• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

Imperial Marine Platoon Organization

Sturn

SOC-13
I'm was writing a short story involving a Marine platoon (3rd Imperium). I want to keep things as close to canon as possible. I've been using Gurps: Ground Forces as an excellent, detailed source. But, I've since learned there are earlier sources of Marine organization that may be more to my liking.

Gurps Marines have large 75-man platoons which always include APCs. I imagined Marines often working without APCs (they would be an option), and having much smaller platoons, due to the power of even a single Marine in TL 15 armament.

I've read on these forums that JTAS#12 and Striker II has more information that may have a different organization? I don't have either of these. Anyone know what the break-down of a Marine platoon from any earlier sources is?
 
CT's Spinward Marches Campaign details the 4518th Lift Infantry Regiment pretty well. Each battalion has some mobile elements: Lift (APC's, grav tanks, and artillery), Cavalry (more APC's and grav tanks), and Jump (jump troops with some tank and artillery support). There's personnel and equipment detail down to the platoon level.

-Fox
 
The earliest organization tables are probably from Book 4 (LBB) Mercenary. It would seem to cover both Army and Marine organization in the Imperium.

Players have some flexibility in forming units, but the following is presented as a general guide. Radical departure from the standard organizational scheme should require training of the men to aquaint them with unfamilar tactics, organization, and chain of command.

Fire Team: ...consists of four men.

Squad: ...consist of two or three fire teams.

Section: ...generally consists of two squads, and is an intermediary step
between squad and platoon. Sections are often omitted from organizations.

Platoon: ...consists of up to three squads or two sections.

Company: ...consists of several platoons

Battalion: ...consists of several companies

Units larger than battalions will seldom be used in the type of environment mercenaries are employed in, and when used will generally
be combined arms task forces tailored to a specific mission.

So while the organization is specific to mercenaries, by virtue of the retraining notes it can be read that the Imperium (or Confederation, or whatever) use a very similar if not identical organization. Mercs will use the same organization so they don't have to retrain recruits to the chain of command and structure of the forces.

I suspect this is very similar to the GURPS model so you should be fine using that :)
 
Yet another reason I need to get the Spinward Marches Campaign (CT). From what I understand it also has details of the 5th Frontier War I would like to have (for a new campaign). I only have the SM supplement. The CT SMC costs way too much to get a copy (last saw one at Amazon for over $60). Is the information in it available anywhere else? Looks like it isn't one of the books included in the reprints.

I do have the original 5th Frontier War boardgame, which has some history of the war, but isn't very detailed (bunch of TAS type news entries). Is the same information in the SMC, or is the SMC more detailed?
 
...The CT SMC costs way too much to get a copy (last saw one at Amazon for over $60). Is the information in it available anywhere else? Looks like it isn't one of the books included in the reprints.

Not in the print reprints, but it is on the CT CD ROM from FFE, along with everything else from CT canon, for just $35.

http://www.farfuture.net/

There's a few reviews and such of it around the site here. I'd hunt them up but I'm pressed for time at the moment :)
 
Not in the print reprints, but it is on the CT CD ROM from FFE, along with everything else from CT canon, for just $35.

Ah great! Didn't think about that thanks. I have the MT CD (if I can find where I put the darn disc), but have never gotten around to ordering the CT CD. With T5 ordered, and about another $50 on ebay for some new Traveller stuff (since I got the bug again), I will have to wait a couple months and buy the Empress something to wear before I can order it. :devil:
 
Sturn, JTAS 12 does not go into much detail at the platoon level, but it does present a platoon smaller than the Gurps model you mentioned. The excerpt below is all the detail in the article:

JTAS 12 said:
A marine platoon contains a support APC (with a driver, a gunner, the platoon leader and the assistant platoon leader. The two senior personnel are trained as artillery observers) and five squads. Each squad consists of an APC (with a driver, a gunner, a squad leader, and two four-man fireteams). The marine platoon contains 6 vehicles and 59 personnel.

There is more detail there on the other elements of marine organizations but nothing more about the platoon.
 
Sturn, JTAS 12 does not go into much detail at the platoon level, but it does present a platoon smaller than the Gurps model you mentioned. The excerpt below is all the detail in the article:

Originally Posted by JTAS 12
A marine platoon contains a support APC (with a driver, a gunner, the platoon leader and the assistant platoon leader. The two senior personnel are trained as artillery observers) and five squads. Each squad consists of an APC (with a driver, a gunner, a squad leader, and two four-man fireteams). The marine platoon contains 6 vehicles and 59 personnel.

There is more detail there on the other elements of marine organizations but nothing more about the platoon.

Some similarities to Gurps: Ground Forces, but some large differences also.

Gurps platoon also has 5 squads each with an APC plus the platoon leader's team in a 6th APC. BUT, each squad is 10 plus an APC crew of 3 (total 13 instead of 11), and the platoon leader's APC has a total of 10 instead of 4. A 59-man platoon vs. a 75-man one. The earlier seems more canon to me, but I love the detail of the Grups supplement. At least they both have APCs and both have 5 squads plus command element.

Thanks for the help.

EDIT: Since I got your attention, does SMC mention a tank or APC by name? Gurps speaks of the Intrepid tank and Astrin APC coming out just after the 5th Frontier War. The predecessor to the Astrin was the Kushkikkan APC; don't recall if anything stated what was around before the Intrepid tank. T20 contradicts all of that, from what I recall their version is the Intrepida and Astrin are around 100 years old by the 5th Frontier War (I think T20 just adjusted the history so they could use the same famous vehicles set in their meliu around a 100? years before 5th Frontier War).
 
Last edited:
Slight confusion here - SMC describes the 4518th Lift Infantry. This is not/not a Marine unit, nor is it an Imperial Army mainforce unit - rather it is a colonial unit (admittedly an elite one). You have been given some misinformation about the 4518th earlier in the thread - each battalion is single purpose i.e. lift infantry or jump infantry or cav, not mixed as the poster implied. The SMC description of the 4518th is largely congruent with that in TNE/Striker II. The 20dT TL15 grav tank used by the 4518th is simply known as the "Imperial Heavy Grav Tank" (and as an aside, is overweight and overpriced for what it can do). It seems to be a common Imperial Army/Marine weapon, used by the canon described Imperial Guard on Capital/Core and the Marine Armoured Cavalry Regiment. The "Trepida" does not serve with the 4518th or Marines in canon.

The Imperial Marine Task Force is described first in JTAS 12, and later in TNE/Striker II. Further detail to that posted earlier in the thread indicates that Imperial Marines are equipped to TL15 standards, all are in Battle Dress and armed with FGMP-14s. Platoon fire support comes from the Imperial Marine Support Sled with a Fusion-Z gun. The JTAS article makes clear that Imperial Marines as shipboard troops do not deploy with their heavy vehicles. TNE/Striker II also details a Marine Armoured Cavalry Regiment (later copied in GT: Ground Forces).
 
The "Trepida" does not serve with the ..... Marines in canon.

You might be able to make an assumption about this for CT, but not about canon.

GDW CT: From what I understand, doesn't mention a tank by name..that doesn't seem to rule out the Trepida/Intrepid. The post above suggests CT mentioning a heavy grav tank being used by Marines, but doesn't name it.

GDW MT: "The Trepida became the standard issue Imperial grav tank..." Rebellion sourcebook. Just says "standard" Imperial grav tank, not Army or Marines. Other tanks are not described in the same source and the word, "standard" is used, so the assumption is it is used by both.

GDW TNE: The Intrepid "was the standard heavy grav tank of the pre-Collapse armed forces of the Last Imperium". Different spelling, but note the similarity in the names, and the exact same picture was used for both. Note that "standard" and "armed forces" was used, implying again it was used by both the Imperial Army and Marines. RC Equipment Guide.

T20: Setting is about 100 years before the default Traveller setting. It lists the Zhakirov as the current heavy tank of the Army and Marines. It mentions the Intrepid (similar picture to above) as the new heavy tank for the Imperal Army. It doesn't mention what the new heavy tank for the Marines might be. Against Gravity supplement.

T4: Setting is far before the Intrepid/Trepida would have existed.

Gurps: "The Intrepid serves the Imperium as its main battle tank". The same source has TOE lists which specifically state the Intrepid is the tank of the Imperial Marines at the end of the 5th Frontier War.

Someone may know of a source that specifically states the Intrepid/Trepida is not used by the Marines, but until then, all sources that may be considered canon that I know of either don't rule out the Intrepid or specifically state that it was used by the Marines.
 
Last edited:
Places to check: Striker (CT), and Striker II (TNE).
As noted, Trepida didn't exist at time of writing of CT/Striker (it is a DGP invention for MT/101 Vehicles), and at time of TNE/Striker II it is clearly shown in the rules that the Imperial Marines use the "Imperial Heavy Grav Tank" not/not Trepida (the stats are given for both - there is a clear design difference which is common throughout canon - the Trepida is smaller and lighter than the "heavy Grav Tank", and is TL14 as opposed to TL15). TNE/Regency material says that Trepida was rapidly replaced by far more effective TL15 "Norris" grav tank which combines Trepida's small size with heavy firepower of "Heavy Grav Tank".
As already noted, canon sources (including in TNE) for 4518th Lift Infantry (Colonial unit largely equipped to Imperial stds) and the Imperial Guard (including the Household Cavalry - 'the Emperor's Hammer') use "Imperial Heavy Grav Tank" not/not Trepida.

Note also that the DGP Trepida is a TL14 vehicle. All canon sources for Imperial Marines indicate they are equipped to TL15 standard as the primary striking force of the Imperium.

No doubt Trepida would be a common Imperial military vehicle, just not with the Marines in the OTU. Of course, YMMV in your universe (and frankly, the DGP MT Trepida is a rubbish design with poor protection from even moderate battlefield threats, the TNE version is far better, as is my CT/Striker retcon).
 
Slight confusion here - SMC describes the 4518th Lift Infantry. This is not/not a Marine unit, nor is it an Imperial Army mainforce unit - rather it is a colonial unit (admittedly an elite one). You have been given some misinformation about the 4518th earlier in the thread - each battalion is single purpose i.e. lift infantry or jump infantry or cav, not mixed as the poster implied. The SMC description of the 4518th is largely congruent with that in TNE/Striker II.

I apologize if my post misled anyone. That was certainly not my intent. There is nothing inaccurate about my original post; the information is from pg.39 of SMC. I was simply stating a CT source (other than Book 4) that details a military unit down to the platoon level, and the fact that each battalion, regardless of its purpose, is outfitted with grav vehicles.

While the 4518th may not be a Marine unit per se, the regiment was originally formed from a Marine cadre unit and still employs Marine veterans (hence the cutlass in the unit's crest).

-Fox
 
I apologize if my post misled anyone. That was certainly not my intent. There is nothing inaccurate about my original post; the information is from pg.39 of SMC. I was simply stating a CT source (other than Book 4) that details a military unit down to the platoon level, and the fact that each battalion, regardless of its purpose, is outfitted with grav vehicles.

While the 4518th may not be a Marine unit per se, the regiment was originally formed from a Marine cadre unit and still employs Marine veterans (hence the cutlass in the unit's crest).

-Fox

I'm the one apologising. I reread your post in light of your explanation and it makes perfect sense now. Sorry for getting the wrong end of the stick!
 
Did some more reading for the tank debate....

It looks like only GDW TNE specifically suggests that the Trepida wasn't the standard tank of the Imperial Marines (Regency Vehicle Guide). Even so, another TNE product (Regency Equipment Guide) suggests that the Trepida was the standard grav tank of all Imperial forces (which would include both Army and Marines). Canon MT also states the Trepida was the standard tank of both the Army and Marines. I'm not speaking of DGP, but the canon MT Rebellion sourcebook. Another fact, one TNE source (RCVG) states the "Imperial Heavy Grav Tank, TL15" (which looks alot like a Trepida) was the standard tank for both Imperial Army and Marine forces, which is a direct contradiction to both MT and even another TNE source (REG)!

The Norris tank that is mentioned in TNE is also known as the "Trepida III" and doesn't appear to have been built until after the fall of the 3rd Imperium.

Although non-canon, Gurps Ground Forces, which used CT, MT, and TNE as background material and sources, labelled the Trepida as the standard tank of the Imperial Marines.

I noted that several generically named "Imperial" or "Imperial Marine" vehicles appear in TNE. There are a ton of new TNE TL15 designs in the vehicle guide. It looks like the writer(s) had fun developing several vehicles that weren't described previously using the new TNE rules.

I don't have JTAS#12 or SMC. From what I garnered from the posts above, CT never specifically named any tank or apc of the 3rd Imperium (they weren't named until MT??). I think the term "Imperial Heavy Grav Tank" is of course a description, not a proper name. Was the intention of the names "Trepida/Intrepid" and "Astrin" to give some detail to these generic titles? I personally believe that was the case for MT, but some of the TNE writers took a different route, which leads to our current discrepancies in interpreting canon.

On the argument that the Imperial Marines are only equipped at TL15: TNE Striker II, which was quoted in another post, arms the troops of an Imperial Marine Task Force with TL 14 weapons and battle dress (page 138). I find this odd myself, but it does contradict the argument that 3rd Imperium Marines wouldn't be found in a TL 14 tank or apc.

My opinion on canon is the Trepida, in one form or another, is in fact used by the Imperial Marines. I guess it's up to how you interpret the canon sources and their seeming contradictions to each other across various versions of Traveller. It looks like there is no one right answer. Like MT Canon? Use the Trepida. Like TNE Canon? Use the Imperial Heavy Grav Tank and ignore the TNE equipment guide.
 
Last edited:
My take on this is that the TL14 Trepida is the "Older Trepida" and the TL15 Heavy is the Trepida II, whether the (in the gameworld) designers liked it or not...

Envision the following exchange:
Corporal Hix, Clerk: "Sir, we just got plans for the Zhunastu Model Heavy Imperial Tank, TL 15."
Col Stanhope, Director of Procurement: "Have we got deployment orders for it?"
Hix: "No, Sir."
Stanhope: "Edit the plans, label it the Trepida Mk22a1-15."
Hix:"Sir?"
Stanhope: "Once that's done, issue deployment orders on an as available by platoon basis to all front line units. Let's get these bad-boys out there!"
Hix: "Sir! Yes, Sir!"
...
General Maxim, Deputy Commandant, Zhodani Border: "Col Stanhope?"
Stanhope: "Yes, General?"
Maxim: "We got those new Trepidas. They don't fit."
Stanhope: "Oh, really, Sir? How odd. They fly well?"
Maxim: "Crews Love them."
Stanhope: "It'll be a few years till they permeat fully, sir, so until then, keep them as elites. When they are fully there, we'll upgrade the berths. You have Procurement's permission to upgrade berths out of unit funds until then."
Maxim: "Very well, Colonel. Maxim, Out."
Maxim (to clerk): "yet another F*ing SNAFU! Get the tape to supply, and to fleet liaison. Let's get those bays converted."
 
Did some more reading for the tank debate....

It looks like only GDW TNE specifically suggests that the Trepida wasn't the standard tank of the Imperial Marines (Regency Vehicle Guide). Even so, another TNE product (Regency Equipment Guide) suggests that the Trepida was the standard grav tank of all Imperial forces (which would include both Army and Marines). Canon MT also states the Trepida was the standard tank of both the Army and Marines. I'm not speaking of DGP, but the canon MT Rebellion sourcebook. Another fact, one TNE source (RCVG) states the "Imperial Heavy Grav Tank, TL15" (which looks alot like a Trepida) was the standard tank for both Imperial Army and Marine forces, which is a direct contradiction to both MT and even another TNE source (REG)!

The Norris tank that is mentioned in TNE is also known as the "Trepida III" and doesn't appear to have been built until after the fall of the 3rd Imperium.

Although non-canon, Gurps Ground Forces, which used CT, MT, and TNE as background material and sources, labelled the Trepida as the standard tank of the Imperial Marines.

I noted that several generically named "Imperial" or "Imperial Marine" vehicles appear in TNE. There are a ton of new TNE TL15 designs in the vehicle guide. It looks like the writer(s) had fun developing several vehicles that weren't described previously using the new TNE rules.

I don't have JTAS#12 or SMC. From what I garnered from the posts above, CT never specifically named any tank or apc of the 3rd Imperium (they weren't named until MT??). I think the term "Imperial Heavy Grav Tank" is of course a description, not a proper name. Was the intention of the names "Trepida/Intrepid" and "Astrin" to give some detail to these generic titles? I personally believe that was the case for MT, but some of the TNE writers took a different route, which leads to our current discrepancies in interpreting canon.

On the argument that the Imperial Marines are only equipped at TL15: TNE Striker II, which was quoted in another post, arms the troops of an Imperial Marine Task Force with TL 14 weapons and battle dress (page 138). I find this odd myself, but it does contradict the argument that 3rd Imperium Marines wouldn't be found in a TL 14 tank or apc.

My opinion on canon is the Trepida, in one form or another, is in fact used by the Imperial Marines. I guess it's up to how you interpret the canon sources and their seeming contradictions to each other across various versions of Traveller. It looks like there is no one right answer. Like MT Canon? Use the Trepida. Like TNE Canon? Use the Imperial Heavy Grav Tank and ignore the TNE equipment guide.

Good research, but in your reading of TNE/Striker II, did it not become clear to you that the Marines are using the Imperial Heavy Grav Tank, just like the Marines in JTAS 12? Allowing for the different vehicle design systems, the Imperial Heavy Grav Tank is consistent across editions of Traveller - it is about 20dT with a big fusion gun and heavy armour. And in Striker II there is also a, quite different, Trepida grav tank included in various versions.

As to your 'finding' re TL14 Marine small arms and armour - no inconsistency here - the CT Marines in JTAS 12 use FGMP-14s and Battle Dress (which is TL14 in CT/Striker). I'm not sure if you're aware, but if you choose to equip your troops with Battle Dress then you would always choose FGMP-14s ahead of FGMP-15s unless you have more money than sense. The only purpose of FGMP-15s is for non-Battle Dress troops who need the expensive gravitic weight compensators. I say the Marines are TL15 because of the way they are represented as counters in the board wargames 5FW and Invasion Earth, as well as the line in JTAS 12 that specifically says that they are.

I accept Your Mileage Varies, but I see no specific indication in canon of any Imperial Marine unit using Trepida, as opposed to at least two separate and very specific references to TL15 20dT Imperial Heavy Grav Tanks being used (JTAS 12 and TNE/Striker II Imperial Marine TO&Es). Maybe I'm missing something?

I think Trepida is a common tank for TL14 Imperial and Colonial Army units, which we know were the norm early in the Solomani Rim War, and (from the countersheet of 5FW boardgame) still common by the time of 5FW in the Marches.

The existence of different Trepida sub-types in TNE is largely a function of the botched energy weapon rules of that set. Designers found the original Trepida main gun was not powerful enough and added the Mark II version with a more powerful weapon (see the designers notes for RegencyCVG, IIRC).
 
Good research, but in your reading of TNE/Striker II, did it not become clear to you that the Marines are using the Imperial Heavy Grav Tank, just like the Marines in JTAS 12?

It was called the Imperial Heavy Grav Tank. We could call the Challenger the British Heavy Tracked Tank. But couldn't we also call the Crusader the British Heavy Tracked Tank? And these tanks are from completely different eras. If there were more then one Imperial heavy grav tank during the same era, then why the generic title that could be used for either of them? - Because they weren't giving it a name at the time, just a description. It began as a generic title, since that was the norm in CT. When a title was finally used for an Imperial Heavy Grav Tank, note that Intrepid/Trepida were the first titles used. I know this argument can be used both ways, I'm just pointing out a different interpretation that also makes sense, and that may have been used in canon (see below).

The writer's of TNE could have just as easily interpreted the JTAS IHGT as the Trepida. One source seems to have done so, one later excellent and detailed source did not. The same writer was involved in both RCEG, which came first, then RVG, which came next. It seems he changed his mind? (see below) Why didn't he at least mention the IHGT as something different then the Trepida in his first guide? He called the Trepida the Imperial heavy grav tank of Imperial armed forces, which of course would include Marines.

As to your 'finding' re TL14 Marine small arms and armour - no inconsistency here - the CT Marines in JTAS 12 use FGMP-14s and Battle Dress

Then please don't use the argument that all Marine equipment is TL 15 in order to say the TL 14 Trepida was not used by them.


I accept Your Mileage Varies, but I see no specific indication in canon of any Imperial Marine unit using Trepida...........I think Trepida is a common tank for TL14 Imperial and Colonial Army units......

GDW Megatraveller: "The Trepida became the standard issue Imperial grav tank..." Rebellion sourcebook, a GDW product. Just says "standard" Imperial grav tank, not Army, not Colonial, not Marines. No other Imperial tanks are described in the same source and the word, "standard" is used, so the assumption can be it is used by both.

GDW TNE: The Intrepid "was the standard heavy grav tank of the pre-Collapse armed forces of the Last Imperium". RC Equipment Guide. Armed forces, not Army, not Colonial, just armed forces, which would include the very armed Marines. TNE later contradicted itself with the Regency Vehicle Guide which came out a year later.

---

My point is that the generic title in CT was just that, a generic title. When an Imperial heavy grav tank was finaly named in canon, the Trepida came along. In fact, the only other Imperial heavy grav tank in canon that was actually named is the Norris of TNE, which is aka Trepida III. I concede that the intention of early canon could have been exactly as you argued, but there is also evidence to the contrary, and why wasn't this pointed out in all the canon sources which speak of grav tanks between CT and TNE's second guide? Only the MT and CT writers themselves could answer if the Trepida tank was intended to be the Imperial Heavy Grav Tank of JTAS (and it was....an Imperial Heavy Grav Tank). TNE may have seen it one way first, then settled on another interpretation second.

I truly don't think they thought about it as much as we have. :rofl: Thanks for the debate, I know much more then I used to about the vehicles of the Imperium, but my wallet is a little more empty due to picking up PDF's of Striker II and TNE REG. :)
 
Last edited:
Back
Top