Imperial Planetologist
SOC-12
How many subsidized merchant ships does a planetary government subsidize?
How many subsidized merchants?
- Thread starter Imperial Planetologist
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far-trader
SOC-14 10K
All of them.
(sorry, couldn't resist
)
But an answer is impossible I think for anyone but you. It'll depend on a lot more information. Like small ship or big ship universe? Little trade or mega trade? Small Navy or Big Navy? Care to bounce a scenario by the Citizens though and you'll probably get a full range of feedback
It's an answer you'll have to make to fit your own situation I think. I don't even recall any canon examples. There's a few for Free-Traders and various Merchant Lines, but none subsidized that I recall (not that I trust my memory much).
(sorry, couldn't resist
)But an answer is impossible I think for anyone but you. It'll depend on a lot more information. Like small ship or big ship universe? Little trade or mega trade? Small Navy or Big Navy? Care to bounce a scenario by the Citizens though and you'll probably get a full range of feedback
It's an answer you'll have to make to fit your own situation I think. I don't even recall any canon examples. There's a few for Free-Traders and various Merchant Lines, but none subsidized that I recall (not that I trust my memory much).
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Governments subsidise traders usually if their world is off the main trade routes and x-boat network.
Look at the population code of the world to decide if it can afford to subsidise any traders first, then look at the world's likely trade partners.
Then it's a matter of how many traders you have in your game etc.
You may want 1 subby per trade destination, or you may only want to have 1 subby doing a circuit.
Look at the population code of the world to decide if it can afford to subsidise any traders first, then look at the world's likely trade partners.
Then it's a matter of how many traders you have in your game etc.
You may want 1 subby per trade destination, or you may only want to have 1 subby doing a circuit.
The view I subscribe to prefers these axioms:
* in backwater worlds, the merchant may be the only ship in port.
* thus for a subsidized route of N planets, there will be, on average, maybe N/2 subsidized merchants.
So in the Spinward Marches, for instance, there is therefore probably well under 250 subsidized merchants operating.
As a side note, Chad Russell noted to me that, under this low-traffic assumption,
Chad Russell said:
As another side note, the implications of this setting are that space is Really Big, and Quiet also means a bit Scary: At Regina's starport, for example, you're likely to see no more than (and perhaps fewer than) 100 ships per week land/dock at the downport, highport, and farport. That data point serves to set a "floor" for traffic to subsector capitals.
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far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Thanks, you're right. Technically at least
It's a pretty poor example though don't you think?
While on vacation during the annual maintenance the crew does a crime, and after their (presumed) first route stop they go off route (skipping in my book) and galavant about the subsector (laying low after their crime in their home port, presumably the port of the ship's subsidy holder). Apparently without a care in the 'verse.
They risk life and limb, not to mention the ship that isn't theirs for a year or so, probably misjumping at least once for all the unrefined fuel they are forced to use, in various misadventures and chartered services, all beyond the scope of their route duties.
And then the book mentions "Until now March Harrier has been tied down to a subsidy payment and the responsibilities that go with it..." :rofl:
And what happens to them? Are they arrested for their piracy? Are they charged for their other crimes? Do any of them feel the least bit of guilt over being involved in the high crime of Psionics?
NO.
Not only do they get to skate on all the "let's do crime" fun or make any restitution for not servicing the route per the contract. THEY GET A FULL BAILOUT ON THE SHIP TOO!
All highly contradictory to proper subsidized merchant operation.
If the Traveller Adventure is meant to be typical of subsidized merchant operations it's no wonder there are Pirates. They're all simply subsidized merchants operating outside the scope of their license without any consequences. In fact the wonder is how there can be any regular route service at all.
There's far too many tugs on the old belief suspenders in that adventure for my tastes
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Yes, it's high adventure, but why (did the writers) try to hide that by the inclusion of making the PCs do the whole subsidized thing?
Why not simply make the scenario "you commit the crime (breaking into the museum or whatever) and have to go on the run, you take the subbie and skip, staying ahead of the search by going off route exceeding your jump limit and avoiding the better ports, and getting involved in all kinds of other crime" or something like that...
Instead of: "oh yeah, while you're ignoring you obligations and running from the law, and committing other assorted crimes, be sure to make those 50% gross payments every two weeks at one of the better ports, cause you wouldn't want to get in trouble now".
Know what I mean?
So write a grand adventure by all means, but for Traveller at least, make some effort to show that it is something extraordinary and the reasons for all those one in a millions landing at the feet of the PCs.
It's bad enough the whole thing turns on the impossible "you get in a bar fight on a backwater world and save the life of the Baron", of one of the bigger merchant operations in the Marches, who not having a ride and being grateful charters you on the spot to ferry him and his aide around for a while, in your clapped out little J1 merchant, with pitifully woeful defenses compared to his competitors, and a likelihood of misjumping him somewhere he'll never get back from.
I know, that's how adventures work. I've never liked it at all for Traveller. They're bad enough for D&D but at least there we know the PCs are the heroes, favored of the gods, with all the stars and moons aligned for luck. Their job IS adventure.
Why not simply make the scenario "you commit the crime (breaking into the museum or whatever) and have to go on the run, you take the subbie and skip, staying ahead of the search by going off route exceeding your jump limit and avoiding the better ports, and getting involved in all kinds of other crime" or something like that...
Instead of: "oh yeah, while you're ignoring you obligations and running from the law, and committing other assorted crimes, be sure to make those 50% gross payments every two weeks at one of the better ports, cause you wouldn't want to get in trouble now".
Know what I mean?
So write a grand adventure by all means, but for Traveller at least, make some effort to show that it is something extraordinary and the reasons for all those one in a millions landing at the feet of the PCs.
It's bad enough the whole thing turns on the impossible "you get in a bar fight on a backwater world and save the life of the Baron", of one of the bigger merchant operations in the Marches, who not having a ride and being grateful charters you on the spot to ferry him and his aide around for a while, in your clapped out little J1 merchant, with pitifully woeful defenses compared to his competitors, and a likelihood of misjumping him somewhere he'll never get back from.
I know, that's how adventures work. I've never liked it at all for Traveller. They're bad enough for D&D but at least there we know the PCs are the heroes, favored of the gods, with all the stars and moons aligned for luck. Their job IS adventure.
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far-trader
SOC-14 10K
There you go, I must have missed that when skimming through it and deciding I couldn't run it as it was and never looked at it again.
Still, that 70% struck me as odd at the time too. That's not the rule in the book so it's a special case from the start. And it doesn't really strike me as likely that the government would allow you to accrue that much "free time". What are they supposed to do for "consistent route service" for a year and a half? And what about the "subject to mobilization" clause? How are they supposed to find you if they let you go wandering that far afield and long?
Sorry, while the 80 weeks is probably chosen to make the "adventure" work, it's not gonna cut it for me.
And again, aren't we looking for typical operations in this thread, not PC rampancy?
EDIT: Yeah, I vaguely recall the "pay at any A, B or C port" bit too, but there's at least a few times they are hitting below that. And then you get into the whole what happens when you are late with a payment? What is the grace period? What are the penalties? How do they even know you're late or making the payments if you're off route?
Still, that 70% struck me as odd at the time too. That's not the rule in the book so it's a special case from the start. And it doesn't really strike me as likely that the government would allow you to accrue that much "free time". What are they supposed to do for "consistent route service" for a year and a half? And what about the "subject to mobilization" clause? How are they supposed to find you if they let you go wandering that far afield and long?
Sorry, while the 80 weeks is probably chosen to make the "adventure" work, it's not gonna cut it for me.
And again, aren't we looking for typical operations in this thread, not PC rampancy?
EDIT: Yeah, I vaguely recall the "pay at any A, B or C port" bit too, but there's at least a few times they are hitting below that. And then you get into the whole what happens when you are late with a payment? What is the grace period? What are the penalties? How do they even know you're late or making the payments if you're off route?
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Imperial Planetologist
SOC-12
Which is what I've done for thirty years.
Now I'm curious about what other referees do, in Actual Play.
Done both up to this point.
Let's try a different tack . . .
As far as canon goes, I'm most familiar with the discussion of subsidies in CT: subbies are paid for by planets or groups of planets to foster trade, provide consistent service between systems, and haul the mail (duplicating or supplementing IISS couriers to an unspecified degree). They may also serve as naval auxiliaries for planetary navies. TTB and Starter says that subbies are usually 600 dtons and up, leaving the fat trader out in the cold (and contradicting other canon sources).
So, do later editions include additional information on subsidies not covered in CT?
leo knight
SOC-12
Here's an idea I was toying with for my own ATU. Subsidized merchants are the initial colony ships bringing colonists to the world, and later resupply ships. A colony company is chartered, donors contribute funds, perhaps for a preferred spot in the colony, ships and equipment are procured. They are purpose built to bring colonists and supplies, but once the initial surge is over, the colony still retains the ships for various duties. I haven't worked out the details, it's still just a thought experiment.
Pay ahead?
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Ah, got it now, I'd read the first post differently.
Briefly:
How many? About 4 per world on the route. To allow one in port each week going each way and allow for those out of service for annual maintenance and on maneuvers.
(and I've always treated the 600ton minimum as a typo that should read 400ton minimum to keep the type R, it's the simplest solution)
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Simplest and best since the canonical subby is the 400t ship.
Here's a question.
(Perhaps a mild thread jack here, apologies if that happens)
I have heard the both T4
ocket Empires and GT:Far Trader have some detailed economic models in them. At least that's my understanding. I own PE, but it's in a box, in storage, 20 miles away, in the back, so...
I have never seen G:FT.
But my basic question, do either of these supplements (or anything else for that matter) address some mechanism to estimate the amount of Interstellar trade that occurs for a planet?
I guess regarding subsidized merchants, it's a bit of a catch-22. The intent, of course, being that smaller markets need to subsidize the traders in order to be serviced at all. But after some certain threshold, the market is large enough to where subsidized merchants are no longer necessary.
So, the fundamental question, I would think, is how much trade is simply necessary for a planet/system, and then how much of that trade is the market providing.
At the beginning, a colony say or even a small industrial or research concern, you could say it's all subsidized. If it's a corporate enterprise, it's simply the parent corp sending supplies to the outpost -- 100% subsidized, in fact it's not even "trade" at all, simply supply.
And then you go from there towards more open markets (modulo tariffs etc.) where you need no subsidized merchants at all (save for specialty goods maybe -- perhaps arms for the State).
Anyway, just curious if G:FT or PE address trade volume, and if from there you can guesstimate how much subsidized trade is required to maintain the population.
(Perhaps a mild thread jack here, apologies if that happens)
I have heard the both T4
ocket Empires and GT:Far Trader have some detailed economic models in them. At least that's my understanding. I own PE, but it's in a box, in storage, 20 miles away, in the back, so...I have never seen G:FT.
But my basic question, do either of these supplements (or anything else for that matter) address some mechanism to estimate the amount of Interstellar trade that occurs for a planet?
I guess regarding subsidized merchants, it's a bit of a catch-22. The intent, of course, being that smaller markets need to subsidize the traders in order to be serviced at all. But after some certain threshold, the market is large enough to where subsidized merchants are no longer necessary.
So, the fundamental question, I would think, is how much trade is simply necessary for a planet/system, and then how much of that trade is the market providing.
At the beginning, a colony say or even a small industrial or research concern, you could say it's all subsidized. If it's a corporate enterprise, it's simply the parent corp sending supplies to the outpost -- 100% subsidized, in fact it's not even "trade" at all, simply supply.
And then you go from there towards more open markets (modulo tariffs etc.) where you need no subsidized merchants at all (save for specialty goods maybe -- perhaps arms for the State).
Anyway, just curious if G:FT or PE address trade volume, and if from there you can guesstimate how much subsidized trade is required to maintain the population.
Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
PE tackles trade in a very abstract way - turn lengths for the game are 1 year, so it doesn't give figures that would be useful for computing individual ships. FT does give figures for gross cargo tonnage, number of passengers, etc, based on GWP. It's THE book for Traveller trade if you want detail.
I feel that subsidies were introduced into Traveller as a rationale to pay the mortgages, with little regard to whether planetary governments would actually need to subsidise merchant vessels, so the requirements are anybody's guess.
I feel that subsidies were introduced into Traveller as a rationale to pay the mortgages, with little regard to whether planetary governments would actually need to subsidise merchant vessels, so the requirements are anybody's guess.
I believe FT has very detailed rules for this.
I believe FT meets that threshold very quickly (I might be wrong).
FT (I think) assumes that interstellar trade and travel is common and highly profitable. A busy Imperium.
