Zhodani in your TU?

[flykiller]

Gee flykiller, why do I get the feeling that you had a REALLY bad experience fighting the Zho's during the Fifth Frontier War?

I'm all better now. really.

I just don't see anything in the Traveller cannon that suggests the kind of psionic mind control you are suggesting is even possible, let alone practiced by the Zhodani.

adventure 6, expedition to zhodane, the "personality overlay machine". and that was an imperial device, mind you, not even a zhodani machine. more than that, I see here and elsewhere an unwavering unyielding insistence that the zhodani rulers take an interest in the "happiness" of their subjects - surely this interest is accompanied by effective mental action and not just physical action alone.

Nor do I agree that just because one part of society has a distinct advantage/capability over another part of society, that they will automatically use that advantage to oppress their less endowed brethren.

history is my guide. one may not agree with it, but there it is.

To maintain such a position unchallenged for almost 8,000 years ....

that's my whole point. there is no-one to challenge them. anyone who contradicts them is simply overwritten like a hard drive. anyone who challenges them is erased like a file. "we've been unchallenged for 8000 years ...." is just another way of saying, "... and we never will be."

canon

I know canon says thus and thus and thus, but the thuses don't always fit together. one may decree "zhodani have psionics, thus", and also decree "the consulate nobles are civic-minded and the proles independently happy of their own accord, thus", but it doesn't follow, and it's not plausible.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by flykiller:
that's my whole point. there is no-one to challenge them. anyone who contradicts them is simply overwritten like a hard drive. anyone who challenges them is erased like a file.

Rememeber that such level of repression is likely to be a major obstacle to creativity, and, most likely, to productivity as well. Unlike the Vilani, the Zhodani are a society in constant technological progress, a society interested in science and exploration - a society which would be greatly hampered by having a majority of brainwashed drones in it.

Hence I've suggested the idea of co-optation rather than complete psionic brainwahing; the Thought Police will not wipe out critical ideas about Zhodani society, but rather help channel them towards "acceptable" avenues. A prole who'd like to rebel against the ills of zodani society would be educated to work on improving society from within the system - but his criticism won't be totally erased. This would allow both progress and the stability of the Consulate's rule.

 

[epicenter00]

Originally posted by Nick Nova:
Secondly, as Tobias has pointed out, telepathy has led to an unmatched understanding of psychology. The value here is not just in diagnosing and treating mental disorders, but also in helping people to achieve their highest potential. This ‘self-actualizing’ aspect of Zhodani society is the true source of its strength and stability.

This is actually really important, I think, and one of the parts of the whole 'you can't really imagine what it must be to be Zhodani' things.

It's entirely possible with their advanced knowledge of psionics that they've had thousands of years to practice the Zhodani are basically as advanced in psychology as the TI would be in diagnosing physical diseases, including something that probably sends a shiver up most people's spines - that the Zhodani probably have a definition of a what is an "accepted normal" mind, and people don't argue what 'normal' is anymore than two doctors would argue, "Hey, is that a broken bone?"

To really extrapolate out what the Zhodani would "really" be like probably would require a lot of dedication and thought which most "canon" writers of Traveller haven't done. I still maintain they might be genetically human, but to us in the 21st century, their thoughts would be utterly alien to us. Even if they could speak a language we could understand, I am not certain we could really have meaningful communication with them beyond transmission of basic concepts without spending years learning them (or more likely them learning us) - the values and mindset of the Zhodani would be utterly alien to us.

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
Rememeber that such level of repression is likely to be a major obstacle to creativity, and, most likely, to productivity as well.

Well, the Zhodani make the Vilani look aggressive in their tech progression; despite no known Long Night equivalent and starting at about the same time as the Vilani, they're mildly behind technologically.

I don't think that's a direct function of telepathy, though. I think the Zhodani value social stability more than individuality and creativity.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Anthony:
Well, the Zhodani make the Vilani look aggressive in their tech progression; despite no known Long Night equivalent and starting at about the same time as the Vilani, they're mildly behind technologically.

I don't think that's a direct function of telepathy, though. I think the Zhodani value social stability more than individuality and creativity.

The Zhodani had much more frontiers to explore than either the Vilani or the Imperium or even the Solomani - they had the Human mind as the main frontier to explore, and have gained much progress in that direction as well. So, with many more fields available to research, they've reached a comparative level of technology with the Imperium in the "conventional" field - but in the same time they've fully developed the field of psionics.

Ofcourse, that said, they still suffer from the general technological conservativism common to most OTU societies - still no cybernetics, no serious biotech, almost no AIs (warbots aren't THAT smart).

 

[Tobias]

Originally posted by Anthony:
Well, the Zhodani make the Vilani look aggressive in their tech progression; despite no known Long Night equivalent and starting at about the same time as the Vilani, they're mildly behind technologically.

"The same time"? Close. 2000 years off, but... close. (First Vilani space exploration in -10011, first Zhodani space exploration in -7980.)
As for a Long Night equivalent, the Viepchakl Plague and the resulting Dark Age lasted at least as long as the LN and resulted in a more severe technological setback. So, no cigar.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Originally posted by Anthony:
Well, the Zhodani make the Vilani look aggressive in their tech progression; despite no known Long Night equivalent and starting at about the same time as the Vilani, they're mildly behind technologically.

I don't think that's a direct function of telepathy, though. I think the Zhodani value social stability more than individuality and creativity.

That's the downside of their society. I've joked in the past about how dull Zho art is, but it's true - all the greatest artists and inventors are a little odd, if not downright mad, but these people can't exist there.

Back to oppression/rebellion - this simply doesn't happen. No prole would dream of rebelling, mostly because they have no reason to, but also because rebellion is culturally despised - only a sick mind would consider it, and if you're sick you go to the doctor and get cured. Equally, no noble would abuse his position because that's even more unspeakable, plus his peers would stop him if he tried. These things are as abhorrent to them as paedophilia is to us.

 

[atpollard]

Would Van Gough have been less creative if his depression had been treated? Certainly YES if we drugged him into a stupor like many modern treatments, but Picasso managed to be creative without resorting to self mutilation. Would he have had a chance to be creative for a far longer period if the root defect had been cured?

Clearly the Zho advance more slowly in science, but this could simply reflect a cultural conservatism - slow and steady change, nothing too disruptive since rapid change causes social distress (ask former textile workers in the southeastern USA - double digit unemployment and permanent factory closings).

Ben Franklin had naked tea parties in his back yard and Thomas Edison took naps in his roll top desk, would the Zho have found them eccentric but basicly healthy or would they have 'cured' them right out of their amazing contributions to science and technology?

 

[Tobias]

Originally posted by atpollard:
Clearly the Zho advance more slowly in science,

Not compared to the Vilani, nor much if compared to, for example, the Hivers.

 

[atpollard]

500+ years per TL seems slow by 21st century Earth standards. At least the Imperium has the excuse that they keep falling and need to start over (not a very stable culture is it).

In the 1970s, Marc predicted that WE would have FTL travel by NOW! Traveller Earth leaves the real Earth in the dust. There isn't even time to build a fleet before it is TL obsolete.

 

[Tobias]

Yes, but Terra is an anomaly by TU tech advancement standards. No interstellar civilization has ever independently advanced at an even remotely comparable pace.