• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

Armour Legality

Please do.
I thought I was keeping my real-world and in-universe opinions separate.

This is the crux: on some planets, "assault weapons" will be banned and will scare everyone ('cause they look scary and all) and cause panic and great difficulty in pursuing peaceful interpersonal or commercial relations; on others, they might very well go unremarked. A FGMP will get you attention almost anywhere. Wandering about a peaceful society dressed like a tank will get some attention - how much depends on your interpretation of local law levels and the situation: guarding a starship, maybe not a big deal; making a quick trip to the local equivalent of Long John Silver's, oh yeah. (And, people scared of weapons will probably be scared of armor - especially powered armor.) But definitely do make them deal with it if you think it's inappropriate in that situation.
The problem is, Traveller Law Levels were written on a somewhat more rational level, based on actual capabilities, not scary looks.
I do think the Imperium itself is fairly libertarian - it's not worth the Emporer's time to make and enforce such laws, only major interstellar issues. Unlike a planet-bound nation, even squad and platoon weapons are no threat to the Imperium. But the local law levels should have a wider variety to account for local prejudices - also permits and such. Is the planet "Handguns only", but anyone 5 and up can open-carry? Is anything man-portable legal, but only with a MCr 2 permit?
Additionally, local weapons/armor attitudes should be covered. As mentioned previously, open carry is legal insome states, and yet, even before all the recent paranoia and over-reaction, most citizens looked askance at it, and police tried hard to find an excuse to do something about it.

Starport guard: "Sir, ummm.... Do you understand that when you pass this gate some locals out there might consider this an armed invasion?"
Armored PC: "What do you mean? I always wear this - everywhere."
Starport guard, looking at him dubiously: "OK. Just so you know that if they arrest you we won't be allowed to stop them."
Armored PC, beginning to huff and puff: "Well, they wouldn't dare..."
Starport guard: "And, if you go blowing things up and stuff? Well, we're going to have to shoot you when you come back here. Nothing personal, it's just we have treaties and such to consider."
:rofl:
A bit nicer than I'd have said it.
 
Okay, they'd at least get the police, whomever the Starport uses, saying "Stop where you are and drop your weapons!"
Absolutely. Even a security alert. But only fascist regimes start shooting before even trying to tell armed people to disarm and surrender.

In CT's LBB4 there's an assault rifle. For my game the Auto Rifle, SMG and Gauss Rifle, plus other versions from the rest of the Travellers, qualify because of that. At least in my game.
Whether you say "auto-capable", military-grade, Class III, or other such terminology, yes, there's a number of weapons which qualify. But my point was that the real-world term "assault weapons" doesn't actually cover all Class III guns, and artificially includes other-wise legal weapons that just look scary. Using that term clouds the legality question in Traveller, because the Law Levels define weapons based on actual capability. If a given planet goes that route, it needs to be described in a note that certain weapons are more highly regulated than the book description based on cosmetic factors.

That's a good idea. If ever I run again I'm going to borrow that; thank you.
You're welcome. My players have heard of PGMPs and such; they've never seen the list they're on. It was fun picking the pictures to show the different races versions of each gun.
I assumed these were the versions made for sale in the Imperium, in standard Imp calibers or stand Imp power ratings. Conventional fixed cartridges are the standard for chemically-propelled slugs - binary, caseless, and electrothermal versions are local manufacture only. So a colonist who uses a 5X10mm pistol for varmints can buy his ammo at any starport anywhere. A security guard with a locally-made binary-propellant 9X23mm pistol can only count on being able to get bullets and propellant on his world and maybe some others nearby. This allows variation with standardization, and I can also use other pics for local guns. It also means an Aslan 6mm pistol sold in the Imperium is functionally identical to an Imperial 6mm pistol, with interchangeable ammo. But go to the Heirate, and your Aslan pistol bought in the Imperium uses a slightly different cartridge than the Aslan use at home.
Same idea for gyrojet/accelrator rounds, snub guns, etc, all the way up.

True; chivalric weapons and all that. But how many modern-day people would think of that? I'll bring it up to my fiancee and see what she says (she's running the Pathfinder game I'm in right now). And I've been thinking of having my fighter become a noble anyways... :devil:
Well, it depends on the milieu, but the high middle ages, when D&D tends to fit best, was a time of increased weapons control. Peasants with sword, except when the levy was called, was a cause for concern. Longbows were only controlled by cutting the thumbs off archers who misused them, because it took so long to become a serious enough archer to be a threat, but a crossbow with a few minutes training made anyone able to kill an armored knight, leading popes to condemn them and many countries to try to ban or otherwise control them.
 
So if I have that body sleeve and a snub pistol (semi-auto), I ought to be able to legally wear & carry in more places than the guy with the combat armor and assault rocket launcher.

Agree with you completely. (And thanks for the explanatory list.)

You're welcome. My players have heard of PGMPs and such; they've never seen the list they're on. It was fun picking the pictures to show the different races versions of each gun. [...] But go to the Heirate, and your Aslan pistol bought in the Imperium uses a slightly different cartridge than the Aslan use at home.
Same idea for gyrojet/accelrator rounds, snub guns, etc, all the way up.

I have an Aslan character, and have been trying to find pics of Aslan weapons (especially a highly-decorated hunting rifle) but they are few and far between. I'd also love to add pics to my weapons web page. What have you found that is available?

I thought I was keeping my real-world and in-universe opinions separate.

You have, and quite clearly & rationally (thank you!).

But the local law levels should have a wider variety to account for local prejudices - also permits and such. Is the planet "Handguns only", but anyone 5 and up can open-carry? Is anything man-portable legal, but only with a MCr 2 permit?
Additionally, local weapons/armor attitudes should be covered.

I noticed that one of the Mongoose adventures I bought - the one in Jewell subsector; *dang* can't remember it's name right now - actually has that differentiation for each planet you come to. That is, is says things like "local law level is XX, but in reality if you openly carry, you will receive negative reactions from the general public", and so on.

I always liked the tech and law level extensions that DGP added in "Grand Census"; it encourages you to make each world a different place than the others, and therefore more memorable.
 
I have an Aslan character, and have been trying to find pics of Aslan weapons (especially a highly-decorated hunting rifle) but they are few and far between. I'd also love to add pics to my weapons web page. What have you found that is available?
I did google image search and went to PMG threads looking for the pics I wanted. I also scanned the pics from the books.

You have, and quite clearly & rationally (thank you!).
Thanks, but I apparently didn't do well enough, or Fritz wouldn't have felt a need to chide me.

I noticed that one of the Mongoose adventures I bought - the one in Jewell subsector; *dang* can't remember it's name right now - actually has that differentiation for each planet you come to. That is, is says things like "local law level is XX, but in reality if you openly carry, you will receive negative reactions from the general public", and so on.
Exactly what I'm suggesting, although I don't have Mongoose books yet.

I always liked the tech and law level extensions that DGP added in "Grand Census"; it encourages you to make each world a different place than the others, and therefore more memorable.
That too, but verging more into attitudes.
 
I thought I was keeping my real-world and in-universe opinions separate.
Thanks, but I apparently didn't do well enough, or Fritz wouldn't have felt a need to chide me.

Not directed specifically at you, but lots of folks are treading the line. Just a friendly bark by the sheepdog to let you all know not to leave the flock. (That's why the scary bolded red letters.)

The problem is, Traveller Law Levels were written on a somewhat more rational level, based on actual capabilities, not scary looks.
True up to a point.

But the local law levels should have a wider variety to account for local prejudices - also permits and such. ...

Additionally, local weapons/armor attitudes should be covered.

The problem there is simply time/space. Even without taking into account the self-imposed limitation of the hexadecimal code, the variations are huge. I have been working on my ATU sector book (the first one), and writing up the interstellar polities. Even at that, I have over 30 pages of description of politics, legalities, societies, etc. That's for about 18 polities (and a few of those have very short descriptions, since they are closed societies). And, that's just for the interstellar part - not individual worlds. I cringe at the idea of doing the same for each and every system, much less planet. :toast:

But only fascist regimes start shooting before even trying to tell armed people to disarm and surrender.
We have those aplenty in Traveller. But, true, not all should be.

Conventional fixed cartridges are the standard for chemically-propelled slugs - binary, caseless, and electrothermal versions are local manufacture only.
Ammunition access is something that Traveller doesn't address, really, but your take is good. We had (because our referee at one point in college did take it into account) a character who reloaded in one game. I'm not sure why that isn't addressed more often.

"Where's the steward? I have a complaint about a smell in my room."
"Oh? Don't worry about that, it's just the air refresher struggling. It happens all the time around the 6th day of jump. As for Jim, you don't want to bother him right now."
"Why not? Isn't he supposed to be taking care of us?"
"Yes, but ... you see, he's reloading ammunition in his stateroom right now. It's ummm.... a bad idea to interrupt him."

it encourages you to make each world a different place than the others, and therefore more memorable.
Exactly. And, it's something you can't do with the UWP - only with a more extensive write-up that entails a lot of work, and a lot more pixel/ink space.
 
Not directed specifically at you, but lots of folks are treading the line. Just a friendly bark by the sheepdog to let you all know not to leave the flock. (That's why the scary bolded red letters.)
It can be hard to keep the line clear when trying to reason by analogy to the real world, so yeah, it got a bit blurry.

The problem there is simply time/space. Even without taking into account the self-imposed limitation of the hexadecimal code, the variations are huge. I have been working on my ATU sector book (the first one), and writing up the interstellar polities. Even at that, I have over 30 pages of description of politics, legalities, societies, etc. That's for about 18 polities (and a few of those have very short descriptions, since they are closed societies). And, that's just for the interstellar part - not individual worlds. I cringe at the idea of doing the same for each and every system, much less planet. :toast:
Which is why the UWP for most, but I thought we should be arguing the ways to make variations.

Ammunition access is something that Traveller doesn't address, really, but your take is good. We had (because our referee at one point in college did take it into account) a character who reloaded in one game. I'm not sure why that isn't addressed more often.
I have that skill. Most games don't.
 
Even at that, I have over 30 pages of description of politics, legalities, societies, etc. That's for about 18 polities (and a few of those have very short descriptions, since they are closed societies).

Just as a note, the Referee's Supplement to the sector book will give the info for those three closed societies and two adjacent clusters that are currently officially unexplored (though rumors exist). I expect those polities and clusters to take another 15 pages, at least. (That's not including the system listings and map revisions.) Though I still gripe about the grammar/spelling issues, I have a little more understanding of continuity issues and such in old Traveller material. :rolleyes:

Which is why the UWP for most, but I thought we should be arguing the ways to make variations.

Yep
 
As an aside I generally assign type of cartridge by TL, so they change, with no alteration in price/availability, like so:

TL 5-8 brass casing
TL 8-10 caseless
TL 11-13 caseless OR binary
TL 13+ = gauss always.

This does nothing in a weapon's performance vs. armor either, it's just my way of acknowledging TL change.
 
As an aside I generally assign type of cartridge by TL, so they change, with no alteration in price/availability, like so:

TL 5-8 brass casing
TL 8-10 caseless
TL 11-13 caseless OR binary
TL 13+ = gauss always.

This does nothing in a weapon's performance vs. armor either, it's just my way of acknowledging TL change.
I thought about that, but decided that a colonist with a TL 5 lever rifle wouldn't be comfortable trying to use TL 9 caseless rounds, even if it ought to work (not likely, IMO), and that that TL 9 version would have more muzzle energy, which might be unsafe for his rifle. So I assumed that the Imp standard version is the TL5 brass case version, available throughout the Imperium - at least in Starport extrality zones, if nowhere else. That meant the caseless or binary (or plastic Dardick trounds, if you remember them!) versions would be local manufacture.
So PCs revolving around a handful of worlds near each other might look for a TL 9 caseless 9mm Magnum, because they like the higher damage, but wide-ranging Travellers who rarely step foot on the same world in a year would buy the more widely available .357 magnum brass rounds to use in the same gun.
I went by the principle of lowest common denominator of user for the product. Caseless and binary would be driven by military and law enforcement needs in more sophisticated societies, and by the time those are as perfected as brass cartridges, gyrojet/accelerator weapons, snub guns, and gauss weapons will be overtaking the technology (I call the first 2 TLs gyrojet or rocket, and switch to accelerator for the more proven later TL versions).
I also really liked the 2300 AD FTE-10 - a honkin' huge gauss rifle, firing a big, relatively slow (in comparison to 4mm needles) round. The stock gauss rifle is based on the assault rifle concept. Civilian needs would mean semi-auto versions and varied calibers, not just high-cap, high-speed sliverguns. Gauss shotguns, big game hunting rifles/sniper rifles, and other LE applications, such as anti-civilian vehicle guns would proliferate within short order.
On a different note, I think the Imperium would mostly not be very concerned about modern assault rifles - too old and settled a tech. Weapon control advocates in the Imperium would look on those as the sort of thing to get around to banning some time after the sexier, more modern and potentially dangerous lasers and gauss weapons. The average citizen might intellectually realize they're all deadly, but who really thinks about muskets and arquebusses as threats today? Similarly, I think the real world, modern fetish for assault rifles, battle rifles, smgs, and similar auto-capable weapons will pass, and by the 58th century, an AR-15 or AK-47 will be thought of much as we now think of a percussion revolver or Quigley's Sharps rifle.
Thoughts?
 
I thought about that, but decided that a colonist with a TL 5 lever rifle wouldn't be comfortable trying to use TL 9 caseless rounds, even if it ought to work (not likely, IMO), and that that TL 9 version would have more muzzle energy, which might be unsafe for his rifle.

Weapons might be backwards compatible but not ammo. Sort of like a black powder '9mm standard' round becomes a smokeless powder '9mm special' round and a caseless '9mm magnum' round. A '9mm magnum' gun will fire '9mm special' and '9mm standard' rounds, but a '9mm standard' gun either will not chamber or comes with a warning not to use 'special' or 'magnum' rounds.

On the other hand, there is no reason that a revolver could not be designed for a TL 8 'magnum' cartridge and built at TL 4 ... it just requires a thicker barrel wall to withstand the greater pressure.
 
Weapons might be backwards compatible but not ammo. Sort of like a black powder '9mm standard' round becomes a smokeless powder '9mm special' round and a caseless '9mm magnum' round. A '9mm magnum' gun will fire '9mm special' and '9mm standard' rounds, but a '9mm standard' gun either will not chamber or comes with a warning not to use 'special' or 'magnum' rounds.

On the other hand, there is no reason that a revolver could not be designed for a TL 8 'magnum' cartridge and built at TL 4 ... it just requires a thicker barrel wall to withstand the greater pressure.

At Tech Level 4 you do not have the high-strength steel for the revolver cylinder that you have at Tech Level 8, nor the harder steels for the barrel. If you really wanted to do that, you would need to reduce the number of rounds in the cylinder to 4 or 5, and make sure that you can replace the barrel easily to compensate for the higher bore erosion from the much hotter powder that you are using.

As for caseless rounds, those would have to be fired from weapons designed to give a very high level of gas sealing, so you are not going to fire a caseless round, even if it would fit the chamber properly from a weapon design for standard brass-cased rounds.

And some Tech Level 4 breech-loading actions, such as the falling-block action on the US Army 1873 Springfield breech-loader, firing the government .45/70 round, are inherently weak and cannot fire safely a hotter loaded .45/70 round that could be fired from say a Ruger single-shot rifle.

For more discussion on firing modern hot loads from pre-1900 weapons, I would highly recommend consulting a good handloading manual.
 
At Tech Level 4 you do not have the high-strength steel for the revolver cylinder that you have at Tech Level 8, nor the harder steels for the barrel. If you really wanted to do that, you would need to reduce the number of rounds in the cylinder to 4 or 5, and make sure that you can replace the barrel easily to compensate for the higher bore erosion from the much hotter powder that you are using.

As for caseless rounds, those would have to be fired from weapons designed to give a very high level of gas sealing, so you are not going to fire a caseless round, even if it would fit the chamber properly from a weapon design for standard brass-cased rounds.

And some Tech Level 4 breech-loading actions, such as the falling-block action on the US Army 1873 Springfield breech-loader, firing the government .45/70 round, are inherently weak and cannot fire safely a hotter loaded .45/70 round that could be fired from say a Ruger single-shot rifle.

For more discussion on firing modern hot loads from pre-1900 weapons, I would highly recommend consulting a good handloading manual.
This is why, IMTU, the Imp law on it is that those standardized brass rounds match specs across TLs, across the Imperium. A TL5 manufacture 9mm mag brass round from the reign of Marava, bought on Sylea, matches a TL8 manufacture 9mm magnum round from the Solomani Rim War. If you make it to match the TL's capability, then it is no longer able to be sold as Imp Standard, and becomes Local goods. Similarly, I figure there's a market in faux-standard goods, which is where you get caseless rounds designed to fit and work in conventional firearms.
I also assume that the standard, since it retards development of the normal bullets, both boosts the local, wildcat rounds market, and the ensuing wildcat firearms market, and it also retards the devlopment. If a .475 is one of the most powerful rounds you can buy anywhere, how many times has a more powerful one been made locally? Since it doesn't make the cut to get standardized, inertia means people forget, and a few decades later, someone else does it again, never knowing about the previous ones.
I decided this was deliberate. Instead of banning powerful rounds, the Imperium simply set the standards list, and let market inertia and the failure to become a standard kill off the outliers, AS A MATTER OF POLICY.
Based on this, I also figure weapons made in local calibers can be considered one Law Level lower than the type should be WHEN taken anywhere it and it's ammunition is not available.
Sure, you can buy that Slovakian AK-knockoff in a wierd caliber. Sure, you can take it to Chicago. Good luck getting replacement ammo!
If enough people use that clause to change the availability of the ammo, then it's no longer one LL less.
 
This is why, IMTU, the Imp law on it is that those standardized brass rounds match specs across TLs, across the Imperium. A TL5 manufacture 9mm mag brass round from the reign of Marava, bought on Sylea, matches a TL8 manufacture 9mm magnum round from the Solomani Rim War. If you make it to match the TL's capability, then it is no longer able to be sold as Imp Standard, and becomes Local goods. Similarly, I figure there's a market in faux-standard goods, which is where you get caseless rounds designed to fit and work in conventional firearms.
I also assume that the standard, since it retards development of the normal bullets, both boosts the local, wildcat rounds market, and the ensuing wildcat firearms market, and it also retards the devlopment. If a .475 is one of the most powerful rounds you can buy anywhere, how many times has a more powerful one been made locally? Since it doesn't make the cut to get standardized, inertia means people forget, and a few decades later, someone else does it again, never knowing about the previous ones.
I decided this was deliberate. Instead of banning powerful rounds, the Imperium simply set the standards list, and let market inertia and the failure to become a standard kill off the outliers, AS A MATTER OF POLICY.
Based on this, I also figure weapons made in local calibers can be considered one Law Level lower than the type should be WHEN taken anywhere it and it's ammunition is not available.
Sure, you can buy that Slovakian AK-knockoff in a wierd caliber. Sure, you can take it to Chicago. Good luck getting replacement ammo!
If enough people use that clause to change the availability of the ammo, then it's no longer one LL less.

I'd say you are half right. I'd suppose that there are a number of "standard" rounds used in most weapons, particularly military grade ones where finding ammunition for them is fairly easy.
On the other hand, I'd also suppose that there is a vast array of "odd ball" types of ammunition and weapons both civilian and military available too. So, you might have some trouble getting ammunition for some weapons while for others the ammuntion is plentiful and cheap.

Of course when you hit about TL A or B getting custom rounds manufactured should be little problem with 3D manufacturing techniques:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_printing

I'm assuming something a bit more advanced than this but the idea is still valid. A gunsmith with such equipment could easily turn out whatever oddity of a round you needed.
 
IMTU, the standard rounds are:
  • Pistols, Carbines, and SMG's
    • 5.5mm
    • 7mm
    • 9mm
    • 9mm Magnum
    • 10mm Snub
    • 11mm
    • 13mm
  • Rifles
    • 5.5mm
    • 7mm
    • 9mm
    • 13mm
    • 20mm
  • Shotguns
    • 12mm
    • 18mm
  • 6mm Accellerator

All these are defined by Imperial Military standards setters.
 
I'd say you are half right. I'd suppose that there are a number of "standard" rounds used in most weapons, particularly military grade ones where finding ammunition for them is fairly easy.
On the other hand, I'd also suppose that there is a vast array of "odd ball" types of ammunition and weapons both civilian and military available too. So, you might have some trouble getting ammunition for some weapons while for others the ammuntion is plentiful and cheap.
Yes, exactly so, except that those wildcat rounds are only easily available in the nearby systems, depending on how much influence their homeworlds have over the region. So a Regina wildcat round might be available in much of the marches and maybe even Arden. But a round invented on Gampin might only be available there and on Newpenton.

That means PCs can't count on finding ammo for non-standard guns.

Of course when you hit about TL A or B getting custom rounds manufactured should be little problem with 3D manufacturing techniques:
I'm assuming something a bit more advanced than this but the idea is still valid. A gunsmith with such equipment could easily turn out whatever oddity of a round you needed.
Except that that gunsmith may have legal restrictions based on the law level of his world.
 
Just my thought for a corporate leaning 3I. TAS handles news and zone notices. SAAMI standardizes ammo. Somebody else makes sure cold sleep berths plug into all ships interchangeably. GURPS had a great container shipping ideal scheme, some group may do that for the empire.

Reason?

Lawsuits, convenience, conviction it is the right thing to do, corporate heads and head of SAAMI attended the same prep school league...
 
As for ammo (my favorite example in handguns)...

45 Colt (called Long Colt), a black powder pistol round usually used in cowboy shooting.

The 45 Schofield was slightly shorter, but used as the army round for a while (with trouble, because they still had the Colt pistols)

Then it was time for a more powerful versions with better, stronger, pistols. 454 Casull, slightly longer.

Then it was time for a very powerful pistol. Same round, longer still. 460 S&W.
 
Back
Top