• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

Tigress class dreadnaughts

However, something like the Bobcat presents the approach not covered in the Rebellion canon. We know Dulinor fights against superior forces, but is supposedly "building" ships in secret. Probably not at his two depots. We also see TNE "black" fleet vessels from DGP later show ship engineering still exists in the Black curtain.
If Dulinor was building capital ship killers it would explain his ability to hold off the forces of Lucan.

See that rebellion was thought (and played, if it was) with MT rules (whose ship combat rules have some subtle but important diferences), so applying the equation for CT rules would be missleading...

The J meson gun is a fine weapon against TL14 or lower opponents. Against TL15 factor 9 screens your chance of penetrating is too low.

Other factors (computer, ship's tactics, etc...) equal, they penerate the screens on a 9+ (so 10 in 36 possibilities), against the 7+ ( 21/36) for an N spinal meson gun and the 5+ (30/36) for a T one, So a T MG is trice as likely as a J one to overcome the screens...

OTOH, if you have over 3 times as many J MGs as the enemy has T ones, things become equal (probably easier for the J ones, as they are more likely to hit), while the smaller ships losing less in each penetrating hit...
 
See that rebellion was thought (and played, if it was) with MT rules (whose ship combat rules have some subtle but important diferences), so applying the equation for CT rules would be missleading...
I strongly doubt that the MT writers based the events of the Rebellion on an analysis of the MT combat rules rather than their narrative concerns. Indeed, I think the fact that they allowed the Aslan and the Vargr to be more than just minor nuisances shows that they put narrative concerns (in this case getting as many different factions as they could think of) over a realistic analysis of the combat rules.

Other factors (computer, ship's tactics, etc...) equal, they penerate the screens on a 9+ (so 10 in 36 possibilities), against the 7+ ( 21/36) for an N spinal meson gun and the 5+ (30/36) for a T one, So a T MG is trice as likely as a J one to overcome the screens...

OTOH, if you have over 3 times as many J MGs as the enemy has T ones, things become equal (probably easier for the J ones, as they are more likely to hit), while the smaller ships losing less in each penetrating hit...
I believe Mike is pointing out that TL14 ships will have factor 8 computers and thus get a -1 to hit and penetrate (do they get a -1 to penetration too? I forget).

Of course this assumes that the Zhodani are too stupid or too proud or too something to buy factor 9 computers from a TL15 Vargr world or that there is some mystical obstacle to mixing tech levels. (As opposed to a game rule with little or no relation to "reality" that prohibits such complications).

It also assumes that none of the Zhodani TL14 worlds are advanced in computer technology or that the Zhodani are unable to figure out how to crate factor 9 computers and transport them to other worlds with shipyards.

(Which raises another question. How come the Imperium isn't using factor 10 computers in their major combattants? They have several borderline TL16 worlds and, IIRC, at least one fully TL16 world (Vincennes).)


Hans
 
Would be better if you can get one under 75,000 dT, get an edge on size. The T-meson's overkill-grande.
Of course it is. But the HMS Proof of Concept was meant to prove the concept that you can get J3M6, a T-Gun and the same level of protection out of a much smaller ship than the Tigress.
 
I strongly doubt that the MT writers based the events of the Rebellion on an analysis of the MT combat rules rather than their narrative concerns.
I would hope, and do assume, so.

Of course this assumes that the Zhodani are too stupid or too proud or too something to buy factor 9 computers from a TL15 Vargr world or that there is some mystical obstacle to mixing tech levels. (As opposed to a game rule with little or no relation to "reality" that prohibits such complications).
Rules-wise (by TCS) it's allowed and quite easy.

(Which raises another question. How come the Imperium isn't using factor 10 computers in their major combattants? They have several borderline TL16 worlds and, IIRC, at least one fully TL16 world (Vincennes).)
The two (related) answers are:
- Because there are no factor 10 computers (or other equipment higher than TL 15, save a few black globes explicitly stated to be unavailable artifcats) in the HG rule.
- Because at the time Bk5 and Sup9 were written, TL 15 was the absolute technological maximum for any actively developing culture, including the Imperium. Consequently, TL 16 Imperial worlds did not exist.
 
Of course this assumes that the Zhodani are too stupid or too proud or too something to buy factor 9 computers from a TL15 Vargr world or that there is some mystical obstacle to mixing tech levels. (As opposed to a game rule with little or no relation to "reality" that prohibits such complications).
Rules-wise (by TCS) it's allowed and quite easy.
So let's put factor 9 computers in Zhodani cruisers and battleships.

The two (related) answers are:
- Because there are no factor 10 computers (or other equipment higher than TL 15, save a few black globes explicitly stated to be unavailable artifcats) in the HG rule.
- Because at the time Bk5 and Sup9 were written, TL 15 was the absolute technological maximum for any actively developing culture, including the Imperium. Consequently, TL 16 Imperial worlds did not exist.

As an aside, I would rather they hadn't been introduced and that TL16 was 200 years into the future. However, that's not a fight I'm prepared to pick.

My main point is that the Third Imperium setting has developed over 35 years and that it's counterproductive to treat rules written 35 years ago as ultimatively authoritative.

(Especially since they seem to be ignoring some pretty crucial points, such as the same shot that shatters the complete fuel tankage of a cruiser without vaporizing it will also shatter the total fuel tankage of ships ten times the size of the cruiser. Haven't any of the ship designers in Charted Space heard of compartementalization?) and the shot that has so big a chance of hitting a ship's computer on a small cruiser has the exact same chance of hitting the computer in a ship with ten times the bulk to shelter it.)


Hans
 
There are no TL 15 Vargr states who trade with the Zhodani. ;) :devil:

If there were then Vargr and Zhodani ships would have parity with the Imperial forces in FFW - which they don't.

If the Zhodani could equip their ships to TL15 then the Zhodani alien module would allow the Zhodani navy to be TL15, which it doesn't. It caps it at TL14.

There it is, in black and white, crystal clear, the TL of Zhodani ships is capped at TL14. The joy of research :)
 
Last edited:
So let's put factor 9 computers in Zhodani cruisers and battleships.
You could do that. But the basic problem remains, namely that the computer is very small, very cheap single piece of equipment that affects a ship's performance more drastically than all other components' TL differences combined.
Not only does this not make too much sense from the viewpoint of simulationism, it also makes for a rather pointless game mechanic. On all but the smallest craft (which are irrelevant under HG rules), installing a computer smaller than the maximum allowed by TL is simply not an option. There is no trade off, nothing to be gained, in short, no choice.
For my current HG revamp, I'm still pondering whether even to include the "computer" at all or subsume it into the bridge and base to hit bonuses directly on relative TLs (while also bringing them down a bit to allow TL 12-13 forces to pose at least a bit of a credible threat.)

As an aside, I would rather they hadn't been introduced and that TL16 was 200 years into the future. However, that's not a fight I'm prepared to pick.
Well, Mongoose dialled it back a little by categorically stating that Vincennes is the only TL 16 world in the Imperium, thus eliminating the dozens of such worlds DGP sprinkled about the place. This has its own problems and doesn't make much sense to me, but I guess someone lobbied to keep the high tech Vincennes.

My main point is that the Third Imperium setting has developed over 35 years and that it's counterproductive to treat rules written 35 years ago as ultimatively authoritative.
Treating the HG rules as authoritative was counterproductive at the time they were written, IMHO...
 
There are no TL 15 Vargr states who trade with the Zhodani.
But it's very strange that there aren't. So strange that it might even deserve a retcon. ;)

If there were then Vargr and Zhodani ships would have parity with the Imperial forces in FFW - which they don't.
How do you know that? The level of abstraction in FFW is the squadron level. I can't recall what disadvantages the Zhodani squadrons operate under, but whatever it is, it could be due to operating with six-ship squadrons instead of eight-ship squadrons or some other factor. And to most of the ships being TL14even if they had TL15 computers, of course.

If the Zhodani could equip their ships to TL15 then the Zhodani alien module would allow the Zhodani navy to be TL15, which it doesn't. It caps it at TL14.
A few TL15 high-population Vargr worlds wouldn't have the capacity to furnish the Consulate with multiple fleets worth of fully TL15 cruisers and battleships. But they would have the capacity to furnish them with multiple fleets worth of factor 9 computers. And it would be well worth the Zhodani's while to buy them even at a premium.

That said, I've just had a look through the Gvurrdon data for T5 and sadly it appears that Marc Miller has decided to retcon the Vargr down to TL14. At least, unless my memory is playing me false, Gvurrdon used to have several TL15 high-population worlds1 that are now gone.
1 And one low-population TL16 world, the erasure of which I throughly approve... of? :D


Hans
 
The J meson gun is a fine weapon against TL14 or lower opponents. Against TL15 factor 9 screens your chance of penetrating is too low.
...

"Too low?" It's a 9+, which as McPerth pointed out is 10 in 36 shots, i.e a squadron of 10 penetrate with 3.33 shots for every shot a Tigress penetrates with. That's not too low in my book.

However, neither is it ideal. As Tobias aimed for the smallest unit with a T, I aimed for a simple but dramatic 1/10 slice, for which the J was optimal for it's size and which made the point about Tigress quite nicely. However, the N is indeed a much better option because it doesn't take much more in space or power and delivers a big improvement for that. I can do a 65,000 dT design around that, which means only about 8 N-meson ships to 10 J-meson light cruisers, but since the penetration rate's about double, they put up a better fight. Assuming they fight each other, and factoring in the hull, a squadron of 10 J's is turning out 0.557 hits per turn, while the 8 N's are turning out 1.19. Nasty fight, but the N's win the engagement with 2-3 ships left. Not as good with the marines or fighters, but the difference is acceptable, and they're a wee bit better on missile defense and secondary offense. They're nastier against a Tigress, landing 5.6 mesons to 1 - well, closer to 5.1 to 1 when you weight for cost, but still clearly better.

An interesting aside: neither Tigress nor these derivative designs have sufficient craft to refuel the ship - they scoop themselves, or they need fuelers attached to the squadron.

Ship: Bigger Boot (please pardon the Sponge Bob reference)
Type: Armored Cruiser
Tech Level: 15

USP CA-P136AJZ-F99909-959N9-3 MCr 64,679.680 65 KTons
Bat Bear..............9.....1.6711X Crew: 741
Bat.....................C.....1.8911Y TL: 15

Cargo: 286; Crew Sections: 65 of 12; Fuel: 26,000; EP: 6,500; Agility: 6; Shipboard Security Detail: 65; Marines: 88
Craft: 20 x 10T Escort fighters, 10 x 10T Ground Support Fighters, 1 x 50T Naval Cutter, 8 x 15T Marine Grav APCs, 1 x 10T Launch Tube
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Substitutions: X = 32, Y = 40, Z = 65

Architects Fee: MCr 643.288 Cost in Quantity: MCr 51,813.920


Detailed Description
(High Guard Design)

HULL
65,000.000 tons standard, 910,000.000 cubic meters, Needle/Wedge Configuration

CREW
60 Officers, 563 Ratings, 30 Pilots, 88 Marines

Book 5 Crew Breakdown
Command section: 7 officers and 26 ratings; Engineering section: 21 officers and 181 ratings; Gunnery section: 15 officers and 127 ratings; Flight section: 2 officers, 30 pilots and 45 ratings; Service section: 13 officers and 117 ratings, 65 security troops; Medical Section: 2 officers and 2 ratings; Marines: 88

ENGINEERING
Jump-3, 6G Maneuver, Power plant-10, 6,500.000 EP, Agility 6

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/9fib Computer

HARDPOINTS
Spinal Mount, 2 100-ton bays, 40 50-ton bays, 209 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
Meson Gun Spinal Mount (Factor-N), 1 100-ton Particle Accelerator Bay (Factor-9), 40 50-ton Missile Bays (Factor-9), 80 Triple Beam Laser Turrets organized into 8 Batteries (Factor-9), 9 Single Fusion Gun Turrets organized into 9 Batteries (Factor-5)

DEFENCES
1 100-ton Repulsor Bay (Factor-9), 120 Triple Sandcaster Turrets organized into 12 Batteries (Factor-9), Nuclear Damper (Factor-9), Meson Screen (Factor-9), Armored Hull (Factor-15)

CRAFT
20 10.000 ton Escort fighters (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 9.484), 10 10.000 ton Ground Support Fighters (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 9.784), 1 50.000 ton Naval Cutter (Crew of 2, Cost of MCr 18.480), 8 15.000 ton Marine Grav APCs (Crew of 0, Cost of MCr 5.610), 1 10.000 ton Launch Tube

FUEL
26,000 Tons Fuel (3 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
374 Staterooms, 286 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 64,972.088 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 643.288), MCr 51,463.040 in Quantity, plus MCr 350.880 of Carried Craft

CONSTRUCTION TIME
193 Weeks Singly, 154 Weeks in Quantity
 
I go for the factor "N" meson spinal in cruisers (heavy), though a mix of "J" and "N" in battle riders, depending if a J1 capability is felt to be needed. "J" meson spinals still pack a punch.:omega:

I also use "J"s in light cruisers. Pretty useless in an HG or TCS battle, but fun to have a few around.:cool:
 
My main point is that the Third Imperium setting has developed over 35 years and that it's counterproductive to treat rules written 35 years ago as ultimatively authoritative. Hans

Excellent point Hans,

I doubt if anyone is using WRG ancient rules 5th edition still, which I believe came out around the same time as classic traveller.

One of the good things Mongoose have done is give pride of place back to the battleship, I wargamed a Florinai versus Aslan confrontation a few years ago and the Floriani, despite being hugely outnumbered blew the Aslan to pieces.

Kind Regards

David
 
I strongly doubt that the MT writers based the events of the Rebellion on an analysis of the MT combat rules rather than their narrative concerns. Indeed, I think the fact that they allowed the Aslan and the Vargr to be more than just minor nuisances shows that they put narrative concerns (in this case getting as many different factions as they could think of) over a realistic analysis of the combat rules.

I fully agree with you in that point (as pointed in many a thread), but the differences among both combat (and design, as it affects combat) rules sets are also someting to be taken into account...

I believe Mike is pointing out that TL14 ships will have factor 8 computers and thus get a -1 to hit and penetrate (do they get a -1 to penetration too? I forget).

It's not just this reflexive +/-1 due to computer size (yes, it also was applied to penetrate defenses, HG, page 45 left column), is also the larger PP TL14 ships need, the lower rated Meson Screens, etc...

See that a J rated Meson Spinal penetrates a factor 6 Meson screen on a 8+, add to that the +1 and it will penetrate the defenses more often tan not, while the best TL 14 meson gun (S rated) will penetrate a factor 9 meson screen on a 6+, which with the -1 for computer size makes it as likely to overcome it as the told Meson J vs Meson creen 6 (though the factor S will penetrate the config 1 on a 4+, while the J meson will need a 5+, once the relative computer size is applied).

Of course this assumes that the Zhodani are too stupid or too proud or too something to buy factor 9 computers from a TL15 Vargr world or that there is some mystical obstacle to mixing tech levels. (As opposed to a game rule with little or no relation to "reality" that prohibits such complications).

It also assumes that none of the Zhodani TL14 worlds are advanced in computer technology or that the Zhodani are unable to figure out how to crate factor 9 computers and transport them to other worlds with shipyards.

HG, page 20, last sentence of the firts paragraph under Technological level:

Equipemente and components of a starship may1 always be equal to or less than the ship's tech level

Note 1: I guess it should say "must" instead of "may", as otherwise, unless my English is failing me, the sentence has not much sense. Not seen it in the errata.

To me, that means that no component may be of higher TL than the overall TL of the starship. Probably it's not as easy as to replace the core computer, but also other electronisc need to be changed, etc., so that you must refit the overall TL before installing it.
 
Rules for refitting are in TCS, not in HG2.

But can you refit a ship on a way it could not be built?

My guess is that any refitting must leave the ship on a way it could have been built (albeit probably inefficient in some ways, as having lower armor TL than the refited ship if you upgrade the overall TL), and, if so, the quoted rule still applies.
 
Dagrill, could you elaborate? what do you think in the MgT rules makes battleships more effective?

I cannot talk for him, but I guess the fact of using hull/structure hits is a major part on it, as a Battleship can sustain more damage than a Cruiser.

EDIT: Also, the barrage rules make ships firing more weapons more effective in firing, so a barrage from a BB with 100 weapons is more likely to do damage than the fire of 10 ships with 10 weapons each (mostly if they have to overcome defenses)...
 
Last edited:
But can you refit a ship on a way it could not be built?

My guess is that any refitting must leave the ship on a way it could have been built (albeit probably inefficient in some ways, as having lower armor TL than the refited ship if you upgrade the overall TL), and, if so, the quoted rule still applies.

There is an interesting "cheat" since bay weapons can be replaced by ANY other. For example: remove 100dt missile launchers and replace with TWO 50dt missile launchers.:devil: (I have MIXED feelings about this!)
 
fair enough. I havn't sat down and read the rules for any other ruleset than MgT, so i didn't know that wasn't part of the CT ruleset.

Also, form what i understand, the primary cause of a ship being put out of action in HG2 was fuel tank shattered (?). a quick look at the MGT HG rules show a captail ship can only loose up to 30% (1d6x5%) of fuel in a single hit. that would signifcantly increase the survivability of a ship.
 
There is an interesting "cheat" since bay weapons can be replaced by ANY other. For example: remove 100dt missile launchers and replace with TWO 50dt missile launchers.:devil: (I have MIXED feelings about this!)

In any case, I guess you cannot exceed the máximum bays by building them as 100 dtons and them refitting them to 50 dton ones.

To allow a 10 kdton ship with 10 100 dton bays to replace them for 20 50 dton bays while refitting would be an example of what I said as refitting into something you cannot build, and, as such, I see it as really chating, as you say. If a ship can only have one bay per 1000 dton, I would not allow (as referee) to overcome this limit in refitting (of course, YMMV, but I still see it as cheating).
 
Back
Top