Tigress class dreadnaughts

[McPerth]

Crew again...

I know I'm becoming a pest insisting on it, but, once again, I believe the key factor here is crew quality.

As rare as they might be, I guess there are at least 8 officers with Ship Tactics 5 in and 8 more with pilot 5 the Spindward Marches, and where better to put them than on the Tigress, where their effect is maximized?

for the 20 Zho cruisers vs the Tigress, see that those cruisers are unlike to be led by such rare officers, so we can asume their captains having Ship Tactics at 2- (so no mosifiers), while their pilots (Pilot skill being more common) can give them a +1 to agility (pilot 3-4).

If so, and keeping in mind the TL difference, the Tigress would have a +/- 3 reflective modifier for computer (modified by Ship Tactics) difference and a -2 to be hit for agility, while the Zho Cruisers would have a -1 to be hit for the pilots.

So, for messon fire, the Zho's will need (assuming G-4 Meson gun) to roll 4+ to hit, modified by +2 (target size), -3 (computer difference) -8 (agility), so a 13+ at long range and 11+ at short range, but even if they hit, they must overcome the meson screen, that would need a 10+, modified by -3 for computer difference: the Trigress is impervious to their MG.

Meanwhile, the Tigress would need a 4+ to hit with his own MG, with a -7 for agility but +3 for coputer difference (and +2 if at short range), while it will overcome their Meson Screens (at most rated 6 at TL 14) on a 3+ (modified by +3 due to computer difference): one Zho cruiser out every 2 turns.

For missiles, situation is likely, as the Zho missiles cannot overcome the Nuclear Damper of the Tigress, while the huge number of missile batteries of the Tigress will wreak havoc among the Zho cruisers.

Result, Tigress wins.

As for Eurisko, as I said time ago in another thread, just by giving each side a few officers with high Ship Tactics and Pilot skill in any TCS squadron, I guess the situation would be likely, as the Tigress will benefit from it always, while eurisko's missile boats would seldom do (and here the Tigress missiles would again wreac havoc among them, more than the MG).

And see that I don't twist about HG2 rules at all, just with the TCS ones by simply giving some higher quality officers to each side (so maintining the balance).

 

[mike wightman]

Works for me - those crew skill rules are there for a reason

 

[McPerth]

Works for me - those crew skill rules are there for a reason

Sure, but seldom remembered about and used

 

[Tobias]

for the 20 Zho cruisers vs the Tigress, see that those cruisers are unlike to be led by such rare officers

Actually, one of them is exactly as likely to be led by such a rare officer as the Tigress is. To assume that such officers are only assigned to large dreadnoughts because large dreadnoughts are more valuable than cruisers because large dreadnoughts are often led by such officers... you can see the circular logic, yes?

Also, assuming that the cruiser commanders (even some of them) have Ship Tactics-3 instead of Ship Tactics-2 throws the whole calculation out of the window.

Also also, with the huge (too huge IMHO) advantages a higher computer factor due to TL alone gives, proving that under very rare circumstances a higher TL dreadnought can defeat an equal tonnage number of cruisers doesn't really prove much. If the enemy ships are TL 15 (which the Zhodani, as I apparently need to repeat ad infinitum, canonically have some capability of) or even just have TL 15 computers (the refitting of which, by TCS rules, is comparably a trivial affair) the whole calculation goes straight out of the next window.

Also also also, if instead of ~25 Factor-G cruisers we assume 10 Factor-S Vrapkenchkinj-class light battlecruisers from PPF (56 kdtons each) with Ship Tactics-3 each, then the Tigress' chance of surviving one round even at long range is ~36%, and at short range it's ~6% - nota bene, without any computer upgrade shenanigans.
And the Vrapkenchkinj certainly isn't an optimized vessel for this situation, mostly because its abysmally low armor leaves it vulnerable to nuclear missiles. If I were to downgrade their maneuver drive to 4, I could uparmor them to a degree that would eliminate the possibility of crew hits, and thus reduce nuclear missiles to a mere wheapon-whittling down nuisance - which the Tigress doesn't have enough of to significantly affect all cruisers' spinal mounts quickly enough.
If I were allowed to reduce them to jump-2 as a concession towards the lower TL, the question would be settled anyway: Uparmor them to factor E with agility 5, or to factor 8 with agility 6.

BUT this whole discussion, with its well-trodden paths, only shows me once more why I don't like HG2's combat system: It's not a game, it's an exercise in statistics. None of the things mentioned above have anything to do with tactical choices made during gameplay. Nor does any of it paint a vivid image of space battles. For me, HG2 thus simply fails in two things I want from an RPG-connected wargame: Interesting tactical choices and evocation of a fictional universe. It delivers (barely) on suspense through uncertainty. And as this thread has shown, the final thing I want from such a game - an organic explanation of how military matters work in the fictional universe - is mostly a failure as well.
And finally, it's a clunky mess to play, involving either hundreds of dice rolls each turn, or statistical calculations which kill any suspense for good. (HG1 being much better in this regard as well.)

 

[Condottiere]

1. Warships are a balance of capability and cost, compromised somewhere between firepower, mobility and protection.

2. Dreadnoughts by definition don't really compromise, and the Tigress adds an extra capability by the addition of a carrier strike group.

3. This would make sense if there were some kind of bottlenecks, whether limited numbers of jump drives, spinal mounts and/or slips. Or even a personnel crunch of selected specialties.

4. Furthermore, mobility is divided into strategic, operational and tactical. At J3, it would take quite a while to reinforce the frontier with additional Tigresses.

5. With a hard crust defensive strategy, having them deployed right in the teeth of the most likely axis of attack solves the operational lag.

 

[McPerth]

Actually, one of them is exactly as likely to be led by such a rare officer as the Tigress is. To assume that such officers are only assigned to large dreadnoughts because large dreadnoughts are more valuable than cruisers because large dreadnoughts are often led by such officers... you can see the circular logic, yes?

This single ship would have to hit the Tigress (4+, -8 per agility, increased by the pilot, +2 per size, -1 per computer difference, so 11+, 9+ if short range), and then overcome the Meson Screen (10+, -1 per computer difference, so 11+), so having about 0.7% of possibilities to affect him, 2.3% at short range, while the Tigress would hit him on a 11+(9+ at short range, and that assumes it also has a pilot 5) and overcome the Meson screen on a 2+, while the missiles (the Tigress has plenty of them) would hit on a 8+ (10+ at short range) and overcome the nuclear damper (assuming level 6, the maximum for TL 14) on a 6+...

Also, assuming that the cruiser commanders (even some of them) have Ship Tactics-3 instead of Ship Tactics-2 throws the whole calculation out of the window.

Off course that's a matter of assumption (and so quite dangerous), but I asume that such officers are rare enough as most 20 Kdt shils don't usually have them. IIRC there are 8 Tigress (1 squadron) per sector, that's why I told as having 8 such officers per sector, IDK how many 20 Kdt ships are in a sector, but I guess not all of them (in fact few of them if any) would be led by a captain with Ship Tactics high enough to matter...

Also also, with the huge (too huge IMHO) advantages a higher computer factor due to TL alone gives, proving that under very rare circumstances a higher TL dreadnought can defeat an equal tonnage number of cruisers doesn't really prove much. If the enemy ships are TL 15 (which the Zhodani, as I apparently need to repeat ad infinitum, canonically have some capability of) or even just have TL 15 computers (the refitting of which, by TCS rules, is comparably a trivial affair) the whole calculation goes straight out of the next window.

The Zhodani have some TL 15 capability, but not enough to upgrade their fleet, so the Tigriss are asumed to engage mostly Tl 14 ships at most, also according to canon...

Also also also, if instead of ~25 Factor-G cruisers we assume 10 Factor-S Vrapkenchkinj-class light battlecruisers from PPF (56 kdtons each) with Ship Tactics-3 each, then the Tigress' chance of surviving one round even at long range is ~36%, and at short range it's ~6% - nota bene, without any computer upgrade shenanigans.
And the Vrapkenchkinj certainly isn't an optimized vessel for this situation, mostly because its abysmally low armor leaves it vulnerable to nuclear missiles. If I were to downgrade their maneuver drive to 4, I could uparmor them to a degree that would eliminate the possibility of crew hits, and thus reduce nuclear missiles to a mere wheapon-whittling down nuisance - which the Tigress doesn't have enough of to significantly affect all cruisers' spinal mounts quickly enough.
If I were allowed to reduce them to jump-2 as a concession towards the lower TL, the question would be settled anyway: Uparmor them to factor E with agility 5, or to factor 8 with agility 6.

In this case the best way would be to keep the Tigris in reserve and, if the armor of the Vrapkenchkinj is as low as you say (I don'tknow its exact stats) to send the fighters (the Tigress has plenty of them). Assuming they (being heavy fighters) are equiped with computer 9 (so overcoming the tactics advantage), even if they are armed with Plasers they are likely to downgrade them over time (probably more so than if armed with missiles or Blasers, as the missiles would all of them have to overcome the nuclear damper, while lasers will overcome the sandcaster batteries by sheer weight of numbers, and the blazers lack the -2 to damage.

Off course, here we're assuming no other ships are present, as they would alter the equation one way or another...

BUT this whole discussion, with its well-trodden paths, only shows me once more why I don't like HG2's combat system: It's not a game, it's an exercise in statistics. None of the things mentioned above have anything to do with tactical choices made during gameplay. Nor does any of it paint a vivid image of space battles. For me, HG2 thus simply fails in two things I want from an RPG-connected wargame: Interesting tactical choices and evocation of a fictional universe. It delivers (barely) on suspense through uncertainty. And as this thread has shown, the final thing I want from such a game - an organic explanation of how military matters work in the fictional universe - is mostly a failure as well.
And finally, it's a clunky mess to play, involving either hundreds of dice rolls each turn, or statistical calculations which kill any suspense for good. (HG1 being much better in this regard as well.)

HG2 (I don't have acess to HG1) has its flaws, of course, and I also said many times that I miss some way to resolve the fleet's combat without needing to ressort to statistical system due toe the sheer muber of rolls involved.

 

[Tobias]

while the Tigress would hit him

Or, more likely, any of the other 25+ cruisers. Unless of course, we take the magic ability to know the exact capabilities not only of every enemy ship, but also of their crews as gospel, which brings us straight back to my problems with HG2.

Off course that's a matter of assumption (and so quite dangerous), but I asume that such officers are rare enough as most 20 Kdt shils don't usually have them.

As I said, that's circular logic.

The Zhodani have some TL 15 capability, but not enough to upgrade their fleet,

Actually, rules-wise, refitting TL 15 computers to all capital ships is something trivial enough that you would expect it to have happened for the entire fleet a few years after the inauguration of the first TL 15 starport.

In this case the best way would be to keep the Tigris in reserve and, if the armor of the Vrapkenchkinj is as low as you say

[Using the actual heavy fighter designs of S9.]
If the fighter (with their effective Computer-6) pilots have Ship Tactics skills of 2 or less, they cannot hit the cruisers with either missiles or lasers at any range. If they do have Ship Tactics-3 (as assumed for the cruiser captains), they can with missiles at long range, on a 12.
Even if all of the pilots had Ship Tactics-3 (just for sake of argument), that means out of 300 fighters, about 8 missiles would hit on average. A Vrapkenchkinj has 14 bearing sand, energy and laser batteries, and the fighter missiles have no chance of penetrating any of them. And when by some chance 15 or more missile batteries do hit, we are looking at one or two weapon-1 or fuel-1 results.
Meanwhile, the cruisers' lasers and missiles, aided by their better computers, will size-crit their way through the fighters unhindered.

Assuming they (being heavy fighters) are equiped with computer 9

That is not actually possible. The design of the heavy fighter is in S9: They have model 7 computers acting as model 6 (due to lack of a bridge.) And at 50 tons, you simply cannot fit a larger computer and the supporting power plant. Not even a model 8 computer (which would again be downgraded to effective 7) is possible.
If you built a fighter of 95 tons, at TL 15 you can theoretically fit a model 9 computer, a small craft bridge and a triple pulse laser.
So assuming you can achieve computer parity against better captained ships this way, you hit on an 11+ at short range, and penetrate sand on a 12. (Talking about the actual Vrapkenchkinj - the proposed version with J2, M6 and armor 8 would only be hit on a 12.) That would, for 150 fighters (as many as Tigress could carry of the larger ones, discounting the larger necessary launch tubes for the moment) result in one hit on one cruiser every 3 combat turns - 3 combat turns being one hour. These fighters would literally need to blast away incessantly for days on end to even nibble at the cruisers' weapons in any appreciable way - damage which the cruisers could easily repair by switching into the reserve one at a time.

To make a long story short: In HG2, fighters are bloody useless! I wouldn't object to fighters being only useful in certain roles - in fact I'd applaud that because I don't particularly like Star Wars style fighter pewpewpew; but in HG2, they are completely superfluous in every tactical situation - except the highly artificial game idiosyncracy of front line sacrifical lamb.

 

[McPerth]

Or, more likely, any of the other 25+ cruisers. Unless of course, we take the magic ability to know the exact capabilities not only of every enemy ship, but also of their crews as gospel, which brings us straight back to my problems with HG2.

I was thinking more in spliting the missile fire among the cruisers. The Tigress has 430 missile batteries, what means 215 bearing. That means over 10 batteries to each cruiser, enough to damage them somewhat each turn...

As I said, that's circular logic.

Depending on how rare do you asume the Ship Tactics skill to be. personally, I assume skill (any skill) over 3 is quite rare, and Ship tactics skill is not easy to obtain...

Actually, rules-wise, refitting TL 15 computers to all capital ships is something trivial enough that you would expect it to have happened for the entire fleet a few years after the inauguration of the first TL 15 starport.

As canon is, the Zhodani fleet is TL 14 (and so are their computers). While I understand your logic, the Imperium aslo has some TL 16 planets (though I guess quite less than MT showed), so the same logic could be applied, leaving us where we were (a +/-1 reflective modifier in favor of the Imperium).

 

[Tobias]

As canon is, the Zhodani fleet is TL 14

Actually, AFAIK there are no CT canon Zhodani capital ships, are there? Nor are there in MT, nor in TNE. Nothing in T20 either. GURPS Traveller does mention that some Zhodani ships are GTL 12 (= TL 15.) Are there any in MgT?
There are several Zhodani capital warships with HG2 stats for PP:F, and the fluff text indeed does mention refitting of TL 15 electronics to some of them. But it's a little cheap for me to bring that up in this context, considering that I wrote them.
And of course, CT canon is crystal clear about the maximum Imperial Navy TL being 15 (and in any case, HG2 does not include any higher TL equipment other than black globes.)

 

[mike wightman]

Why the fixation on TL15? HG2 covers combat at TLs from 7-15

Fighters are very useful at lower TLs, they become useless at the higher TLs.

HG is actually very cleverly designed so that fleets change in nature over the TLs.

 

[mike wightman]

Actually, AFAIK there are no CT canon Zhodani capital ships, are there? Nor are there in MT, nor in TNE. Nothing in T20 either. GURPS Traveller does mention that some Zhodani ships are GTL 12 (= TL 15.) Are there any in MgT?
There are several Zhodani capital warships with HG2 stats for PP:F, and the fluff text indeed does mention refitting of TL 15 electronics to some of them. But it's a little cheap for me to bring that up in this context, considering that I wrote them.
And of course, CT canon is crystal clear about the maximum Imperial Navy TL being 15 (and in any case, HG2 does not include any higher TL equipment other than black globes.)

It's also crystal clear on the Zhodani navy being TL14, the FFW board game. Perhaps you should have checked your facts before writing something as fluff text that messes with canon?

To quote CT Zhodani AM:

The tech level of the Navy being joined is determined. The
Zhodani Consulate operates at tech levels 12, 13, and 14 (throw
1d: 1 or 2= 12; 3 or 4= 13; 5 or 6= 14). Regional (Subsector)
Navies operate at tech levels 11 through 14 (TL= 10 + 1 D;
maximum 14). System (Planetary) Navies operate at tech levels
9 through 14 (TL= 8 + 1D).

 

[Carlobrand]

Twenty ATGM infantry sections versus one tank is a fairer analogy ... The setting details are Imperial propaganda based on prior experience, they haven't fought a TL15 enemy yet so the flaws in big battle ships aren't as obvious.

And if I were looking for analogies, that would be a good one. Point is that any comparison (or analogy) depends on the underlying assumptions. High Guard II's underlying assumption is that the meson beam is a deadly shipkiller. If there's an analogy to be made, compare the meson with the WW-II era fighters that changed the paradigm of war by delivering their deadly cargoes under or over the target's armored belt, against which the only effective defense was a "screen" of fighters to stop those deadly cargoes before they reached the ship. Note that a consequence of that paradigm shift was that people stopped thinking of battleships as uber-weapons; indeed, they stopped building the things after WW-II.

On the other hand, in the Traveller milieu the meson has been around for centuries. Even allowing that the Impies have a comfortable technological lead and a tendency toward conservatism, they've been dealing with the reality of enemy mesons exploding in the hearts of their ships for half a millenium. The meson spinal appears at TL11, is quite effective at TL12, and - even given a tech level advantage - the TL12-13 meson screens offer only marginal protection against them. There's really no excuse for building Tigresses and Kokirraks and Plankwells 500 years after the events of the First Frontier War and the subsequent civil war would have adequately illustrated the weakness of large ships against meson-armed opponents.

The point, as I said, is that there is a conflict between the underlying assumptions of the game and the underlying assumptions of the milieu, one that does not lend itself to easy explanation.

... Or rather, the setting designers didn't recognise these issues because they didn't have 30 odd years to pick the book apart. ...

Bullseye. If I have the dates right, Supplement 9 would have completed development before the tournaments highlighted the design issues, and I seriously doubt the folk who designed the ships were playtesting them. Nonetheless, whether it's 30 years or 1, we're left with a conflict between the two. What we do about it, if anything, is up to us. We can do absolutely nothing and treat the game and milieu as entirely different beasties if we want. However, that doesn't mean the problem isn't there, nor does it end the desire on many of our parts for a game system that reflects the realities of the milieu.

That's kind of the part that irritates me most. Okay, High Guard II came out and, whoopsie, it doesn't support the milieu. C'est la vie. But then they go and make a new space-war game system and new milieu in MegaTraveller - and the two STILL conflict with each other. That was just - well, I don't want to insult the people involved, but ? What the heck were they thinking?

 

[McPerth]

Why the fixation on TL15? HG2 covers combat at TLs from 7-15

Fighters are very useful at lower TLs, they become useless at the higher TLs.

HG is actually very cleverly designed so that fleets change in nature over the TLs.

But this thread is about Tigress Battleships, not about HG2 (albeit it has digressed a bit), and Tigress is TL 15

 

[Vladika]

Fighters are very useful at lower TLs, they become useless at the higher TLs.

Fighters DO have a place at TL15, though it is a niche situation. They are not Front Line, First Wave though.

HG is actually very cleverly designed so that fleets change in nature over the TLs.

If only others could adapt to that! Look at real life; Battleships are GONE, History, Toast:toast:. Cruisers are merging into Frigates (USN for a while called to many Frigates Cruisers), Destroyers and Cruisers.:CoW:

Carriers may,or may not, have seen their day. Littoral Combat Ships seem to be popular, but untested.

All of the above was due to SHIFTING TECH LEVELS, just like in Traveller HG2!

 

[Carlobrand]

I know I'm becoming a pest insisting on it, but, once again, I believe the key factor here is crew quality. ...

You're not a pest; I like that idea. It's just that it doesn't hold together very long after the start of a war. Win or lose, your best crews take casualties and, as the war progresses, you've got fewer of them and more of the recruits that have been coming up the pipeline to replace them. It is true that good people can win wars with bad equipment, where no amount of good equipment can win wars if the user lacks of skills or will. It is also true that wars tend to eat good people. If your ship takes a fuel-tank-shattered result and your side loses that battle, your good people are POWS and your side is drafting in a mothballed ship with whatever replacement crew they can scratch up. For that reason, I remain convinced that it can't answer why the Imperium would hold onto an antiquated paradigm centuries after experience showed it was obsolete.

Now, deal with that fuel-tank-shattered problem, and maybe we can make a go of it. The crew hit issue's already been addressed. If the ship can get home despite its hurts, TL15 medicine might bring a lot of those casualties back to duty, and TL15 machinery will certainly restore the ship to fighting trim, where no amount of tech will bring back a smaller ship that vaporized under fire from a massive gun that significantly exceeded its size rating. On the other hand, if your long-term success depends on your mad scramble to evacuate as many of the top-gun pilots and gunners as you can each time one of your oversized Maginot Lines rolls belly up with the all-too-frequent shattered fuel tank result, then your odds of victory in war are not good.

 

[Carlobrand]

Why the fixation on TL15? HG2 covers combat at TLs from 7-15

Fighters are very useful at lower TLs, they become useless at the higher TLs.

HG is actually very cleverly designed so that fleets change in nature over the TLs.

Agreed, and if the milieu could be made to reflect that, everything would be copacetic. I've got no problem with, "Dreadnoughts are a relic of a long-past era; we don't use them anymore." Unfortunately, the Imperium is TL15, the Imperium does not reflect that evolution, and to be perfectly honest it's just plain easier to change the game than to change everything that's written about the milieu.

 

[Tobias]

Why the fixation on TL15?

Well, for one, because the thread was originally about a TL 15 design. In a wider sense, because TL 15 is heavily implied to be the standard for the military force that features most prominently in canon sources and in most classic era campaigns, namely the Imperial Navy.

 

[Tobias]

It's also crystal clear on the Zhodani navy being TL14, the FFW board game.

It doesn't say that anywhere in FFW to my knowledge. And yes, I know the AM character generation rules, thank you, but other information from canon or semi-canon sources (GURPS for example) should be considered as well.

In any case: The fact that you can construe a "win" for Tigress against equal tonnage of one specific, non-optimized type of lower-tech cruiser by giving it massive advantages in other areas does not exactly make the case of the design fluff matching the game system!
Even if you somehow insist that the J36G, Meson-T, near-maximum protection dreadnought is a sensible ship type to use: A well-designed example of this type would be far smaller.

P.S.: Funny thing by the way... all you guys, and even myself consistently based all calculations on the Tigress having Meson Screen-9 - which it doesn't. It has Meson Screen-7, which against small meson guns adjusts its chances of survival downwards rather drastically.
P.P.S.: Anyway - this whole thing confirms my problems with HG2, and gives me a handy new phrase to express them. HG2 is a game in which victory and defeat are determined by internet discussions of its minutiae instead of actually playing it.

 

[Jame]

Fighters DO have a place at TL15, though it is a niche situation. They are not Front Line, First Wave though.



If only others could adapt to that! Look at real life; Battleships are GONE, History, Toast:toast:. Cruisers are merging into Frigates (USN for a while called to many Frigates Cruisers), Destroyers and Cruisers.:CoW:

Carriers may,or may not, have seen their day. Littoral Combat Ships seem to be popular, but untested.

All of the above was due to SHIFTING TECH LEVELS, just like in Traveller HG2!

I would posit that most space fleets would have mostly small to mid-range ships, e.g. for Traveller lots of Type Ts, Broad's Words, Kinunirs and ships up to 50,000 tons, and a few Star Destroyer-type ships for fleet actions. Mostly for system-denial purposes, e.g. a bunch of Type Ts with two Broad's Words and a Kinunir sniping at enemy vessels to prevent them from landing troops and forcing vessels to withdraw for repairs.

I know very little of the Tigress, save that it's on the cover of GT: Starships.

 

[McPerth]

P.S.: Funny thing by the way... all you guys, and even myself consistently based all calculations on the Tigress having Meson Screen-9 - which it doesn't. It has Meson Screen-7, which against small meson guns adjusts its chances of survival downwards rather drastically.

You're rigth about our assumption of it havin Meson Screen 9. In fact, I don't have access to Sup9 (I read it time ago) and I based most of my posts in the variant presented by Carlobrand in post 131, not even realizing that on it the Tigress does not have Meson Screen at all (I guess a typo).

I agree though, that without maximum computer and meson screen for its TL, a battleship is worthless in combat in HG2.