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Tigress class dreadnaughts

You're rigth about our assumption of it havin Meson Screen 9. In fact, I don't have access to Sup9 (I read it time ago) and I based most of my posts in the variant presented by Carlobrand in post 131, not even realizing that on it the Tigress does not have Meson Screen at all (I guess a typo).
It does have a Meson Screen, factor 7. I was about to claim that it should be trivial to upgrade it to factor 9, but on closer examination, the Tigress may not have enough EP remaining for that, even if one removed all the energy-using weaponry except the spinal mount.

P.S.: Oh, you mean Carlobrand's version? Yeah, I think he just forgot to add the meson screen. Still, with the EP it doesn't work out to more than factor 7.
 
My numbers earlier were based on a meson screen 7.

I can not explain why it hasn't got a meson screen 9 instead of a few fighter squadrons.
 
You're rigth about our assumption of it havin Meson Screen 9. In fact, I don't have access to Sup9 (I read it time ago) and I based most of my posts in the variant presented by Carlobrand in post 131, not even realizing that on it the Tigress does not have Meson Screen at all (I guess a typo). ...

Wait, what?

Dagnabit! @%#&@$#@#^%! :mad: If I had half a brain, I'd be twice as smart as I am now. Jeesh!

(Yes, it's supposed to have a Factor 7 meson screen. It needs 2000 EP for a factor 9, has only 278 unused. Spends 300 EP on lasers, another 400 on fusion guns, another 500 on particle beams, so power available only for a factor 8 unless you cut agility. However, a factor 8 gives the same rolls against most Zho spinals - the G light cruiser spinal and the Q and S dreadnought spinals. The H and M cruiser spinals get an edge.)

Ship: Dn Tigress - S9-Revised
Type: Dreadnought
Architect: Supplement 9
Tech Level: 15

USP BB-V5368JZ-F97909-967T9-Y MCr 464,913.600 500 KTons
Bat Bear..............5.....B.5R51X Crew: 4915
Bat.....................A....N.AWA1V TL: 15

Cargo: 10,157; Crew Sections: 500 of 10; Fuel: 190,000; EP: 40,000; Agility: 6; Shipboard Security Detail: 500
Craft: 300 x 50T Heavy fighters, 3 x 50T Launch Tubes
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Substitutions: V = 430 W = 50 X = 215 Y = 30 Z = 500

Architects Fee: MCr 4,337.616 Cost in Quantity: MCr 378,161.280

Detailed Description
(High Guard Design)

HULL
500,000.000 tons standard, 7,000,000.000 cubic meters, Sphere Configuration

CREW
388 Officers, 4227 Ratings, 300 Pilots

Book 5 Crew Breakdown
Command section: 25 officers and 225 ratings; Engineering section: 145 officers and 1305 ratings; Gunnery section: 107 officers and 956 ratings; Flight section: 4 officers, 300 pilots and 327 ratings; Service section: 100 officers and 900 ratings, 500 security troops; Medical Section: 7 officers and 14 ratings
ENGINEERING
Jump-3, 6G Manuever, Power plant-8, 40,000.000 EP, Agility 6

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/9fib Computer

HARDPOINTS
Spinal Mount, 22 100-ton bays, 430 50-ton bays, 400 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
Meson Gun Spinal Mount (Factor-T), 430 50-ton Missile Bays (Factor-9), 100 Triple Beam Laser Turrets organised into 10 Batteries (Factor-9), 100 Dual Fusion Gun Turrets organised into 50 Batteries (Factor-6), 100 Particle Accelerator Turrets organised into 10 Batteries (Factor-7)

DEFENCES
22 100-ton Repulsor Bays (Factor-9), 100 Triple Sandcaster Turrets organised into 10 Batteries (Factor-9), Nuclear Damper (Factor-9), Meson Screen (Factor-7), Armoured Hull (Factor-15)

CRAFT
300 50.000 ton Heavy fighters (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 103.840), 3 50.000 ton Launch Tubes

FUEL
190,000 Tons Fuel (3 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
2,460.5 Staterooms, 10,157 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 438,099.216 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 4,337.616), MCr 347,009.280 in Quantity, plus MCr 31,152.000 of Carried Craft

CONSTRUCTION TIME
228 Weeks Singly, 182 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
The Supplement-9 Tigress dreadnought, revised to J3 per the ship code.
 
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It doesn't say that anywhere in FFW to my knowledge. ...

Well, no, it doesn't. It does offer a squadron quality optional rule that says Imperial standard squadrons get a +1 bonus when firing on Zho standard squadrons (which are the Zhodani ships), implying a technological edge. Also says Imperial standard gets a +2 bonus against Zho low (which are the Vargr and Swordie ships and the Zho colonial fleet). Ergo, Zho ships are inferior to Imp ships but not as inferior as Vargr, Swordie and Zho colonial ships. But, no specifics - although the Zho regular army's running predominantly at TL14, none higher, about 10% of them lower. It's safe to conclude the Zho fleet is at TL14 if the bulk of their army's at TL 14 and they're not running equal to the TL15 Imperial fleet, no?
 
The Tigress, at TL15 and 500kdt, needs 1000EP per meson screen factor.

It needs a Power Plant 9.

It's got 10,000 dT to spare, 2%, so that's within reach. Alternatively, be satisfied with a Factor-8 meson screen, tap the 278 unused EP and mine the beam weapons and particle beams for the remaining 722 points. The ship's not going to suffer greatly if its particle beam or fusion gun batteries are significantly reduced.
 
It's safe to conclude the Zho fleet is at TL14 if the bulk of their army's at TL 14 and they're not running equal to the TL15 Imperial fleet, no?
Actually, I would agree that most of the Zhodani fleet would still be at TL 14. The dead-easy refitting of higher TL computers (and the all-important nature of this ridiculously cheap single component of the ship) is just another idiosyncracy of the game that makes little sense.

The mention of possible TL 15 opponents was just meant to meet the argument that the Tigress being an absymal, wasteful design is perfectly sensible because (if given massive other advantages) it can beat lower TL opponents which the Imperial Navy only ever deals with.

P.S.: By the way, if extrapolating from HG rules, the FFW bonus is far too lenient. A TL 14 fleet, given numerical superiority and possibly better design concepts, does have a chance against TL 15 opponents. A TL 12 fleet, as the Sword Worlds can ostensibly muster at best, does not.
Then again, I'd rather redesign the HG rules to fit FFW - and to produce a playable game - than vice versa.
 
Aaaaanyway. As I said earlier: Even if you insist on near-maximum protection J3M6 Dreadnoughts, the Tigress is a white elephant. A more sensible example would probably look as follows:

********************************************************************
Ship: HMS Proof of Concept
Class: HMS Proof of Concept
Type: Battleship
Architect: Tobias
Tech Level: 15

USP
BB-R1369J4-E99909-997T9-0 MCr 138,602.560 150 KTons
Bat Bear E 9 6111Y Crew: 1531
Bat L D 8111Z TL: 15

Cargo: 2,230.000 Frozen Watch Emergency Low: 100 Fuel: 58,500.000 EP: 13,500.000 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail: 150 Marines: 200
Craft: 10 x 30T Ship's Boat
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/9fib Computer 1 x Factor 9 Nuclear Damper 1 x Factor 9 Meson Screen
Substitutions: Y = 70 Z = 100

Architects Fee: MCr 1,384.026 Cost in Quantity: MCr 110,922.048


Detailed Description

HULL
150,000.000 tons standard, 2,100,000.000 cubic meters, Needle/Wedge Configuration

CREW
118 Officers, 1213 Ratings, 200 Marines

ENGINEERING
Jump-3, 6G Manuever, Power plant-9, 13,500.000 EP, Agility 6

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/9fib Computer
1 Model/9fib Backup Computer

HARDPOINTS
Spinal Mount, 13 100-ton bays, 100 50-ton bays, 300 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
Meson Gun Spinal Mount (Factor-T), 100 50-ton Missile Bays (Factor-9), 80 Triple Beam Laser Turrets organised into 8 Batteries (Factor-9), 10 Dual Fusion Gun Turrets organised into 1 Battery (Factor-9), 10 Particle Accelerator Turrets organised into 1 Battery (Factor-7)

DEFENCES
13 100-ton Repulsor Bays (Factor-9), 200 Triple Sandcaster Turrets organised into 20 Batteries (Factor-9), Nuclear Damper (Factor-9), Meson Screen (Factor-9), Armoured Hull (Factor-14)
1 Nuclear Damper Backup (Factor-9), 1 Meson Screen Backup (Factor-9)

CRAFT
10 30.000 ton Ship's Boats (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 20.000)

FUEL
58,500.000 Tons Fuel (3 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
800.0 Staterooms, 800 Low Berths, 100 Emergency Low Berths, 2,230.000 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 139,786.586 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 1,384.026), MCr 110,722.048 in Quantity, plus MCr 200.000 of Carried Craft

CONSTRUCTION TIME
207 Weeks Singly, 166 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
******************************************************************

As you can see, this displaces and costs less than one third of a Tigress. Three such vessels have almost exactly as many bearing missile batteries as a Tigress, and three times as many spinals (duh!)
The armor factor is 1 lower, which is almost wholly irrelevant, but these ships have factor 9 meson screens as well as such niceties as backup systems, a frozen watch and troops. The only thing they lack are the useless fighters, but if you absolutely insist on them, I'm reasonably sure that for the tonnage and money left over, you could throw in a decent dedicated fighter carrier.
 
Aaaaanyway. As I said earlier: Even if you insist on near-maximum protection J3M6 Dreadnoughts, the Tigress is a white elephant. A more sensible example would probably look as follows:

********************************************************************
Ship: HMS Proof of Concept
Class: HMS Proof of Concept
Type: Battleship
Architect: Tobias
Tech Level: 15

USP
BB-R1369J4-E99909-997T9-0 MCr 138,602.560 150 KTons
Bat Bear E 9 6111Y Crew: 1531
Bat L D 8111Z TL: 15

Cargo: 2,230.000 Frozen Watch Emergency Low: 100 Fuel: 58,500.000 EP:


...

As you can see, this displaces and costs less than one third of a Tigress. Three such vessels have almost exactly as many bearing missile batteries as a Tigress, and three times as many spinals (duh!)
The armor factor is 1 lower, which is almost wholly irrelevant, but these ships have factor 9 meson screens as well as such niceties as backup systems, a frozen watch and troops. The only thing they lack are the useless fighters, but if you absolutely insist on them, I'm reasonably sure that for the tonnage and money left over, you could throw in a decent dedicated fighter carrier.

I mentioned dumping some fighters a few pages ago. IYTU, Which superpower is building a TL15 challenge to the 3I Tigress?
 
The Danish names work really well... evocative of words like "Jaeger". The Germans also are brilliant at concocting words out of several.

Raumtiger (Spacetiger)
Sturmtiger
Jagdtiger
Jagdpanther

Maybe the word tiger is more of a euphemism in the architect's mind, a word that we have since lost forgotten the origins of it meaning, in which case any type of double-barrel name could be applied.

Cold Tiger
Fast Tiger
Gold Tiger

I think also history gives us some clues, maybe the Tigress II is less basic in shape, slightly less of a sphere.
 
On second thought, the class is named TigRESS.

Tigress
Lioness
Pantheress
Vixen
Queen Bee
Night Mare
Dragoness
She-Dragon
You're free to make up your own list of names, but as far as I am concerned, Tigress class dreadnaughts are named after members of the genus panthera and alien species with a strong resemblance to such members.


Hans
 
Aaaaanyway. As I said earlier: Even if you insist on near-maximum protection J3M6 Dreadnoughts, the Tigress is a white elephant. A more sensible example would probably look as follows: ...

Would be better if you can get one under 75,000 dT, get an edge on size. The T-meson's overkill-grande. An N gets you 13 extra damage rolls with almost an 81% chance of shattering the fuel tanks with at least one of those rolls. Only 2/3 as effective penetrating the best meson screens, but you should be able to manage twice as many ships as your 150 KdT model and there'll be more "baskets" to spread your "eggs" around in, so you're ahead. You ought to be quite effective with something under 75KdT and an N spinal. For that matter, the humble light cruiser's J spinal gets you almost a 70% chance of a fuel-tank-shattered result - about half as effective as the T in penetration, but again more and smaller ships.

I offer Bobcat, a 50,000 dT cruiser designed to be a mini-Tigress; ten of them have the same missile firepower and almost the same secondary weapon firepower. A wee bit more expensive at 9.5 for 1 Tigress, but definitely able to stand the fight better. Individually more vulnerable to large numbers of missiles but also presenting a smaller target, evading 14% more missiles than the Tigress can. Carries two platoons of Marines in 8 (Striker) Marine APCs, supported by 10 ground-support fighters (a variant of the Armadillo armored light fighter mounting a plasma gun, sandcaster and a bomb bay for ground combat). Also carries 20 long range escort fighters (Why? Because the fighter's really only effective as a ground attack and commerce-raiding platform, and the 10 dT's very effective in both roles.)

(I did not offer backups as I feel the odds of being crippled by a fuel hit outweigh any benefit a backup can offer. However, there are 407 tons of space available if one wants a backup of something.)

A squadron of 10 Bobcats can put 2 battalions of APC-mounted marines aground, backed by an orbital missile battery capable of putting out 33,000 missiles plus ten meson guns in a salvo, plus 100 ground-support fighters as heavily armed and armored as any tank, plus 200 missile-armed light fighters for additional direct support.

Ship: Bobcat
Type: Armored Cruiser
Tech Level: 15

USP CA-P136AJZ-F99909-956J9-3 MCr 49,751.840 50 KTons
Bat Bear..............9.....1.1711X Crew: 608
Bat.....................C.....1.1911Y TL: 15

Cargo: 407; Crew Sections: 50 of 13; Fuel: 20,000; EP: 5,000; Agility: 6; Shipboard Security Detail: 50; Marines: 88
Craft: 20 x 10T Escort fighters, 10 x 10T Ground Support Fighters, 1 x 50T Naval Cutter, 8 x 15T Marine Grav APCs, 1 x 10T Launch Tube
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Substitutions: X = 26, Y = 33, Z = 50

Architects Fee: MCr 494.010 Cost in Quantity: MCr 39,871.648


Detailed Description
(High Guard Design)

HULL
50,000.000 tons standard, 700,000.000 cubic meters, Needle/Wedge Configuration

CREW
47 Officers, 443 Ratings, 30 Pilots, 88 Marines

Book 5 Crew Breakdown
Command section: 7 officers and 18 ratings; Engineering section: 16 officers and 139 ratings; Gunnery section: 11 officers and 99 ratings; Flight section: 2 officers, 30 pilots and 45 ratings; Service section: 10 officers and 90 ratings, 50 security troops; Medical Section: 1 officers and 2 ratings; Marines: 88

ENGINEERING
Jump-3, 6G Maneuver, Power plant-10, 5,000.000 EP, Agility 6

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/9fib Computer

HARDPOINTS
Spinal Mount, 1 100-ton bay, 33 50-ton bays, 147 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
Meson Gun Spinal Mount (Factor-J), 33 50-ton Missile Bays (Factor-9), 10 Triple Beam Laser Turrets organized into 1 Battery (Factor-9), 9 Single Fusion Gun Turrets organized into 9 Batteries (Factor-5), 8 Particle Accelerator Turrets organized into 1 Battery (Factor-6)

DEFENCES
1 100-ton Repulsor Bay (Factor-9), 120 Triple Sandcaster Turrets organized into 12 Batteries (Factor-9), Nuclear Damper (Factor-9), Meson Screen (Factor-9), Armored Hull (Factor-15)

CRAFT
20 10.000 ton Escort fighters (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 9.484),
10 10.000 ton Ground Support Fighters (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 9.784),
1 50.000 ton Naval Cutter (Crew of 2, Cost of MCr 18.480),
8 15.000 ton Marine Grav APCs (Crew of 0, Cost of MCr 5.610),
1 10.000 ton Launch Tube

FUEL
20,000 Tons Fuel (3 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
307.5 Staterooms, 407 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 49,894.970 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 494.010), MCr 39,520.768 in Quantity, plus MCr 350.880 of Carried Craft

CONSTRUCTION TIME
188 Weeks Singly, 150 Weeks in Quantity
 
I offer Bobcat, a 50,000 dT cruiser designed to be a mini-Tigress; ten of them have the same missile firepower and almost the same secondary weapon firepower. A wee bit more expensive at 9.5 for 1 Tigress, but definitely able to stand the fight better. Individually more vulnerable to large numbers of missiles but also presenting a smaller target, evading 14% more missiles than the Tigress can. Carries two platoons of Marines in 8 (Striker) Marine APCs, supported by 10 ground-support fighters (a variant of the Armadillo armored light fighter mounting a plasma gun, sandcaster and a bomb bay for ground combat). Also carries 20 long range escort fighters (Why? Because the fighter's really only effective as a ground attack and commerce-raiding platform, and the 10 dT's very effective in both roles.)

(I did not offer backups as I feel the odds of being crippled by a fuel hit outweigh any benefit a backup can offer. However, there are 407 tons of space available if one wants a backup of something.)

A squadron of 10 Bobcats can put 2 battalions of APC-mounted marines aground, backed by an orbital missile battery capable of putting out 33,000 missiles plus ten meson guns in a salvo, plus 100 ground-support fighters as heavily armed and armored as any tank, plus 200 missile-armed light fighters for additional direct support.

Ship: Bobcat
Type: Armored Cruiser
Tech Level: 15

USP CA-P136AJZ-F99909-956J9-3 MCr 49,751.840 50 KTons
Bat Bear..............9.....1.1711X Crew: 608
Bat.....................C.....1.1911Y TL: 15
...

Interesting option. We've known for 30 years that we need home rules in the "big" ship universe to keep the canon fleets operating.

However, something like the Bobcat presents the approach not covered in the Rebellion canon. We know Dulinor fights against superior forces, but is supposedly "building" ships in secret. Probably not at his two depots. We also see TNE "black" fleet vessels from DGP later show ship engineering still exists in the Black curtain.
If Dulinor was building capital ship killers it would explain his ability to hold off the forces of Lucan.
 
The J meson gun is a fine weapon against TL14 or lower opponents. Against TL15 factor 9 screens your chance of penetrating is too low.

IMTU the rebuilding IN of post FFW is investing in 50000-70000t J6 pocket battleships, with N,R or T spinals.

They have the facility to accept drop tanks, but don't routinely carry them. They have enough internal fuel for jump2. They can be ferried around by the 1000000t tenders the IN has used for years, and are supported by drop tank tenders.
 
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