relaxed) contempt for the government. Our media and education hammer this home - it's inescapable - an opinion that is presented as fact. We are not to trust our government as it is a haven for the corrupt, the incompetent, and controlled overtly and covertly by partisans of views, religions, and lifestyles we don't share.
At the same time, in the US, we're taught to dislike tradition. Tradition is seen as staid, undesirable, a thing that stogy old people cling to in their old age. Young people and those who have the misfortune of being older than 30 but are blessed with a young at heart who are smart and modern have no need for tradition.
None of these things have to be the Zhodani Consulate.
If proles believe that the Consulate government controls psionics for the benefit of the public at large, why would you mistrust the government? If tradition is valued (and I'm guessing it would be amongst the Zhodani), then it could be said that the government that has lasted as long as the Zhodani Consulate is probably the best government the human race has ever had, so why change it?
Another factor that I think is often overlooked are the Zhodani Intendants. They're the psions who are strong enough to be trained, but aren't nobility. It's my view this class is quite large, and actually provide the most visible face of the Consulate. These boys and girls make up the supervisors and middle management of Zhodani society. They're the bulk of the Tavrchedl who spend their days monitoring the proles and each other. They probably outnumber the nobles hundreds of times over.
IMTU, a special class of the Tavrchedl Intendants actually watch the nobility. While they think of themselves as a sort of secret society, the nobility are actually aware of them, and tolerate/encourage their activities as a sort of 'safety valve' for the Intendants.
Rhialto the Marvelous
SOC-13
Just telepathy? The ability to look into the depths of another person's mind is merely an instrument to implement a worldview as opposed to being the keystone of one? That's simply not plausible.
the people who originally made those statements had seen, lived in, and/or dealt with other kinds of governments, and spoke from experience and personal evaluation. their opinions were their own. a typical zhodani prole will have no such knowledge or experience, and any opinion he expresses regarding them (or anything else) likely is not his own.
I think the term "just telepathy" was meant to point out that other talents (like telekenisis) are not the stuff that forms the corenerstone of society, and were not meant to devalue telepathy.
No Zhodani sleeps better at night knowing that government 'spoon benders' are standing watch over things to prevent crisis.
No Zhodani sleeps better at night knowing that government 'spoon benders' are standing watch over things to prevent crisis.
@ Rhialto
Is writing the keystone of our worldview? Money? Will computers be?
Again, it would be very helpful if you could tell us, using a non-Zhodani example as a template, what exactly it is you are looking for.
@ flykiller
Actually, Zhodani have many diverse forms of government on the local level, which can also include Proles in the political process. So, a Prole is not necessarily the naive drone some people assume him/her to be.
@ atpollard
Exactly.
Is writing the keystone of our worldview? Money? Will computers be?
Again, it would be very helpful if you could tell us, using a non-Zhodani example as a template, what exactly it is you are looking for.
@ flykiller
Actually, Zhodani have many diverse forms of government on the local level, which can also include Proles in the political process. So, a Prole is not necessarily the naive drone some people assume him/her to be.
@ atpollard
Exactly.
and it's all trumped by psionics and thought police who override any law or process or result or thought with which they disagree.
naive? it's not that they're naive, it's that they can be controlled. controlled absolutely, without recourse, without answer, without exception, without limit, by those who answer to nothing but themselves.
"we're from the consulate, and we're here to help you. don't worry, be happy. now."
None. As I wrote, telepathy provides a tool for psychology. You have unmatched diagnosis abilities and an extremely advanced understanding of the human psyche as well as a method to check exactly which methods are working. You don't have methods to mold human minds however you like to.
@ flykiller
These assertions are not really supported by canon materials (CT/MT) about the Zhodani.
None. As I wrote, telepathy provides a tool for psychology. You have unmatched diagnosis abilities and an extremely advanced understanding of the human psyche as well as a method to check exactly which methods are working. You don't have methods to mold human minds however you like to.
@ flykiller
These assertions are not really supported by canon materials (CT/MT) about the Zhodani. </font>[/QUOTE]Two questions:
1) How many telepaths does it take (sounds like a tag line
) to police the society for ensuring that the psych folks keep everyone happy?2) Who polices the telepaths?
Gee flykiller, why do I get the feeling that you had a REALLY bad experience fighting the Zho's during the Fifth Frontier War?
Seriously, I have to go with atpollard and Tobias on this one. I just don't see anything in the Traveller cannon that suggests the kind of psionic mind control you are suggesting is even possible, let alone practiced by the Zhodani.
Nor do I agree that just because one part of society has a distinct advantage/capability over another part of society, that they will automatically use that advantage to oppress their less endowed brethren.
Zhodani nobles, and to a lesser extent the intendants, enjoy a position of prestige and privilege within their society. To maintain such a position unchallenged for almost 8,000 years, there has to be a high level of reciprocity; the psionic classes have to give back to the proles as much or more than they receive. Otherwise all their efforts would be directed at suppressing prole discontent, and it is clear from the sources (AM 4) that this is not the case.
As I see it, the Nobles make two distinct contributions to society. First, they are able to provide a level of justice unknown in non-psionic societies. Through the use of telepathy, clairvoyance and possibly other psionic skills, they are able to ensure that the truth really comes out in all cases. No guilty person gets away free, nobody is falsely condemned. The value of this to society is hard to over state.
Secondly, as Tobias has pointed out, telepathy has led to an unmatched understanding of psychology. The value here is not just in diagnosing and treating mental disorders, but also in helping people to achieve their highest potential. This ‘self-actualizing’ aspect of Zhodani society is the true source of its strength and stability.
As Aristotle pointed out so long ago, happiness comes from striving to the best of ones ability, to achieve some valued goal, in a life that affords it scope. Happiness is not a state. Happiness is what happens when one is actively engaged in doing what that individual really values, be it raising ones kids, competing in a race, writing a book, designing buildings, or whatever. For each individual it is different. Challenges to achieving the goal are all right, as long as achievement is not unfairly blocked.
By helping people (of all classes) to find their own path (through advanced psychological techniques and understanding, and occasionally through telepathic examination) and by encouraging them with an ethic of ambition, the Zhodani ensure a populace that is generally happy and productive. And a happy population leads to a stable society and government. Everyone has a vested interest in keeping it stable. Mind control and indoctrination is totally unnecessary. The Tavrchedl’ are there to help the suffering, not oppress the weak.
In light of this I would answer SteveB’s questions:
That’s my take on it anyway.
Seriously, I have to go with atpollard and Tobias on this one. I just don't see anything in the Traveller cannon that suggests the kind of psionic mind control you are suggesting is even possible, let alone practiced by the Zhodani.
Nor do I agree that just because one part of society has a distinct advantage/capability over another part of society, that they will automatically use that advantage to oppress their less endowed brethren.
Zhodani nobles, and to a lesser extent the intendants, enjoy a position of prestige and privilege within their society. To maintain such a position unchallenged for almost 8,000 years, there has to be a high level of reciprocity; the psionic classes have to give back to the proles as much or more than they receive. Otherwise all their efforts would be directed at suppressing prole discontent, and it is clear from the sources (AM 4) that this is not the case.
As I see it, the Nobles make two distinct contributions to society. First, they are able to provide a level of justice unknown in non-psionic societies. Through the use of telepathy, clairvoyance and possibly other psionic skills, they are able to ensure that the truth really comes out in all cases. No guilty person gets away free, nobody is falsely condemned. The value of this to society is hard to over state.
Secondly, as Tobias has pointed out, telepathy has led to an unmatched understanding of psychology. The value here is not just in diagnosing and treating mental disorders, but also in helping people to achieve their highest potential. This ‘self-actualizing’ aspect of Zhodani society is the true source of its strength and stability.
As Aristotle pointed out so long ago, happiness comes from striving to the best of ones ability, to achieve some valued goal, in a life that affords it scope. Happiness is not a state. Happiness is what happens when one is actively engaged in doing what that individual really values, be it raising ones kids, competing in a race, writing a book, designing buildings, or whatever. For each individual it is different. Challenges to achieving the goal are all right, as long as achievement is not unfairly blocked.
By helping people (of all classes) to find their own path (through advanced psychological techniques and understanding, and occasionally through telepathic examination) and by encouraging them with an ethic of ambition, the Zhodani ensure a populace that is generally happy and productive. And a happy population leads to a stable society and government. Everyone has a vested interest in keeping it stable. Mind control and indoctrination is totally unnecessary. The Tavrchedl’ are there to help the suffering, not oppress the weak.
In light of this I would answer SteveB’s questions:
Not many. Probably no more than our modern western metropolitan police forces.
Other telepaths, appointed by the Consulate. Same as the civilian oversight of our police and military forces. Nobody wants a rouge telepath messing with the proles!
That’s my take on it anyway.
