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Subsector Fleet make-up in 1105

intresting, thats the first time i've seen figures quoted for CT on what the "standard" ammo loads were. I take it sandcasters also had 7 turns of fire? i normally figure 1 ton of ammo per tube when i am building MgT ships (12 missles or 20 standcaster rounds.)

now, more improtantly, since i don't play with HG rules, do big ships normally live though 7 turns of a "equal" battle? i get the feeling that ships are very binary, in the sense they are either unharmed or somebody hit them with a spinal and they are out of the fight, with no real in between states. Does a battleship need to be able to fire for 7 turns, would that extra magazine space be wasted as it wouldn't expect to live long enough to shoot those extra missles.
 
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intresting, thats the first time i've seen figures quoted for CT on what the "standard" ammo loads were. I take it sandcasters also had 7 turns of fire? i normally figure 1 ton of ammo per tube when i am building MgT ships (12 missles or 20 standcaster rounds.)

A sand canister is the same size as a missile, and yes, a Sandcaster holds 3 ready.

Note that the 12 extra is for the gunner's compartment - if the turret isn't a triple launcher, it can have more than 7 battery-rounds. A double launcher is 9 battery-rounds, and a single launcher is 15. (Note that it's only launchers - missile or sand - that matter - the lasers don't need the canister space.)

Take, for example, the classic 4 turret type T. Typically, it's 2 triple missiles, and 2 triple lasers. It's got a total of 42 missiles. If you go with 2x(2x Las +1x ML) + 2x(1x Las + 2x ML), you go from 42 to 66 missiles, don't change the cost, and increase from 7 rounds to 9 rounds of 6 and 6 more rounds of 2 missiles.
 
What about the "up to 19,999dt" missile platforms? (I'm deliberately not calling them escorts, frigates, destroyers or cruisers so as to not derail the question. ...)

Well, if the world's navies can't agree on what a frigate is, no great surprise we can't either. Pocket cruiser? Battle destroyer? Missile cruiser? Siege frigate?

...Missiles pack a huge wallop in all of the various Traveller rules and for those ships a spinal is both unnecessary and adds vastly to costs, due to Power Plant if nothing else. ...

A spinal is often a one-hit kill, therefore it pays to spread your missile "eggs" among as many "baskets" as possible so they don't all get broke in that one hit. At about a thousand dTons, most of the vitals are percentage-based and you earn your first bay. At 2000 dTons, you lose an important edge in size. Therefore, I find the ideal missile bombardment platform to be in the 1000-1999 dT range, preferably as small as possible while still mounting a full array of weapons to absorb weapons hits and keep the missile bay at strength - 1400-ish seems to be a happy medium. Building a larger ship for more missile bays is just building something that's easier to hit with more weapons to go silent when it does get hit.

You can design a very effective destroyer escort in the 1400-1800 dT range: agile, good jump range, heavily armored, with that one missile bay, inexpensive so you can have lots of them to minimize the effects of meson fire, its role to escort the capital ships and to survive heavy fire just long enough for the capital ships to make their escape in a retreat.

You could design a larger ship, a destroyer in the 3000-5000 dT range, say, or even larger, but having made it a somewhat easier and higher value target, I wouldn't take it up against capital ships as an escort. I'd give it roles where I needed the larger size but where it wasn't likely to encounter the big guns, maybe have it flying solo in reconnaissance missions or deep commerce raiding. I'd use the extra space to have it carry troops and fighters, make it an inexpensive multi-purpose platform, but I'd still prefer it small so I can have them cover more ground and don't lose as much when one is lost.

I don't really have a combat role for something in the 10,000 to 19,999 dT range, with or without a spinal mount, not that couldn't be more effectively done by a squadron of destroyer escorts or a division of destroyers. 19,000 dT makes for a serviceable if lightly armored light cruiser but, as you point out, you pay a stiff price for the spinal. However, putting all your eggs in a 19,000 kT missile platform is not an improvement, not when you can build 4 or 5 good destroyers or ten DE's who can run the same missions it could run without the same degree of vulnerability to meson fire.

A missile turret in CT has enough missiles for seven turns of fire (triple launcher has 9 missiles, the turret can store a further 12 according to SS3).

If you want to add ammo rules have 7 tally marks and cross them off as you use the missiles. ...

A dTon is, what, 135 missiles?

The classic Book-2/SS3 arrangement is one missile tri-turret with its 9 missiles and then the 12 extras and a crew position. I take that as the civilian norm. However, in High Guard there are these batteries of up to 10 turrets run from one crew position. Seems to me you could extrapolate from that to come up with more than 7 battery-rounds for your turrets. Me, I'd consider 20 battery rounds for a triple launcher if I were going to impose an ammo-tracking rule. On the other hand, one could as easily imagine the other half-dTon per turret being some sort of delivery system for getting missiles from some cargo hold to the missile turret, and then calculate on the basis of 135 missiles per dTon of available ammo space.

Only problem is that missiles, despite their supposed power, lose it when you actually have to account for them. Burning through 30 missiles at a salvo, you can easily use up a couple of dTons of missiles for every hit you manage, meaning you'd either run out quick or have to bring missile transports along, either option significantly reducing the usefulness of missiles (and incidentally elevating the importance of spinal mount capital ships). And, if you go with the Trav price for the things, it can be more than the cost of a dreadnought to take a dreadnought out of the fight with missiles; when it costs you more to neutralize a target than it costs him to field it, the war is not going your way.
 
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And it's not just the cost of the missiles themselves. If combattants actually expend missiles and don't get them replaced by the Missile Fairy, they have to be accompanied by ammunition carriers, which have to be built and maintained. And missiles have to be transported from the factories to naval bases so that empty ammunition carriers can jump the and fill up again, which requires a transportation fleet and storage facilities. All of which costs money.


Hans
 
Three dee printing, with belters harvesting local asteroids.

With enough time, you could even manufacture battlecruisers; sadly, microjumps still would take a week.
 
World power navies have always had extensive supply ship networks, I would expect the IN to have the same. A network of supply ships etc.

There is also the adventure possibility for your free trader, during the FFW you are drafted to carry missiles to a drop point.

IMTU the IN has a network of empty hex naval bases, and numerous calibration point supply dumps.
 
World power navies have always had extensive supply ship networks, ...

Maybe, but if the U.S. Navy could only count on one Harpoon out of a hundred hitting its target, and that one did nothing more than take out an opposing weapon mount, then I suspect they'd be looking for more effective solutions rather than having a freighter shadow every cruiser.

If missiles require resupply and succeed at such an abysmally low rate, then missiles are no longer an effective arm against capital ships. They're still useful for planetary bombardment and taking out fighters and small ships that can't mount the needed defenses, just as we still use cannon on warships. However, the dynamic changes: the cost of a dreadnought is about a million nuclear missiles, only about a thousand of which do any good and that only to persuade the dreadnought to stand back for a bit patching fuel tanks and rigging temporary repairs to weapons before coming right back in for more. Attrition favors the armored ship firing energy weapons for free over the missile battery that spends a small fortune to accomplish nothing more than buying a few hours or days before it has to do it again.
 
If missiles require resupply and succeed at such an abysmally low rate, then missiles are no longer an effective arm against capital ships.

against equal tech ships, yes. but the zhodani are one level below imperial thus missiles still play a trememdous role.

also while missiles may not be effective against a properly armored ship they do drive away cruisers and force line-of-battle ships to armor up and thus be more expensive.
 
Clearification

OK
I have seen a lot of helpful answers (and a few less so) and decided I should add some parameters for clarification.
I am looking to build a sector fleet for Nicosia (because my Count Patent of Nobility resides there) and any other subsector where I hold a patent (I want to know what is available for offense and defense before/during the rebellion).
And then break it down for each subsector (and eventually fill in the reserve fleets from the leftovers).

So far this discussion has helped me in by defining what each subsector should have.
1. All Sector fleet ships will be TL 14/15 and have the same jump capability (at the least in each subsector they will).
2. A full squadron of capital ships (3 to 8 dreadnaughts) in each subsector.
3. Enough support ships packed with missiles and speed to screen, perform reconnaissance and do severe damage to the enemy capital ships.
4. If missile ships are not used for escort duty, spinal weapon ships will be.
5. Mission specific support ships on hand (medical, troop transport, cargo/logistics ships)
6. Carrier ships (with fighters) only to perform actions against lightly armed and armored enemy (pirate fleets) or to support ground/planet side actions.
7. Between 50 and 60 of the various support craft noted above.
8. Reserve fleets will be TL 13/14 (anything under TL13 will be obsolete/mothballed/museum/training only)
9. Overwhelming firepower is IN SOP.
10. Missile cost effectiveness/ damage output considerations must be made before designing any fleet operations.

60 support ships firing 18 missiles each = 1080 missiles.
If only 10% get through then 108 missiles will damage the enemies ships.
Is that enough to take out enemy capital ships?
 
2. A full squadron of capital ships (3 to 8 dreadnaughts) in each subsector.

are there shipyards capable of building and maintaining this? as an aside most people don't want to get into this level of detail but some find it ... rewarding or necessary or relevant.

If only 10% get through then 108 missiles will damage the enemies ships.
Is that enough to take out enemy capital ships?

this depends entirely on your combat ruleset. with hg2, no. with mine, yes. with something else, who knows. if you are building all of this entirely for background color then you may simply specify "yes" or "no" and leave it at that, and there's nothing wrong with that - after all life is short and there are only so many hours in the day. if you intend actually to fight such a fleet then you will need to consult the combat ruleset you intend to use.
 
Rules

I am building this so I will have a basic idea of what support is in each subsector in case of invasion/rebellion/civil war or dressing for a TNE setting (with lost of scrapped warships which may have a gem or two which could be repaired and used to strengthen the 4I)
Also:
I found a copy of a Megatraveller book "Fighting ships of the shattered Imperium" which will also give me ideas and directions for building this fleet. I bought it for only $7 plus shipping.
 
8. Reserve fleets will be TL 13/14 (anything under TL13 will be obsolete/mothballed/museum/training only)

Or sold as suplus to wither planetary navies (or allied clinet states of lower TL) or, once disarmed, to commercial companies that can see an opportunity to buy some medium to large ships for a fine Price (akin the Azhanti class cruisers sold).

And see they can still be of some use depending on the part of the Imperium they are in (a TL12 ship can make a good stand against Sword Worlds fleet, whoe TL should be 11-12 if has to be sustained by the member worlds).
 
YES!

Or sold as suplus to wither planetary navies (or allied clinet states of lower TL) or, once disarmed, to commercial companies that can see an opportunity to buy some medium to large ships for a fine Price (akin the Azhanti class cruisers sold).

And see they can still be of some use depending on the part of the Imperium they are in (a TL12 ship can make a good stand against Sword Worlds fleet, whoe TL should be 11-12 if has to be sustained by the member worlds).
Those are excellent ideas!
Thanks :D
 
Let us start with the assumption that there are approximately 1,010 ships in a Sector fleet (+/- 10%).
With 1,010 ships per sector then there should be about 63 ships per subsector.
If the fleets of the subsector could be built around either the Battleship Configuration (BatCon with 1 to 3 Battleships and their support ships) or the Cruiser Configuration (CruCon with 6 to 8 cruisers and their support ships) Or Dreadnaught Configuration (a Tigress Class Dreadnaught with their support ships) What other support ships would be included in each subsector fleet?

T20:Grand Fleet and MgT:Sector Fleet are also good resources. SF describes pre-Rebellion SM assets. We had a lot of discussion around this in the Corridor Fleet thread, as you know. Some of it is useful.

I like the TL-12-14 Reserve Fleet assets, however, do to cost some TL15 older assets could find themselves in the Reserve Sector Fleets. Also don't forget Depot assets.
 
According to Rebellion Sourcebook the named sector fleet is nothing more than all the numbered fleets in the sector. The subsector fleet in the sector duke's subsector is probably furnished with better ships than the other numbered fleets and it probably will have ten squadrons where other fleets only have eight or nine squadrons, and Sector HQ probably have a lot more couriers than the average fleet, but there is no such thing as a separate sector fleet on top of the numbered fleets. Hans

Do you really see a Sector Fleet Admiral travelling around in a courier, whilst
the Fleet Admiral has a battleship?

Even, if the setting does not acknowledge it, they will pull rank and acquire themselves a suitable transport and force to support it.

Regards

David
 
Do you really see a Sector Fleet Admiral travelling around in a courier, whilst the Fleet Admiral has a battleship?
No, I see him staying at Sector HQ most of the time and ordering the admiral of the fleet stationed in the subsector where Sector HQ is located to provide him with suitable transport when he has to go somewhere. Every ship that every fleet admiral in his sector commands is his to command.


Hans
 
No, I see him staying at Sector HQ most of the time and ordering the admiral of the fleet stationed in the subsector where Sector HQ is located to provide him with suitable transport when he has to go somewhere. Every ship that every fleet admiral in his sector commands is his to command.


Hans

This goes back to our rank discussion in the Corridor Fleet thread. Admirals at a sector level has assets, possibly a flagship or squadron of the Depot Security Fleet. That being said, the sector admiral could probably move his flag as needed. The question is how long can this admiral afford to be away from his depot HQ?

But sure he also has plenty of Couriers.
 
Admirals at a sector level has assets, possibly a flagship or squadron of the Depot Security Fleet.
That's apparently how Sector Fleet describes it, or as Wil might put it, that's how it is in the Doughertyverse. But from what I've heard quoted from SF, it's quite incompatible with the canonical strength of the Imperial Navy, so I deliberately specified that I was basing my comment on Rebellion Sourcebook.

Sector admirals command groups of fleets, not single battleships. Which is why a sector fleet is composed of the numbered fleets stationed in the sector. I don't suppose that principle is violated beyond belief by assigning him his own battleship or even his own BatRon. I don't think it's necessary, mind you, any more than the British First Lord of the Admiralty needed to have a ship specifically assigned to him, nor likely, for the same reasons the First Lord didn't have one, but if some future author furnished sector admirals with their own battleship, I would mind very much. But when you start talking about a separate sector fleet bigger and nastier than any of the subsector fleets1,it will be organized as several distinct numbered fleets. Call it an average of three numbered fleets, and you're suddenly increasing the IN's numbered fleets from 320 to 380. It's just not compatible with previously published material (e.g. RbS).


1 A handful of cruisers and a couple of battleships, forsooth! Yes, I'm looking at you, Sector Fleet!

That being said, the sector admiral could probably move his flag as needed.
Of course.

The question is how long can this admiral afford to be away from his depot HQ?
I think your view of depots accords them far more importance than is warranted. They're not generally speaking the focus of IN activity, although the one in Corridor may or may not be an exception. A Sector Admiral wouldn't have his headquarter away from the sector capital. And he wouldn't (or at least shouldn't) leave his HQ under any circumstances except the massing of most of or all his fleets. His job is to have the big, broad flexible outlook and to coordinate fleet movements. If a situation arises where he has to assemble a small group of numbered fleets for some purpose, he'd assign one of the junior sector admirals under him to command it. Though I suppose that in a major crisis he could move his HQ to improve communication times.


Hans
 
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3. The difference in TL allows the Imperium to deploy lower numbers of ships to deter naked aggression.
This is accounted for by the fact that the Imperium only spends 0.9% of the GIP (Gross Imperial Product ;)) on its military. And half of that goes to bases. This means that a pocket empire on the Imperium's border can spend proportionally 22 times as much (10%) on its military than the Imperium spends on its (planetary forces of member worlds not included in this).


Hans
 
1. Budget - You could also try and bankrupt your rivals, by inducing an arms race.


2. Flagship - One of the few times I think that a battlecruiser has a role, assuming the CinC is the type that stays behind the lines, rather than insists on being in the middle of the fray (assuming the ship sacrifices armour for longer legs).
 
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