Subsector Fleet make-up in 1105

[Xerxeskingofking]

well, The MgT Imperiums stated purpose is to rule the stars to let the planets thrive in peace, so yhea, military state is fair comment. the nobles are discribed as exercising mostly "soft" power (carrot of trade insentives/tax breaks, stick of sanctions/just taking trade elsewhere) to regulate the interactions of worlds, not as acting like "mini emperors" as you discribed. they still have the right and expectation to assume command in a crisis if needed, though.

So, back to the topic. A subsector fleet is a batron and cruron.

I think the take away point is it's what ever you fancy it to be. the Mgt subsector fleet is stated as being a single cruiser for a flagship, a few Desrons, a load of escorts and whatever it can beg off Sector.

the CT Subsector fleets seem to be much more substanial, form what i gather.

 

[Carlobrand]

...The text explicitly states that the Corridor Sector Fleet is composed of 16 numbered fleets, not 20. The four other fleets stationed in Corridor are clearly not part of the Corridor Sector Fleet (According to RbS, that is). ...

What four other fleets? I just figured the Imperium didn't feel an urge to assign fleets to empty subsectors, but did feel the urge to double strength the bridge between Deneb and the Imperium.

 

[rancke]

What four other fleets? I just figured the Imperium didn't feel an urge to assign fleets to empty subsectors, but did feel the urge to double strength the bridge between Deneb and the Imperium.

"The Imperial Corridor Fleet (appropriately stationed in Corridor sector) is composed of the Imperial 16th, 27th, 41st, and 70th Fleets."[RbS: 26]

"The Corridor [sector]¹ Fleet, actively engaged in border protection along the contested border with the Vargr in Corridor sector, is an active fleet with 16 numbered fleets under its command." [ibid.]​

¹ The whole paragraph is talking about the Imperium's 28 sector fleets.​

It's odd that the Imperium uses two nearly identical names for two different fleets, but there are other examples of the Imperium employing very similar names (e.g. a Duke of Regina and a Marquis of Regina).

And duplicate fleet numbers too, of course. :devil:


Hans

 

[rancke]

The CT Subsector fleets seem to be much more substanial, form what I gather.

Not so much the CT fleets, but RbS mentions 1000 combat vessels (the big combatants) per sector. If we assume (as I do) that this is for a sector with a full 16 subsectors, we get an average of 62½ combat vessels per numbered fleet or a total of around 20,000 combat vessels.

And if you estimate the full cost of 20,000 combat vessels and add 10% for the auxiliaries (which requires making assumptions that some people may not accept), you find that even with the rather expensive 10%-of-original-cost-for-maintenance figures, the Imperium only needs half its canonical navy budget to pay for it all, making it necessary to assume that half the budget goes to support the naval bases.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

Not so much the CT fleets, but RbS mentions 1000 combat vessels (the big combatants) per sector. If we assume (as I do) that this is for a sector with a full 16 subsectors, we get an average of 62½ combat vessels per numbered fleet or a total of around 20,000 combat vessels.

And if you estimate the full cost of 20,000 combat vessels and add 10% for the auxiliaries (which requires making assumptions that some people may not accept), you find that even with the rather expensive 10%-of-original-cost-for-maintenance figures, the Imperium only needs half its canonical navy budget to pay for it all, making it necessary to assume that half the budget goes to support the naval bases.


Hans

Query: what is the source of the canonical budget estimate?

 

[rancke]

Query: what is the source of the canonical budget estimate?

Striker Book 2. Which has admittedly been decanonized, but since it put the average military budget of Imperial member worlds at 3% of GWP (of which 30% goes to the Imperium) and since it's unlikely that a state surrounded by unfriendly and hostile states (Solomani and Zhodani and K'Kree and the Julian League (plus the Aslans and the Vargr, but they don't, or rather shouldn't, count )) would spend less than 0.9% of its gross product on its military, and since they fit well with real life figures, I'm sticking to them.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

Striker Book 2. Which has admittedly been decanonized, but since it put the average military budget of Imperial member worlds at 3% of GWP (of which 30% goes to the Imperium) and since it's unlikely that a state surrounded by unfriendly and hostile states (Solomani and Zhodani and K'Kree and the Julian League (plus the Aslans and the Vargr, but they don't, or rather shouldn't, count )) would spend less than 0.9% of its gross product on its military, and since they fit well with real life figures, I'm sticking to them.


Hans

Hey, when was Striker decanonized??

 

[Dagrill]

Let's not strain the analogy beyond what it was meant to illustrate, namely that commanders-in-chief do not usually command subdivisions of their forces directly, though I'm sure there are examples to the contrary. But usually commanders-in-chief command everything through subordinates. And that's whether they take to the field or stay in their ministerial department (e.g. the British Admiralty in London, the Pentagon in Washington). What they don't do is set up their headquarters in Portsmouth or Clyde or San Diego or anywhere else away from their respective national capitals. Hans

Hans,

You can't use modern analogies for Traveller (it might work with Star trek), but due to communications lag you have to compare with 18/19th century situations, when central government was months out of date with the periphery.

Look at Admiral Hyde-Parker commander in chief west indies, who spent most of his time ashore, but had a flagship almost permanently moored in Kingston harbour, whilst his cruiser went out and earned him a fortune in prize money.
OK he didn't have a bunch of hostile battle fleets breathing down his neck, but it's a better analogy.

Regards

David

 

[savage]

"The Imperial Corridor Fleet (appropriately stationed in Corridor sector) is composed of the Imperial 16th, 27th, 41st, and 70th Fleets."[RbS: 26]

"The Corridor [sector]¹ Fleet, actively engaged in border protection along the contested border with the Vargr in Corridor sector, is an active fleet with 16 numbered fleets under its command." [ibid.]​

¹ The whole paragraph is talking about the Imperium's 28 sector fleets.​

It's odd that the Imperium uses two nearly identical names for two different fleets, but there are other examples of the Imperium employing very similar names (e.g. a Duke of Regina and a Marquis of Regina).

And duplicate fleet numbers too, of course. :devil:


Hans

They are not different fleets. Hence, as Marc (via DonM) eluded in the Corridor Fleet thread, corrections need to be made in numbering and naming. Have you forgotten?

An Imperium Named Fleet is named Imperium "sector name" Fleet or abreviated IN. Therefore, "sector name" Fleet is slang or abreviation like "7th" Fleet instead of United States Navy "7th" Fleet.

 

[savage]

... they still have the right and expectation to assume command in a crisis if needed, though.



I think the take away point is it's what ever you fancy it to be. the Mgt subsector fleet is stated as being a single cruiser for a flagship, a few Desrons, a load of escorts and whatever it can beg off Sector.

the CT Subsector fleets seem to be much more substanial, form what i gather.

The archduke of Corridor assumes authority in the Rebellion per DGP. I will assume that statement is correct since it is supported in Canon.

Now this is an interesting point. I see some disagreement between 2 MgT products. One product, Sector Fleet, should describe the 3I in general. The other product is specific to SM. I suspect your quoting the SM product.

 

[rancke]

They are not different fleets.

Of course they are different fleets. One of them is composed of 16 numbered fleets and the other is composed of four different numbered fleets. How can they possibly not be two different fleets?


Hans

 

[savage]

Of course they are different fleets. One of them is composed of 16 numbered fleets and the other is composed of four different numbered fleets. How can they possibly not be two different fleets?


Hans

Because it is a mistake in the product as (Marc) DonM stated in the other thread. I detect a "spin". :nonono:
:rofl:
:rofl:
:rofl:

 

[rancke]

The archduke of Corridor assumes authority in the Rebellion per DGP.

There is no archduke of Corridor. Most likely not a Duke of Corridor either (it is claimed that sector dukes do not get special titles although there is at leasy one couinterexample). The Duke of Khukish is the sector duke of Corridor. Are you referring to him?


Hans

 

[rancke]

Because it is a mistake in the product as (Marc) DonM stated in the other thread. I detect a "spin". :nonono:
:rofl:
:rofl:
:rofl:

You certainly detect a spin. The one produced by my guiding principle of not changing setting details that can be explained without being changed and, when a change is required, using the smallest necessary. Especially when such a change would make the setting blander and less interesting. Having both a Corridor Sector Fleet and and Corridor Response Fleet is an interesting quirk and eliminating one of them is an unnecessary loss to the setting.

Marc and Don is entitled to change anything they like, of course, but if they changed this one because they thought it had to be a mistake, they were themselves mistaken.

Meanwhile, back at the discussion I'm having, I'm talking about what RbS actually says, not what Marc and Don think it says.


Hans

 

[savage]

There is no archduke of Corridor. Most likely not a Duke of Corridor either (it is claimed that sector dukes do not get special titles although there is at leasy one couinterexample). The Duke of Khukish is the sector duke of Corridor. Are you referring to him?


Hans

Correction. DGP placed a Duke of Corridor in Kaasu. I mentioned that in the Corridor Fleet thread too. Corridor falls under the Archduke of Vland.

I suspect the Duke of Khukish is the subsector duke.

 

[rancke]

Correction. DGP placed a Duke of Corridor in Kaasu. I mentioned that in the Corridor Fleet thread too. Corridor falls under the Archduke of Vland.

I suspect the Duke of Khukish is the subsector duke.

Ah, another anomalous situation. Well, that's fine by me. It adds character to a setting that everything isn't cookie-cutter copies.

I do feel, however, that when you introduce something that contradicts an established rule of thumb, you owe it to the reader to explain the seeming contradiction. A sector duke who is also the leading subsector duke of a sector requires no additional explanation, but a sector duke who isn't himself a subsector duke and who has his sector capital in some other duke's duchy really ought to come with an explanation of how that came about and how that works. Introducing such anomalies without providing appropriate context is sloppy work.


Hans

 

[savage]

... they were themselves mistaken.

Meanwhile, back at the discussion I'm having, I'm talking about what RbS actually says, not what Marc and Don think it says.


Hans

Actually Hans, DGP wrote most of it, so this would be there oops. Since, errata's exist, they clearly prefer a corrected interpretation. It reduces the confusion of refs that refuse to accept the obvious.

Sector Duke's that are also Subsector Duke's. Don't recall seeing that anywhere in canon. How strange. It's like a captain who is also his own first officer, A Governor that is also Lt Governor. Makes very little sense.

 

[rancke]

Actually Hans, DGP wrote most of it, so this would be their oops.

Who wrote it doesn't affect what it says. Please argue against what I actually say.

Since, errata's exist, they clearly prefer a corrected interpretation.

I already answered that.

It reduces the confusion of refs that refuse to accept the obvious.

If that is a dig, I can assure you that I, for one, am not in the least bit confused, nor is what I am reluctant to accept without at least trying to salvage a perfectly viable setting all that obvious.

Sector Duke's that are also Subsector Duke's. Don't recall seeing that anywhere in canon. How strange. It's like a captain who is also his own first officer, A Governor that is also Lt Governor. Makes very little sense.

Like a king of one of the four Irish kingdoms who is also High King of Ireland? Like a European king who is also Holy Roman Emperor?

It makes about as much or as little sense as an emperor who is also an archduke, I should say.

"Duke: The fifth level of noble rank is the duke and is associated with a subsector. The noble is referred to by the title followed by "of" and the subsector name. The power of the duke depends on circumstances and the situation within the sector, but generally one duke within a sector rises to power and comes to be the sector duke, the ruler of that sector. No special title is awarded to a sector duke." [LDNZ:36]​

Delphine of Mora is the Duchess of Mora and the sector duchess of the Spinward Marches.

(GT:Nobles elaborates on this, but the basis is already there in CT material.)

I'm pretty sure all the archdukes are also explicitly said to be sector and subsector dukes, but I could be wrong and I can't be bothered to dig out the references. I'm confident you can't provide any examples of subsector and sector dukes in any of the archdukes' sectors and subsectors, though.


Hans

 

[Chuck Anumia]

Fighting Ships

I found this in the Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium (Pg 9)

BatRon Configuration
3-4 Battleships
1 Tanker
2 Transport ships
3 Scouts
2 Auxiliary ships

CruRon Configuration
5-8 Cruisers
1 Auxiliary ship
2 Scouts
4 Escort class ships

AssaultRon Configuration
1 Cruiser
3 Transport ships
1 Tanker
1 Auxiliary ship
2 Scouts
1 Dromedary
4 Escort class ships

 

[savage]

I found this in the Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium (Pg 9)

BatRon Configuration
3-4 Battleships
1 Tanker
2 Transport ships
3 Scouts
2 Auxiliary ships

CruRon Configuration
5-8 Cruisers
1 Auxiliary ship
2 Scouts
4 Escort class ships

AssaultRon Configuration
1 Cruiser
3 Transport ships
1 Tanker
1 Auxiliary ship
2 Scouts
1 Dromedary
4 Escort class ships

Yes. FSotSI is not popular do to many design mistakes, however, I think the overall view is solid. Also, remember we vary things from sector to sector.