What is the working life time of a space craft?

[Drakon]

Never lose sight of the fact that manufacturers are in business to make a profit. They may put some restrictions on what they'll do to make more money (selling products they know to be unsafe, for example), but if they don't make money, they go out of business. There are always different valuations placed on different factors, too; some buyers may prefer low initial cost, and accept a lower resale value, while other buyers may be more interested in minimal maintenance costs, and be prepared to pay a slightly higher price on the front end. Yet another purchaser may want something more comfortable, and be willing to spend a little more for it, while another purchaser may be looking to spend as little as possible, and willing to accept some rather spartan accommodations in return.

If a ship is easier to maintain than another one, that is a factor that adds to the ship's value. If it provides extra value at the same price, then unless there is some other factor at work, it will capture a greater market share; if instead the extra value means that the ship has a higher price, its market share probably won't increase too much.

Manufacturers will be trying to balance the "profit per unit" and the "number of units sold" amounts to maximize total profit. Different manufacturers will have different strategies for doing so, and different abilities to produce efficiently. They have different abilities, motives, and resources, just like buyers do. The balances that each one brings to the transaction are what make markets complicated.

Yes.

Different companies will design their ships differently, based on these market factors. Some combination of these market values will lend itself to long lived ships. Some won't but short lived ships, well, don't live too long. Nor do their crews. Dead crews not only do not buy new ships, but serve as examples to other folks of what NOT to buy. Capitalism is Lemarkian, and to the extent that long life sells ships, and parts and support, it will re-enforce that aspect of starship design.

 

[tinker123]

I guess I was overly influenced by "The Man in the White Suit" - in which a fabric is invented that doesn't wear out or stain, and the textile mill owners try to buy out the inventor or silence him permanently because that would be the end of their business.

Of course, Far Traders can be kept going for a long time (just like DC-3s) if they are taken apart and rebuilt on a regular basis. That generates a lot of money for after-market businesses, but is mostly irrelevant to the original manufacturer.

Reputations for reliability sell products when there is a wide enough market for a statistically significant sample (so it may apply to different shipyards building a popular class like the Type A) and the consumers get a free choice and have access to good data. I don't really anticipate wannabee free traders reading "What cargo-hauler?" magazine in the far future.

Plus the 3I background has this strange feature of standard designs, which mean that everyone builds the Type S with a useless air system, because that's what it says in the plans.

Sorry to have such low expectations, but useless rubbish that is expensive to maintain will always sell because there will always be optimistic / inexperienced people to buy it.

 

[Ishmael]

Of course, Far Traders can be kept going for a long time (just like DC-3s) if they are taken apart and rebuilt on a regular basis. That generates a lot of money for after-market businesses, but is mostly irrelevant to the original manufacturer.

I doubt that aftermarket parts are irrelevant to the original manufacturer simply because of liscencing and patent issues. The Aftermarket parts people will have to buy liscences to manufacture parts that fit specs of original or else company can/will call in Imperium about disrupted trade, blah blah blah. Think blackmarket parts will be as good?..maybe..mmost likely not....maybe original calls for metric but this part is sae.....or a fraction of an inch longer, etc. Woe to players who buy it without checking and find out such 'defects' because the maker didn't buy liscence or have access to original specs.

Maybe megacorps make constant changes to product lines for such reasons under the guise of 'cosmetic changes' or'new and improved' but otherwise unchanged in function....

just an idea............

 

[chshrkt]

...The last thing a starship manufacturer wants, is to get a reputation as a maker of death traps.

I had to post this of course:

And don't ride in anything with a Capissen 38 engine, they fall right out of the sky.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled on-topic thread...

 

[Icosahedron]

I guess I was overly influenced by "The Man in the White Suit" - in which a fabric is invented that doesn't wear out or stain, and the textile mill owners try to buy out the inventor or silence him permanently because that would be the end of their business.

Me too. Alec Guinness IIRC?

Reputations for reliability sell products when there is a wide enough market for a statistically significant sample (so it may apply to different shipyards building a popular class like the Type A) and the consumers get a free choice and have access to good data. I don't really anticipate wannabee free traders reading "What cargo-hauler?" magazine in the far future.

They might read it, but there's no saying the preferred models will be available in this sector.

Plus the 3I background has this strange feature of standard designs, which mean that everyone builds the Type S with a useless air system, because that's what it says in the plans.

:rofl: And the guy advertising an upgrade in 'What Cargo-hauler' doesn't ship to this sector, or the shipping costs exceed the purchase price.

Sorry to have such low expectations, but useless rubbish that is expensive to maintain will always sell because there will always be optimistic / inexperienced people to buy it.

And it's usually cheaper to produce. Win-win for the manufacturers.

 

[JKH1232]

I doubt that aftermarket parts are irrelevant to the original manufacturer simply because of liscencing and patent issues. The Aftermarket parts people will have to buy liscences to manufacture parts that fit specs of original or else company can/will call in Imperium about disrupted trade, blah blah blah.

So, in other words, Starship manufacturing companies could divest themselves of the burden of actually making the parts themselves, sell the rights to a bunch of different companies in different sectors all over the Empire, get a small percentage kickback on each part sold, and make money for nothing? And at the same time rid themselves of the payroll, admin and facilities overhead costs?

Seems to me that you'd have a lot of people operating on that business model- the starship designers get a fee for basically nothing, Aftermarket guys get a leg up in local space, and everyone gets lower price parts. (Gotta figure if someone can really cut the price on making them, they'd flood the market)

It really comes down to how megacorps work IUTU- do they have a stranglehold in space, or are they just the ones with a wide span?

 

[Ishmael]

So, in other words, Starship manufacturing companies could divest themselves of the burden of actually making the parts themselves, sell the rights to a bunch of different companies in different sectors all over the Empire, get a small percentage kickback on each part sold, and make money for nothing? And at the same time rid themselves of the payroll, admin and facilities overhead costs?

Seems to me that you'd have a lot of people operating on that business model- the starship designers get a fee for basically nothing, Aftermarket guys get a leg up in local space, and everyone gets lower price parts. (Gotta figure if someone can really cut the price on making them, they'd flood the market)

The alternative is that you can ONLY get replacement parts from the original company which means it has a monopoly and can charge whatever it likes. The only other place for parts would be illegal black markets.

Major auto manufacturers use this model in addition to making 'genuine' premium priced parts. But cheaper parts are made by third party companies....and nearly all high-performance/"chrome" parts are too ( at least they were back when I built a hot-rod or two.

or like computer industry...'aftermarket' companies make programs for Microsoft...imagine if ALL software were made by MS instead of them proviidng some info on their OS ( but not all, they have to keep some secrets to be able to provide 'premium' higher cost software ). People have to pay for that info and spec sheet too.

With so many worlds in the Imperium, no reason that Both models can't exist and trade wars/privateers/industrial espionage to undermine the other guy/monopolies all over the place.

just an idea

 

[JAFARR]

Oh for Niven's "General Products Hulls".

Given the rules about plans for standardized plans, I think that the original intent was for standard parts regardless of who made them. I know that there must be literally thousands of designs floating around in OTU alone. However, look at it this way: I was a machinist in the Charleston Naval Shipyard in Charleston S.C. I made and/or machined parts for obsolete components many times. I am sure that in a universe able to actually manufacture working spacecraft, there is some way to provide blueprints and schematics (both software and hard copy versions) to the ship for unique parts while standard parts designs would be readily available wherever said parts and components are quote "standard".

 

[atpollard]

Oh for Niven's "General Products Hulls".

Given the rules about plans for standardized plans, I think that the original intent was for standard parts regardless of who made them. I know that there must be literally thousands of designs floating around in OTU alone. However, look at it this way: I was a machinist in the Charleston Naval Shipyard in Charleston S.C. I made and/or machined parts for obsolete components many times. I am sure that in a universe able to actually manufacture working spacecraft, there is some way to provide blueprints and schematics (both software and hard copy versions) to the ship for unique parts while standard parts designs would be readily available wherever said parts and components are quote "standard".

From what I read about modern manufacturing in the real world, we are approaching the end of mass production of standardized parts. Computer Aided Design and Drafting (CADD) and Computer Aided Manufacturing (CAM) are reaching a state where 'Print on Demand' will begin to apply to manufactured goods. In Architecture, read about REVIT - entire buildings are being designed, built, assembled, maintained, upgraded and recycled using perfectly detailed computer models that control the entire life-cycle of the building.

For Traveller, this could easily imply that YOU have the full schematics for your ship and can simply order a replacement part 'built on demand' on any world with a sufficiently high TL to build the part.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[dean]

For Traveller, this could easily imply that YOU have the full schematics for your ship and can simply order a replacement part 'built on demand' on any world with a sufficiently high TL to build the part.

Just my 2 cents.

A few extra bucks and some tonnage dedicated to a fab shop and 95% of the parts on your mid-to-large ships ought to be fully reproducable right on the ship. Just a question of having the right materials on-hand to do the job.

Of couse, that 5% of parts are probably pretty important parts...

 

[Renaissance Man]

Just a question - but wouldn't the amount of action a ship has seen be a major variable in the operating lifespan?

A ship with a bonded superdense hull will probably have little trouble with space debris and radiation. It may even be impervious to hot re-entries. But what about all those missile impacts? All those times it limped into space-dock with a hope and a prayer?

 

[JKH1232]

Just a question - but wouldn't the amount of action a ship has seen be a major variable in the operating lifespan?

Of course- but, PCs aside the vast majority of ships outside of the TNE universe will have seen little, if any "action." (Vast majority meaning probably over 90%, at least IMTU)

 

[BlackBat242]

A few extra bucks and some tonnage dedicated to a fab shop and 95% of the parts on your mid-to-large ships ought to be fully reproducable right on the ship. Just a question of having the right materials on-hand to do the job.

Of couse, that 5% of parts are probably pretty important parts...

The last CT adventure I ran, the PCs had a TL 12, 300t customized merchant ship (one of the co-owners had skills in Starship design from the "Imperial Academy of Science and Medicine"... see article in JTAS #22), which had a dedicated 10 ton "maintenance bay"... which included a CNC/rapid-prototyping unit, as well as other neat stuff.


They liked going well outside normal space routes.

 

[Drakon]

Of course, Far Traders can be kept going for a long time (just like DC-3s) if they are taken apart and rebuilt on a regular basis. That generates a lot of money for after-market businesses, but is mostly irrelevant to the original manufacturer.

This would depend on the royalty/licensing fee structure. Even if the producing shipyard had to pay a nominal fee for use of the design, enough ships and yards build it, that can add up. That can become a major source.

I don't really anticipate wannabee free traders reading "What cargo-hauler?" magazine in the far future.

Why not? You see that kind of market today, what with all the sail boat and aircraft magazines out there. I would even suggest that the major market for those magazines are non boaters and non pilots.

Sorry to have such low expectations, but useless rubbish that is expensive to maintain will always sell because there will always be optimistic / inexperienced people to buy it.

I have to agree, most of the market will not be with long lived ships. But I still think that there will be a market for reliable starships, that it will be a big chunk, if not the majority, of the market. Reliable ships will last longer, and their crews will survive and prosper.

And I think that the unique hazards of space flight will lead to reliable, long lived ships, because less reliable models will get their crews killed. Dead crews serve as examples of what not to buy

 

[Drakon]

So, in other words, Starship manufacturing companies could divest themselves of the burden of actually making the parts themselves, sell the rights to a bunch of different companies in different sectors all over the Empire, get a small percentage kickback on each part sold, and make money for nothing? And at the same time rid themselves of the payroll, admin and facilities overhead costs?

I recently learned of this business model in the real world. Our company had a "workforce restructuring" and as I was in the test department, my job was outsourced. (That second company then hired me to teach them my job, so that is kind of weird.)

It seems that my previous company wanted to be nothing more than a sales and engineering/design firm. Anyone who really knew how the thing was built got laid off and their jobs outsourced.

 

[Drakon]

The alternative is that you can ONLY get replacement parts from the original company which means it has a monopoly and can charge whatever it likes. The only other place for parts would be illegal black markets.

But there is no single starship manufacturer. For this to work, you would need collusion between all of the major starship yards. The first guy who comes up with franchising scheme, where the customer can get approved or licenced parts out in the boonies, for less, is going to eat a lot of his competitor's lunches.

We've seen this in the real world with the Betamax/VHS war. Or IBM/Microsoft versus Apple. JVC owned the market for consumer video recording, while Sony's Betamax was limited to professional units. Sony was more expensive, but any VHS unit was interchangable with any other manufacturer's unit.

With so many worlds in the Imperium, no reason that Both models can't exist and trade wars/privateers/industrial espionage to undermine the other guy/monopolies all over the place.

just an idea

But I do think that those who refuse to license to third parties will be at an economic disadvantage. They will not make as much money on that product line, where they are competing against franchises and licenses.

Think about it this way. If I buy a franchise/license to produce parts, I am actively working toward helping that product line. Its success will determine my own, and vice versa. That motivates me more than if I was just selling someone else's stuff, especially if my stock is not exclusively one companies product. Its the difference between being an employee and a business owner. Even a franchise owner is still a part owner, and that adds to the motivation.

 

[GypsyComet]

But I do think that those who refuse to license to third parties will be at an economic disadvantage. They will not make as much money on that product line, where they are competing against franchises and licenses.

Think about it this way. If I buy a franchise/license to produce parts, I am actively working toward helping that product line. Its success will determine my own, and vice versa. That motivates me more than if I was just selling someone else's stuff, especially if my stock is not exclusively one companies product. Its the difference between being an employee and a business owner. Even a franchise owner is still a part owner, and that adds to the motivation.

I see this happening far more in the TL10-13 range, where the manufacturing capabilities are widespread. The transition (during the closing days of the 3I, at least) from prestige parts with one manufacturer to licensed and/or "generic" parts would still be underway for TL14 and 15 parts, and not yet happening for TL16 parts. The translight drive (and heck, the whole ship) in The Phantom Menace is a prime example. The ship is built by a prestige manufacturer whose products simply cannot be replicated at the generally available TL. Using generic parts is asking for trouble, if they work at all, and there are no licenses. By comparison, the trusty old (emphasis on old) freighter known as the Millennium Falcon can scrounge bits from just about any pick-a-part yard in the (SW) galaxy, and probably has.

Recall that TL11-12 has been widespread across 3I Known Space for literally thousands of years, and that for much of that the extremely conservative Vilani ruled the biggest empire seen since the Ancients. Knowing how their approach to innovation ran, most of the odd parts manufactured during the Ziru Sirka are probably long gone back into the crucible, but the overlay of Solomani thought present during the Ramshackle Empire and into the Long Night would have introduced the idea of "rebuilds" to the Vilani. Must have been horrifying. The upshot would be that, in the right scrapyard looking for the right piece, a Rebellion-era scrounger might well come up with parts that have a manufacturing date prior to the Civil Wars, or some odd kluge manufactured during the Long Night. And they might be just what he needs...

 

[spank]

Liscense fees

There would not nesicarily be these fees to update a design, Pratt and witney or GE do not have to take out a license to hang their engines on an airframe.
The same is true with all aftermarket parts, there is no requirement that, for example Edlebrock pay a fee to Chevy or Ford if they make a cam for one of thier engines.
The same is basically true of aircaft parts, the only difference is they must be certified. You can pay a fee to the certificate holder and then get a production certifice to make the same part, or you can comeup with your own engineering data, get your own part approved, and then make you own part withou paying them any money, of course there must be some market for this to be worth while.
This is also true for aftermarket airframe mods, many cargo aircraft did not start life as such, but were converted after their passenger days where done.
If their are enough spacecraft lying around that need parts to fly, and the manufacture is not filling the need, there will be an aftermarket to fill that need.
Unless the regulatory body is coluding with the manufactures to withhold certification. This could still lead to an unregulated blackmarket parts, if the demand is high enough.

 

[G. Fieendish]

Re: last post
Ever heard of exclusivity agreements/deals between manafacturers....?
As for non Original Equipment Manafacturer (OEM) parts, the report of the 2002 Concorde disaster, that effectively caused it's retirement, blamed a non OEM part on a Continental Airlines airliner, that dropped off the aircraft, when it took off on a scheduled passenger flight, just before Concorde took off....

 

[spank]

Exculsivity agreements

These agreements may exist for things that are facory new, but on equipment farther into it's life cycle you may have parts from any manufacture.
For example the super 70 series dc-8 was an aftermarket refit for the 60 series producion models, it used a CFM-56 engine, which was not even on the drawing board when the airframes came off the line.
Sure some people will by only new spacecraft, but a sizeable amount will also find ways to make what they can afford work, and the aftermarket will support them because there is money to be made.