High Tech Low Tech Items

[Ishmael]

[/QUOTE] Why wouldn't they have electricity? [/QUOTE]

because they haven't strung miles of high tension lines yet?
because they haven't mined and refined the copper or aluminum for wires ( unless they have wireless power transmission )
and they haven't imported that stuff yet?

because they don't have blenders and lava lamps yet to make getting all this stuff important enough to spend money on.

I'd say imported generators hooked to windmills or water wheels for on site power

 

[Captain Midnight]

More clarification. I envision a company (mega-corp or slightly smaller obtaining rights to colonize a system in some spacial backwater. No known sentient beings. Possibility of illegal activity by persons unknown that leads to small scale combat like high tech rustlers or poachers. These would be the only human adversaries. Others would possibly be animals, or the world itself. Maybe like hurricanes etc.

If the company has obtained the rights to establish a colony, they've got to have a reason to want to do so. Otherwise, you might as well have a weenie roast outside the company HQ with a bonfire made of thousand-credit notes; at least there would be some tasty food to come out of the monumental waste of money. You're the GM, so it's up to you to come up with a plausible reason.

If there's a reason the company wants to establish a colony, then they'll provide equipment and they'll be checking back in on a regular basis, probably to pick up the collected raw materials or whatever else the colony can produce. They'll be willing to invest some money on the front end if it improves their return on the initial investment; for example, if the only way the colonists can bring mined ore to the pickup site is by lugging it on their backs, they won't be able to bring very much in. The company can improve their collected amount dramatically by providing ore trucks (or barges, or G-carriers), and that comparatively small additional investment will produce a tremendous return. They won't necessarily spend a lot on creature comforts, so the ore haulers will probably be pretty starkly functional (unless the colonist miners do some customizing on their own), but the company will be very interested in making sure that every bit of ore production can be transferred to the pickup point.

The company also has an obvious interest in making sure that the ore haulers can be repaired if something goes wrong. That has certain implications; there will be technical staff on hand, and repair facilities that can handle foreseeable damage to their equipment. The workers will also need some degree of support, such as medical resources, environmental needs, and food supply of some sort. If you don't provide your workers with those things, pretty soon you're out of workers.

As far as electricity goes, no infrastructure built for it yet. Possibilty of some small hydro-electric plants or even using a near worn out space ship near a water supply as a power generating station. Have not fully decided those details yet.

Think through the process of creating a colony. Would the company load up a bunch of workers on a ship, dump them on a bare stretch of bedrock and say, "Get to work, you slackers"?? Unlikely, if they're ever expecting any results. It's far more likely that they'll send in a group that looks an awful lot like what the US Air Force calls a "contingency response group", which prepares a basic facility for air operations. They'll provide housing for personnel, communications infrastructure, and all the things you have to have to turn a dinky little airfield into someplace that a large collection of sophisticated combat aircraft can operate from. Yes, that's going to be pricey, but if you try to set up these operations on the cheap, you cost yourself an awful lot of lost productivity while your people are trying to get things together, and when they don't have the equipment to do their jobs. It isn't necessary for local staff to be able to build all the equipment used at the facility, but they'll certainly have the equipment needed to keep work going in case of an equipment failure; if one truck breaking down is going to shut down an entire mining operation for six months, only a fool will fail to have some spare trucks around. Only a bigger fool will continue to work for such a fool, too.

It sounds like you were more interested in something like "what would happen if you introduced some stellar-level materials to a TL4 civilization", and that isn't going to be a plausible result from the situation you're talking about here. You have to explain why someone decided to form a colony, why people went to the colony, and why local technology wouldn't improve to some degree. There are certainly answers to each of these questions that are filled with roleplaying possibilities, and even ones that could plausibly give you a TL4 civilization, but they won't have anything to do with "someone thought this was the most efficient use of their resources".

 

[JAFARR]

More clarifications: 1) It's a book plot not necessarily based in Traveller, but Traveller gives me some basis to compare tech levels. 2) Think along the lines of an interstellar Hudson Bay company.

The company will primarily focus on setting up a buying station for cattle or the native equivalent at first. The buying station will include processing facilities and may well have electricity and some other more modern facilities. To continue with the old western theme, those recruited to be out on the range away from the small area of civilization will not have these things.

The company will recruit colonists from worlds with similar technology. Some may be "indentured" to the company ie the company outfits and equips them and they must repay the company in some mutually agreeable manner. Otherwise, the company may license them at their own expense to live/work on the world.

The company intends to expand into farming also, but expects to initally make it's profits from selling meat to nearby non-agraian worlds. As the world has not been subject to more than a once over lightly survey or two, there may also be mineral wealth to be discovered.

At the start of the story there has been some development of a small outpost on a high plains area of the largest continent. A few small herds of imported cattle have been estabilished and now there is a push to extend the area under development as grazing lands. The outpost is about the equivalent of a class E starport. Think about how the American west and the Ausrtialian Outback were developed here on Earth.

 

[LordVince]

Water pumps.
Water pumps powered by those cute little windmills -- but both items made out of materials that will never rust or wear out. How else ya gonna water all them Beefaloes?

So, you're going for a "Western" feel, huh? Well, in the "Old West", most ranchers out on the Range pushed back the dark of night with either candles or kerosene lamps. Are you prepared to introduce an entire petrochemical infrastructure, just to get kerosene?

Perhaps you'd consider an LED lantern with a handcrank generator in it's base. Made of advanced plastics it could "last forever" -- one of your qualifications -- it's portable, and it's simple. Someone from a TL4 society knows how to flick a switch, and how to turn the crank, when the light goes out.

Horses -- or draft animals -- over fuelled/powered vehicles has been adressed, therefore anything "horsedrawn" could be manufactured from lightweight, long-life, neer-indestructible composits. Instead of a wooden buckboard, it's plastic.

A horsedrawn plow, made from titanium. Screw steel, steel rusts. Same goes for a horsedrawn harvester -- make it from something that, when it hits a rock, the ROCK breaks, not the tool.

A "high-tech", idiot-proof brick-making machine. Just shovel dirt in one end, and bricks come rolling out the other (the portable fusion generator, hidden inside, only needs to be serviced once every 5 years).

Ditto a fusion-powered Locomotive. "Old fashioned" Steam Locomotives -- even those manufactured from high-tech, long-life materials -- still need lubricants, seals, gaskets, spare parts, and FUEL. Again, are you prepared to put a Fuels Production infrastructure into this colony?

If the purpose of this Colony is Cattle Ranching, then at least once per year, a really big ship is gonna swing by the planet and spend a couple of days loading up frozen beef carcasses. If the Home Office can't send a handful of Fusion Techs around ONCE A YEAR, then the Ranchers should find somebody else to buy their beef.

Commonly available Electricity isn't the issue to consider, it's how it's applied. If the Home Office builds a 1,000 Mw Fusion Powerplant at the city of First Landing, then uses that wonderful handwave technology of "Broadcast Power" to send the product of the reactor out to the Cowboys.
What does this do? Well, when you presss a button on the lamp, it turns on. Press the button again, it turns off. It means the Ranchouse can have an "Icebox" that doesn't, actually, need "Ice". Instead, the "Icebox" MAKES Ice ^_^ Same thing for Radios -- you presss a button and talk. Even a TL4 Bumpkin can do that. Does this mean the whole planet has interconnectivity? Heck no! It means there is a long-range radio at the Ranchouse that can reach The City, and all the Cowboys have short-range comms that can only reach the Bunkhouse...if the weather is good...and he remembered to charge the battery last night...

The Ranchers then get charged a flat fee for their power use -- a HEFTY fee. This helps keep the Ranchers profit margins low, so that the Home Office can stay in charge.

Fuel. It all boils down to Fuel, not "power". Is fire the only means of illumination/heating/cooking? How are they getting that fire? Burning wood? Burning rocks? Burning liquids? Burning gasses?

Is the Colony set up so that each ranch is supposed to be a COMPLETELY self-sufficient entity, or is the Home Office keeping things centralized in The City? There could be a massive waste treatment plant in The City, which then turns around and send filtered Methane back out to the Ranches for Light/Heat/Cooking. And remember that Methane is lighter-than-air -- the Union Army, during the American War Between The States used both Methane and Propane as the gas to lift their Observation Balloons, so an "Old West" Dirigible isn't that far fetched -- it won't lift much Beef, but it could be used as a Rapid Response vehicle for Emergency Services, like Medical Airlift... or Anti-Rustler patrols ("Boss! Boss! Lookit, it's the Rev'noor Blimp! Let's skeedaddle!")

I mean, what does it matter that there is a big machine in The City where you dump raw materials in one end, and it spits out bullet cartridges from the other? You're gonna give the Cowboys guns & bullets anyway, and they'll still buy'em at the General Store in boxes of 100. AND, there's only ONE machine like that on the planet! If it can't meet the needs of the locals, well, that's why Tramp Freighters exist.

So the Cowboy has a flashlight and hemorroid creme in his saddlebags! He's STILL sleeping on the ground, and spending his WHOLE day sitting on the back of a smelly quadruped, under the hot sun, staring at the crap-end of dozens of big food-animals, and worrying that said food-animals might be stolen by similarly miserable dirtbags.

How is that not "authentic" -- just because, after a few days on the trail, he can go to the Bunkhouse, have a hot shower, then sit and watch a burlesque show on the plasmascreen?

Sorry for the rambling prattle -- too many ideas crashing into each other ^_^

 

[Golan2072]

So, you're going for a "Western" feel, huh? Well, in the "Old West", most ranchers out on the Range pushed back the dark of night with either candles or kerosene lamps. Are you prepared to introduce an entire petrochemical infrastructure, just to get kerosene?

Use locally-renewable fuels such as biogas or ethanol instead. Both are very low-tech to produce - especially since lamps or cooking ovens don't require very clean fuel (unlike internal combustion engines) - and could be manufactured and used even by illiterate farmers in the most remote and desolate parts of the third world. The best thing about such renewable fuels is that they require very little infrastructure - a small digester in the ranchhouse for biogas or a local brewery for ethanol - unlike kerosene or other fossil fuels. Biogas could also retain the "gaslight" 1800's feel when replacing coal-gas in urban illumination.

The Ranchers then get charged a flat fee for their power use -- a HEFTY fee. This helps keep the Ranchers profit margins low, so that the Home Office can stay in charge.

This could be a great hook for the political opposition groups (maybe an independence movement?) - with a platform demanding, among other things, the reduction of electricity prices to the production cost - demanding a government of the ranchers, by the ranchers, for the ranchers. This gives the old slogan "power to the people" a whole new meaning

 

[Straybow]

Thanks for your input. More clarification. I envision a company (mega-corp or slightly smaller obtaining rights to colonize a system in some spacial backwater. No known sentient beings. Possibility of illegal activity by persons unknown that leads to small scale combat like high tech rustlers or poachers. These would be the only human adversaries. Others would possibly be animals, or the world itself. Maybe like hurricanes etc.

I dunno, doesn't really explain why they are stuck at an Old West level of tech. Automated mining equipment can make almost any resource readily available, and automated manufacturing would make almost any tools and arms at high TL cheaply. The initial cost is minor when setting up a mostly self-sufficient colony and the company underwrites the.

On the other hand, if you envision a group of idealists, quasi-luddites willing to go a little farther up the tech tree than the Amish, that would be a different story. Or maybe a wilderness adventure planet for tourists.

By the way, some Amish cheat. They'll buy all kinds of modern conveniences such as blenders, vacuum cleaners, etc., and replace the electric motors with pneumatic turbines. They'll have their houses "tubed" for high pressure air instead of wired for electricity.

 

[Qstor2]

More clarifications: 1) It's a book plot not necessarily based in Traveller

Hey if you get the OK from MWM why not

Mike

 

[JAFARR]

I dunno, doesn't really explain why they are stuck at an Old West level of tech. Automated mining equipment can make almost any resource readily available, and automated manufacturing would make almost any tools and arms at high TL cheaply. The initial cost is minor when setting up a mostly self-sufficient colony and the company underwrites the.

They aren't stuck there, it's where I choose to start them. Why? Because I happen to like westerns and science fiction and I want to blend the two of them.

 

[JAFARR]

What is the possibility of a binary system with the stars in far orbit around each other and both stars having an earth type planet? Say one is inhabited and just reaching space travel tech levels and some company in the space tech industry decides to send a colony to the other world.

 

[su_liam]

What is the possibility of a binary system with the stars in far orbit around each other and both stars having an earth type planet? Say one is inhabited and just reaching space travel tech levels and some company in the space tech industry decides to send a colony to the other world.

The square of the probability of a single planet orbiting a single star. So if the probability of a habitable planet orbiting an arbitrary star were 1% then the probability of two habitable planets in a binary system would be 1 in 10,000.

So the scenario you postulate is unlikely, but possible. I wouldn't have a bunch of binaries like that in the Spinward Marches, but one example would rock.

I like the idea.

 

[JAFARR]

I knew it was sort of a slim probability, but I have gone in a different direction anyway.

Your numbers indicate only one in 15 to 20+ sectors.
I have 1st survey at hand and added up the total number of worlds. 4026 in 9sectors. Of course some of them have parts of the claw so the average density might be a little low unless some other of those sectors is at higher than average density.

Let's see 80 chances per subsector 80x16=1280 chances per sector at an average of 50% = 640 worlds per sector. Actually all are below the therotical average. Call it 18 to 23 sectors to get 1 such combination if your 1% is correct.

See next post for where I am heading.

 

[JAFARR]

Basic plan

Introduction

Oasis is a small world, actually the moon of a gas giant in the Void. She has seven neighboring systems that form the Oasis cluster. The old empire settled Oasis as part of what was called the “High Jump” passage across the Void, over 600 standard years ago. The unit of interstellar distance used by the empire was based on distance a ship could travel and called a jump. One jump covered one parsec. The Void is our name for the region of space in which the cluster is located, the empire called it something else, but that name has long been lost.

According to the information left from the empirical days, It required a ship capable of what was then called jump 5 technology to reach Oasis, the gateway system to the cluster. The rest of the cluster could then be reached by a jump 2 ship or a jump 1 ship with extra fuel. About 100 years after Oasis was settled, something happened with or to the empire because no ships were using the passage. It has been over 500 standard years since the last ship arrived at Oasis from outside the system. We have many ships in this system, but they only have sub-light drive systems. The other worlds and the asteroid belt have all been explored, but this system lacks one resource that is required to make the so-called jump drives that moved the old empire through space, a source of lanthium crystals. We have the technical understanding and equipment to make the machinery, but we have not been able to find a source or make an artificial crystal that would function reliably in the so called jump drives.

About 100 standard years ago, our scientists made a discovery that might allow them to modify our in system drives into a FTL drive. Now, that possibility has become a realty. The big problem is size prohibits mounting both drives in the same ship. This has been resolved by making it possible to convert between the two systems. This conversion requires about two hours and leaves the ship without drives during conversion. That is not good, but that is what we have at this point.

It’s time to visit some other systems and see if we can find some lanthium crystals. Our only choices are the neighboring seven systems as the upper limit to our current drives is roughly jump 2.


As you can see this has potential to tie into Traveller very easily.

 

[Jacqual]

Well the Modern Compound Bow does breakdown yes but if you upgrade the quality of the parts using composite materials. The bow would be much more reliable. The arrows for compund bows if they were made of composite materials as well would last forever. The arrow heads would recieve the brunt from use whether you hit or missed your mark. Modern Boots using Velium Soles last virtually forever my workboots the tops wear out before the bottoms, and I usually keep a pair for 2 or 3 years before replacement at that. As far as weapons go for firearms that will last a long time even modern powders can be made with minor equipment set up a small factory of some type for powder fabrication and away you go easy enough to ship in anything missing element wise to create powder. As for firearms rifles over handguns any day and build them like the WW2 enfields with full stock protection for the barrels using composite materials. Semi-automatic is pretty reliable today look at the Ruger 10/22 small clip fed and just keeps going. Use a slightly more powerful round if the enviroment needs it or even a much more powerful round. If the local animal life is like rabbits and prairie dogs a .22 will do whatever you need, but if the animal life is buffalo or even bigger well you need a little more bang.

 

[Brian Blank]

One thing any colony will want and need is high quality steel Knives, Axes, Hoes, Picks, Hammers and other tools. Forges to make and repair other items will also be desirable.

 

[spank]

What TL would be producing the products?

What about body armor?
Composites might be easy to make, fenol for example.
Many things could be made of aluminium, the primary reason it was not used earlier was because it was not understood how to alloy it properly,
lubricants
Watches, and radios would have a large impact, they could be easily produced, and carried by the settlers. Radios would require only a transmitter, and could be used for weather warnings, they could even be crankpowered, or run off low tech batteries.
Camoflage might have a big impact too.
If you are staying with black powder, muzzleloading arms, it would be easy to make a break top revolver like the Schofield or a flip open model with a replaceable cylinder, so you could load them in bulk and speedload with them.
If you are going to use leverguns it is actually a very short walk to machineguns, Browning's first prototype was a modified levergun.
You might consider using lasers, they could be charged slowly overtime, either from a windmill waterwheel, or other source, and would require no supplies to be purchased unlike slugthrowers.

 

[JAFARR]

...
Radios would require only a transmitter, and could be used for weather warnings, they could even be crankpowered, or run off low tech batteries.
....

I work in a pawn shop and just had one of these forfeited. It ran about as long as I had cranked it

 

[JAFARR]

What TL would be producing the products?

What about body armor?
Composites might be easy to make, fenol for example.
Many things could be made of aluminium, the primary reason it was not used earlier was because it was not understood how to alloy it properly,
lubricants
Watches, and radios would have a large impact, they could be easily produced, and carried by the settlers. Radios would require only a transmitter, and could be used for weather warnings, they could even be crankpowered, or run off low tech batteries.
Camoflage might have a big impact too.
If you are staying with black powder, muzzleloading arms, it would be easy to make a break top revolver like the Schofield or a flip open model with a replaceable cylinder, so you could load them in bulk and speedload with them.
If you are going to use leverguns it is actually a very short walk to machineguns, Browning's first prototype was a modified levergun.
You might consider using lasers, they could be charged slowly overtime, either from a windmill waterwheel, or other source, and would require no supplies to be purchased unlike slugthrowers.

See post titled Introduction above. The story will be about the people who leave Oasis to explore the rest of the cluster. The main goal is to find a source of lanthium crystals. In the course of doing that they will also be looking to set up a colony on each of the other likely worlds in the cluster because they may not find the crystals right away. As these people are working independently of each other, there may be conflict between parties, but the primary opposition will be the worlds themselves.

If you have read any of Louis Lamour's stories like Sackett's Land or To The Far Blue Mountains, you will have an idea where I want to go with the story. I intend to use Traveller's rule for the foundation of the systems, but I may have to assign some values rather than randomly generate them. As some of you may have guessed, the cluster is located in the "claw", with Oasis being one of the systems on the Jump 5 route across the claw. It was set up as a refueling and repair depot, the abandoned according to the story line for some as yet undisclosed reason.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

What is the possibility of a binary system with the stars in far orbit around each other and both stars having an earth type planet? Say one is inhabited and just reaching space travel tech levels and some company in the space tech industry decides to send a colony to the other world.

Well, the possibility would be 1/36 * whatever the possibility is for a binary system (IIRC). I believe a "Far" orbit occurs once on the table, with about 1/3 of the systems being binarys. (This is LBB6.)

You don't need jump, though if it's only a far orbiting binary. Or, did I miss something in there?

 

[whartung]

See post titled Introduction above. The story will be about the people who leave Oasis to explore the rest of the cluster. The main goal is to find a source of lanthium crystals. In the course of doing that they will also be looking to set up a colony on each of the other likely worlds in the cluster because they may not find the crystals right away. As these people are working independently of each other, there may be conflict between parties, but the primary opposition will be the worlds themselves.

Well, you'll need to flesh out these details about the jump drive.

Frankly, converting a STL drive to FTL in 2 hrs is nothing, assuming it's reliable.

I mean, heck, 2 hrs in a journey taking over a week to 10 days? Big deal. No drives for the duration? So what -- you're in deep space. The risk is simply "breaking" both drives and being stranded, but since this transition will happen in deep space, well, you're kind of SOL if that happens, so end of story.

I don't think you should consider these long term primitive survival missions. There's no reason. Rather, these are simply exotic camping trips, with the starship doubling as the Winnebago. RV to the stars!

The GOAL, it seems, is to locate the lanthium crystals. When you find them, I guarantee you that you will get the capital investment necessary to make a sweet little TL-12+ Shangri La in the middle of nowhere, with the fusion generator powering the fuel purification plant that's sucking either riverwater or ground water from a laser bored well.

During the explorations, you're camping. Bring some rifles to fend off the local DamnBeasts, maybe put some exotic food on the table. But fuel the air/rafts from the ship, which is fueled from a local water source and it's inbuilt purification plants. Ship can stay in orbit and come down once a week, or you can simply park it in a handy meadow and use the pull out awning.

A TL-13 fusion generator weight 3 tons, takes 1 cubic meter, and generates 3MW. With a 5 gallon tank of LHyd it will run for a week. So, you have this heavy thing about the size of a washing machine, runs on propane from Lowes (so you can power the generator or switch it over to a camping grill for some wienies and burgers), and will power a small city.

Once the mine claim has been properly surveyed (either through this, or through later camping/survey trips), then labor is brought in to either create housing out of the local materials or, more likely, assembling pre-fab housing components. You can load a crap load of 2x4s and plywood in a 200 dTon freighter. If the land is safe, the construction gang can live in tents. If not, bring in the herbicides, bulldozers and hunters and make the area safe. Bring fences first.

And if all of this sounds too expensive, then I guess the lanthium simply isn't worth it, is it? That's the crux. These are the costs necessary to exploit the resources. The laborers who will work the mine don't want to go camping. They want good food, air conditioning, whores and other entertainment.

My point is that if you want to be thinking about "Wild West" you should be thinking of "Outland", not poor people stuggling to make a new start in a distant world after serving their indentured service. Simply put, that meme won't fly, not in a modern society. It's simply too dangerous. There are FAR easier ways to make money first and buy the land someplace safe.

We take our technology with us. Every little light in the desert has some kind of gas generator powering it and the DirecTV, and a propane tank heating the trailer or small house. Even backpackers today go in with the finest gear they can buy rather than canvas tents and fur blankets.

That doesn't make the story uninteresting, I just think the setting isn't properly thought out. Lots of adventure in scouting new worlds, particularly when something goes wrong. But if the ships are reliable, then there's simply no reason to send folks out in to the void unsupported. And if you want to run a Hudson Bay company, then there better be a LOT of money there to attract the hunters, trappers, and miners away from civilisation.

 

[spank]

What TL?

I read the introduction, but I did not see what TL you were shooting for.